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Old 2007-04-02, 19:05   Link #1
SeijiSensei
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Why don't peers like me?

Sometimes if I'm seeding a torrent, I'll have no peers. This happens even when I refresh my entry with the torrent. I'll see peers connect, then ignore me and disconnect. I can't imagine I'm not "interesting" to the peers since I have all the pieces. Nor is this a firewalling problem; I have all the correct port forwardings set up to get "NAT OK" from Azureus.

It's just as though the peers look at me then walk away. Bad breath? Not using the right deodorant? It happened again tonight seeding Hataraki Man. There are 17-18 seeds and 7-8 peers, yet none of the peers want to date me.

Maybe it's my age?
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Old 2007-04-02, 19:27   Link #2
WanderingKnight
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Well, 17-18 seeds and 7-8 peers, the seeds/peers ratio is quite high, so it's likely those peers have their download capacity full and are being provided by seeds with very high upload rate.

That's just my wild guess. Or you could try getting a new cologne, and an anti-age treatment, perhaps.
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Old 2007-04-03, 09:17   Link #3
DWKnight
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Seeds never keep connections to other seeds.

If you want a test of your configuration, you could try torrents with significantly more downloaders than seeds and see how that performs.
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Old 2007-04-03, 10:25   Link #4
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DWKnight View Post
Seeds never keep connections to other seeds.
I realize that. I was asking why peers weren't connecting to me when I'm seeding.

Quote:
If you want a test of your configuration, you could try torrents with significantly more downloaders than seeds and see how that performs.
I don't need to test anything; it all works fine. I was asking about how the algorithms work that determine why peers select some seeds and not others. I would have thought that most peers try to connect to as many seeds as possible, even if they're not downloading pieces from those seeds at a specific point in time. I saw peers connect to me, handshake, then walk away, and wondered why.

I think WK had the right answer, that the peers had the all the connectivity they needed already and didn't need any more help from me.
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Old 2007-04-05, 01:24   Link #5
Vexx
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I'm sure there's some nasty papers on torrenting algorithms... but I'll also guess there's sophistication about choosing connections based on the "goodness" of the transfer (latency, maximum offered pipe size, etc).

Torrents are a subset of some very interesting mathematical problems.
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Old 2007-04-05, 10:25   Link #6
Andu
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Just be happy about it. Its like hell on earth when hungry peers eat away all my upload. Irc, web browsers and such can't be used at all.
If you are downloading from a site that requires you to reach a ratio of at least 1.000, just wait. Eventually they'll come to you.
By the way, your problem is exactly what WK described.
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Old 2007-04-05, 11:40   Link #7
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Just be happy about it. Its like hell on earth when hungry peers eat away all my upload. Irc, web browsers and such can't be used at all.
You know there's something called "limiting the upload max speed"... right? If you're having trouble browsing (you most probably have if you're uploading at max), set your max upload to 5k (if using Azureus), then you'll be able to navigate with no problem at all. Remember to set it back at max whenever you're not browsing
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Old 2007-04-11, 09:25   Link #8
Vexx
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Besides, the whole point was that Seiji's question was *seeding* which means his "goodness" factor is high and peers should love him according to torrent algorithm. The speculation is that peers in his cloudlet (clouds are not homogenous) were already maxed or that other deciding factors like latency may have been involved.

Its kind of like watching a Life simulation ... sometimes you get these little isolated pockets for a while....
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Old 2007-04-11, 09:49   Link #9
felix
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@ SeijiSensei
Heh.. can't say I haven't seen that.

Trust me, it means squat if you have all the pieces.. Think about it if you were to design a algoritm for that would you care to connect to people with all the pieces.. wouldn't you rather care to make it so it connects to as many super fast peers that togheter have the full piece.. ehh~

I don't have a bad conection.. but it's not a super connection either, that's why I mostly just super-seed. If I can't help with speed I'll just help with distribution, I ignore the really good seed/peer ratio ones.. since there SS would most likely do more harm then good.
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Old 2007-04-11, 11:52   Link #10
Ledgem
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
I don't have a bad conection.. but it's not a super connection either, that's why I mostly just super-seed. If I can't help with speed I'll just help with distribution, I ignore the really good seed/peer ratio ones.. since there SS would most likely do more harm then good.
It's not recommended to use superseeding unless the torrent faces conditions of few seeders and limited distribution of packets. I'll attempt an explanation:

Super-seeding causes your client to evaluate what pieces of the torrent are currently available, and then it will selectively upload only the rarest packets. This is useful in a new torrent with few seeders: there are very few pieces available in the swarm, and very few sources available to get those packets out. So, by prioritizing the spread of pieces available, it ensures that the swarm can propogate the pieces itself. This is a faster method of jump-starting a torrent as opposed to, say, waiting on a single seeder to release every single piece of the file, when the seeder is simply uploading random pieces to clients.

Why is super-seeding counter-productive in any other situation? Because it isn't useful, and it slows clients down. If all pieces of the file are in full distribution, your client is still selectively going for the rarest ones and cutting off sending those that aren't as rare. Clients that connect to you won't be getting as reliable sends as if you were in regular seeder mode. A new torrent with many seeders also faces a counter-productive scenario if all of those seeders use super-seed mode, because the overall rate that stuff is being sent out is decreased.

Basically, super-seed mode doesn't mean better seeding, but I think it's just supposed to mean that a seed can have "super abilities" in that it can kick off a torrent by itself. It's purely involved with getting the file distributed to the swarm and letting the swarm do most of the heavy lifting, full distribution-wise. Regular seeds are just concerned with getting sends to those who connect to them, regardless of the status of the overall torrent. Using either mode at an inappropriate time isn't massively detrimental, but it is less efficient for sure. Know when to use which, and everyone on that torrent will certainly unknowingly appreciate it.

edit I re-read your post and I think you knew this already, but I'm going to leave this post here so that others who aren't aware of it can learn.
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Old 2007-04-11, 12:10   Link #11
felix
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Yes I knew..
Like I said I don't have the greatest connections so when I do try to seed I go for those torrents where super-seeding would be the better option.. Since that's the easiest way for me to contribute efficiently.

Just like Seiji peers don't seem to like me in a normal environment either (should have made this more obvious in my previous post), so I contribute in environments where the bastards don't have a choise bwa ha ha ha~
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Old 2007-04-11, 14:51   Link #12
SeijiSensei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vexx View Post
I'm sure there's some nasty papers on torrenting algorithms... but I'll also guess there's sophistication about choosing connections based on the "goodness" of the transfer (latency, maximum offered pipe size, etc).

Torrents are a subset of some very interesting mathematical problems.
Just today I happened to come across a comment about whether increasing bandwidth helps ISPs with lots of P2P users on their systems. They mentioned that newer P2P clients optimize their selection of peers based in part on the speeds those peers can offer. By this logic, increasing bandwidth only exacerbates the ISP's problem since P2P users on that service will become more attractive and end up supporting more peer connections that suck up that newly-available bandwidth!
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Old 2007-04-29, 01:53   Link #13
mukansa monkey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeijiSensei View Post
Just today I happened to come across a comment about whether increasing bandwidth helps ISPs with lots of P2P users on their systems. They mentioned that newer P2P clients optimize their selection of peers based in part on the speeds those peers can offer. By this logic, increasing bandwidth only exacerbates the ISP's problem since P2P users on that service will become more attractive and end up supporting more peer connections that suck up that newly-available bandwidth!
This sounds like someone in the industry spouting crap to justify why they're overcharging for slow connections. First off, any ISP of any real size is going to have a fairly consistent percentage of users who regularly use P2P. There's not going to be any residential ISP that has a whole lot more P2P use than their competition down the road. Secondly, most any P2P user can max out their upload speed regardless of what it is, so claiming that they'll be "more attractive" is really irrelevant. In fact it'd be more likely to be the opposite, as the bandwidth per household increases the low-demand households are going to end up using a smaller and smaller percentage of their capacity to send email and use mapquest. Third, bandwidth is sold in tiers, so they already have people paying more for bigger pipes. I would argue that the lion's share of their traffic is going out on connections that are larger than the basic package ones. In particular, people paying for lines that support small home businesses, or other commercial networks with lