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Old 2007-04-18, 10:26   Link #121
Phantom-Takaya
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To answer your second doubt, guns are expensive here in America. But, it's not difficult to get a job and save money to purchase them. High schoolers at the age of 14 are permitted to get jobs here. At minimum wage and at the maximum permitted hours a minor can work, a high schooler would have enough money to purchase every gun and bullet he had withn at least 3 months. Of course, just because they would have the money to do so doesn't mean they wouldn't have trouble due to gun laws. Now, I'm hearing he's 19 or something around that age, so he's no longer a minor, so he could work full time in a job, so you can imagine how much faster he would have been able to afford those things.

YouTube's always had lots of biased commenters. It's the place where people can flame so easily and extravegantly. It doesn't matter whether it's about race, religion, gender or any other touchy subject, it will be outright spoken about by at least one person there.
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Old 2007-04-18, 12:34   Link #122
Scourge87
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I'm not a religious man, but I did pray for the victims.

This should have never happened.
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Old 2007-04-18, 13:18   Link #123
Vexx
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phantom-Takaya View Post
To answer your second doubt, guns are expensive here in America. But, it's not difficult to get a job and save money to purchase them. High schoolers at the age of 14 are permitted to get jobs here. At minimum wage and at the maximum permitted hours a minor can work, a high schooler would have enough money to purchase every gun and bullet he had withn at least 3 months. Of course, just because they would have the money to do so doesn't mean they wouldn't have trouble due to gun laws. Now, I'm hearing he's 19 or something around that age, so he's no longer a minor, so he could work full time in a job, so you can imagine how much faster he would have been able to afford those things.
Random facts and comments:

AFAIK, most states require the purchaser to be 21 to buy a firearm legally and pass a background check (which still is inadequately implemented IMO).
Firearms dealers have to pass extensive checks and keep records ... the number of dealers have dropped substantially in the last 10 years with all the additional restrictions and regulation.
No supermarket chains sell guns anymore (outside of Wal*mart which is more of a WeSellEverything store than a supermarket) though there are independent general purpose stores that sometimes have a firearms section (in rural areas usually).

One question I do have is that the guy apparently purchased more than a couple of clips to go with his gun. That (though legal) is unusual and should have set the vendor's mental alarm bell off to chat more with the guy. All the vendors I deal with are careful to get to know their purchasers (using banter and small talk) --- they don't *want* to be tagged as "the guy who sold the gun to the perp".

A decent gun in the US will run $400-$1200. A crappy gun can run around $200. Some other banal data:
1) Auto-loaders (sometimes called semi-automatics) require one pull the trigger for each bullet.
2) Fully automatic weapons (rapidfire machineguns, etc.) are strictly regulated and virtually impossible to legally own (the number of licenses is fixed and onerous to maintain).
3) There really is no such thing as an "assault weapon" -- its a bias term used by people who either don't understand weaponry as it is almost always applied to any gun that looks extra scary. I have a shotgun with a pistol grip and foldable stock: those people would characterize that as an assault weapon though it is functionally identical to a goosehunting gun.
The phrase "assault weapon" as used by the military refers to any weapon which can be used to keep the enemy's head down while the infantry approaches the target.
4) Buying ammo requires providing personal information.

The background check system still sucks in this country (poorly connected databases) and is just as often wrong as insufficient. The mental healthcare system has been systematically starved for decades (like much of the infrastructure) and the attitudes and knowledge of the public towards mental health is still very UNinformed.

For that matter, we've got a serious education problem in America that results in poorly informed and poorly educated populace from our youngest to our leaders. This is a problem for the rest of the world because it reflects in our decision-making and permits a manipulative few to misdirect the many.
Beats me if we'll be able to correct it... ... ... ...

edit: I'm listening to some news articles now about the South Korean government "condolence and apologies" ... and the news media and some of the public are misconstruing it because they don't *get* the idea that in a collectivist society you apologize for the actions of someone from your "ingroup" whether or not you had *anything* to do with it. Yet another educational failure (the media is just as uneducated as the population they're serving... ouch).

Last edited by Vexx; 2007-04-18 at 13:31.
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Old 2007-04-18, 19:26   Link #124
ibreatheanime
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The only good thing is that it is spreading awarness of school shootings. More people are aware of the dangers and are making emergency plans to put in place in case a situation like the one at virgina tech arises. Schools are practicing "intruder drills"and students are being informed about school violence.


Sadly like Vexx said there are plenty of people who can't get mental health care, and there will always be people in the world who want to hurt others. So our children should be taught of the dangers of modern society.

Also for people who say things like "I'm glad I don't live in america." I must say there is violence all over the world, violence that makes the virgina tech incident look pale in comparison.

I believe we should try to help troubled people get the help they need, and be prepared for incidents like this. Rather than argue about this tragedy, and point fingers we should try to work together to help prevent future violence.

by the way I have never seen a gun sold in a supermarket...only food.
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Old 2007-04-18, 22:10   Link #125
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Originally Posted by kayos View Post
I doubt it, no one in their right mind is going to chop down an entire tree cause of one bad apple.
Oh there IS. In wisconsin, racsicm towards asian is pretty bad already and now.. I don't know whats going to happen now. I've already recieved criticism at school because of this.

He(Cho) had his reason, and what he did was wrong. I sent my condolences to those that passed away but I do not feel a remorse about this. What was his reason? Rich Kids? You made me do this?
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Old 2007-04-18, 23:03   Link #126
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In my area of wisconsin there is a large hmong community, and if you didn't know the town any better you'd think asians where the only other race besides whites living here, hehe. It does create some friction but I've met many nice hmongs and some bad ones, which goes the same for many of the white people here.

People are social creatures so it's easy to adopt a them vs us kind of perspective which is sad but it's not uncommon. Thankfully my area is pretty peaceful even with the occasional tension.

I feel remorse for the victims but it's mainly because they died for such poor reasons. I have no personal attachement to them but it's hard not to feel sad for the grief this is causing everyone. There's not much to do for that except let time heal the wounds though.
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Old 2007-04-18, 23:59   Link #127
whatever001
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Originally Posted by kayos View Post
Resident alien are legal resident, just like an average citizen. The only difference is that they can't vote, nor run for political office. Every other rights are exactly the same as a citizen.
nah.. there's more, as a legal alien, you can't work for government (which citizenship is a requirement, even in Post Office), you get different coverage on some insurance (e.g. some give the citizen 100% coverage while legal alien only get 85%).
even a legal alien become a US citizen, he/she can't run for presidency thanks to "you're not born here" constitution(hellooo, Mr. Arnold~).
and there's more.. maybe just some little things you will encounter in US that make you feel like "second-class" or even worse... however, we usuallly don't pay too much attention to it until we face by ourselves.. my best bud's girlfriend who's from Bulgeria haven't received her H1B visa this year.. that really make my bud began to think little more about "alien"s.... sorry..these "alien"s are not from Mars, so no need to concern...
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Old 2007-04-19, 23:11   Link #128
kayos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cloudkiller1 View Post
Oh there IS. In wisconsin, racsicm towards asian is pretty bad already and now..
They'll always be racism in certain areas, it's subtle until an event like this happens, then it'll give racists a reason to point finger.

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Originally Posted by whatever001 View Post
nah.. there's more, as a legal alien, you can't work for government (which citizenship is a requirement, even in Post Office), you get different coverage on some insurance (e.g. some give the citizen 100% coverage while legal alien only get 85%).
That's odd, check out the citizenship requirement from the USPS (United State Postal Service) site itself.

Quote:
Employees must be a United States citizen, a lawful permanent resident alien (i.e., possession of a “green card”), a citizen of American Samoa or any other territory owing permanent allegiance to the United States.
The bold meaning a legal resident not citizen. Take my word for it, a legal resident can obtain a gov employment but I'm not sure if the benefits the same, I'll give you that.
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Old 2007-04-19, 23:34   Link #129
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I have always wondered for what reason people are buying semi-automatic or automatic guns? Does it make the "hunting" more pleasurable? Or does it make them more manly? Whatever the reason is, I doubt it will change, or in Rosie's words, it would be futile, so don't even think about it.

Anyway, if the gun companies would have implemented a security system for their products (i.e., connecting to a remote station for working, and only usable after a connection is established, and almost-impossible access for a regular person in a secure red-zone environment), this kind of tragedy wouldn't have happened that easily. And, it was really sad, and unfortunate that, this guy didn't come across any kind of security or any other person who could have contacted the police earlier.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ibreatheanime View Post
by the way I have never seen a gun sold in a supermarket...only food.
I haven't gone to Walmart for a long time, but, I thought they have a hunting section, and I remember rifles on display there.

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Originally Posted by Cloudkiller1 View Post
He(Cho) had his reason, and what he did was wrong. I sent my condolences to those that passed away but I do not feel a remorse about this. What was his reason? Rich Kids? You made me do this?
He seems to be a highly disturbed person, and, he might have understood any kind of small thing as a big threat for him. And, if you cycle that over the long years, when he was "forced" to live among other people who are also disturbed by his presence (and related actions those people might have taken with no obstacle placed in front of them), many times, eventually, one way or another, that might come true. And, even though that person is the guilty one, making that person live within the community that freely despite what was known about him, makes the situation worse. If he was treated, maybe he wouldn't have reached that level, and that tragedy would have avoided.

But, fortunately, since, this is the work of a mentally ill person, for which you might reach the origin of the problem, precautions against similar events in the future is possible.
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Old 2007-04-19, 23:53   Link #130
whatever001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kayos View Post
They'll always be racism in certain areas, it's subtle until an event like this happens, then it'll give racists a reason to point finger.



That's odd, check out the citizenship requirement from the USPS (United State Postal Service) site itself.



The bold meaning a legal resident not citizen. Take my word for it, a legal resident can obtain a gov employment but I'm not sure if the benefits the same, I'll give you that.
http://postofficejobs.info/overview.htm

that's little bit different from my memory.. however, some websites/infos still list citizenship as requirement.. and it's stilll a fact that they can't work for the gov't (also depends on whether post office are considered as part of it, whether the job is direct employment or sub-contracted )
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Old 2007-04-20, 00:43   Link #131
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This kind of brings up unwanted memories of the Ecole Polytechnique shootings in Montreal. We Canadians thought this type of violence could never happen in Canada and it was truly horrible. This whole thing had a similiar vibe to that incident with the perpetrator blaming specific groups for causing this to happen, whereas Marc Lepine specifically blamed women for all of his troubles. I don't really understand it and from reading the local newspaper and interviews with Psychologists at McMaster University where I am a student, they don't seem to either. It's very scary that it seems it could happen anywhere.

Two things here bother me specifically among others. One is that Mr. Lebrescu survived the holocaust only to die in this senseless act of violence and two Jack Thompson was on Fox News the other day trying to put the blame on video games and was using this tragedy as another attempt to bolster his personal agenda. At this point I think only Fox News would take Mr. Thompson seriously.
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Old 2007-04-20, 01:01   Link #132
Vexx
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I consider Lebrescu a first class hero. He *knew* the risk, did the calculations, and took the sacrifice to "save the future" so to speak. I have total admiration for him and any others who made similar calculations in those few minutes. It also sounds like some students really rose up to the occasion after the initial shock. I applaud them. I hope everyone gets a lot of counseling and help because it *is* going to mess with their psyche.

Jack Thompson, otoh, is a blight made extra irrelevant by the likes of this bit of insanity. What a camera-seeking moron... ...
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Old 2007-04-20, 01:08   Link #133
kayos
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Quote:
Originally Posted by whatever001 View Post
http://postofficejobs.info/overview.htm

that's little bit different from my memory.. however, some websites/infos still list citizenship as requirement.. and it's stilll a fact that they can't work for the gov't (also depends on whether post office are considered as part of it, whether the job is direct employment or sub-contracted )
Here, compare your site to the actual government site. I'm not even going to try to explain it anymore. No offense of course.

United State Postal Service employment requirements
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Old 2007-04-20, 01:45   Link #134
whatever001
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Originally Posted by kayos View Post
Here, compare your site to the actual government site. I'm not even going to try to explain it anymore. No offense of course.

United State Postal Service employment requirements
http://www.opm.gov/employ/html/Citiz...tive%20service

Under Executive Order 11935, only United States citizens and nationals may compete for competitive jobs. Agencies are permitted to hire non-citizens only when there are no qualified citizens available. A non-citizen may only be given an excepted appointment and may not be promoted or reassigned to another position in the competitive service, except in situations where a qualified citizen is not available. The non-citizen may be hired only if permitted by the appropriations act and immigration law.

===============
so that's why it's widely known as no-job in the gov't for non-citizen.. just like the term "green card"
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Old 2007-04-20, 09:17   Link #135
kayos
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Right, well anyway we should probably get back on topic, it's about VA Tech Shooting not gov employment rules and requirements.
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Old 2007-04-21, 06:23   Link #136
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It does not surprise me, but it also saddens me, that more than the care and concern for the dead students and their family, certain groups of people keep flaming Koreans for this incident and saying that it's just another example of how batshit and untrustworthy they are or some nonsense like that.

I obviously don't want to take it seriously but when you see the fact that Cho was a Korean being emphasized in an alarming number of opinions (perhaps not in English, but in another language...) it just makes me wonder that a. if they're just flaming, how the hell could they do that for a sitaution like this, and b. do these guys ever think?

I suppose it shouldn't bother me so much, but something stops me from
just brushing it off as the usual garden-variety idiocy on the net when people even go to the extent of saying "America deserved this". What? This sort of thing seriously creeps me out because it reminds me
Spoiler for offtopic:


I guess it's part of humanity after all, but maybe you can attribute it to the safe and even sheltered life I lead that it just horrifies me when I see that side of humans for real.

Leaving gun discussions aside I seriously hope this will wake up counsellors and parents across the world to be a little more observant of their children's emotions and stop them from turning into people who do this sort of thing.

You know, I wasn't even really emotionally affected about this event until today when I started reading the personal blogs of some students on the campus. It also greatly irks me how the media were literally commenting on ljs with contact details and saying "we're interested in your story please contact us" like that. I guess it's par for the course though, and some students didn't mind, plus it's not a bad thing to know their personal opinions but still. Something irks me. It is a bit freaky too, seeing them do that sort of thing.
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Old 2007-04-21, 07:39   Link #137
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Just imagine how the parents of Cho reacted to their son's deed. If I were in their place, I would be shocked and ashamed, thinking, "I never raised my son to massacre people. Where did I go wrong?" In a way, I feel sorry for his parents... Of course, unless they're praising him.
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Old 2007-04-21, 16:01   Link #138
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I don't think any parents would praise the death of their child. A parent can do only so much until it's up to the child's part to pick out their own path, whether it's for good or bad. We all live our own lives after a certain age, some are just mentally weaker than others.

One thing that bothered me was people calling him mentally ill. The guy did it for his reasons, he was sane enough to plan it out and execute it. He may be extremely emotional to the point of taking his anger out on others but he wasn't mentally ill. Just like terrorist suicidal bombings, they planned it out and had their reasons but if a college student goes on a rampage, "Oh he must be mentally ill."

Anyway some people believed he was Muslim for having written "Ismail Ax" on his arm.
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Old 2007-04-21, 16:16   Link #139
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this was a tragic incident indeed...well in this world there is always these kinds of risks where some guy looses it completely and begins killing everyone...its just a ticking time bomb where it can happen any time...and now its just another wait to see what other incidents the future brings ~

just like to say RIP for the dead

not surprisingly there is already a wiki article on cho ~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seung-Hui_Cho
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Old 2007-04-21, 16:33   Link #140
ibreatheanime
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Its terrible that one disturbed guy felt the need to kill 30+ people... people he didn't even know. I feel sympathy for the families of the victims.
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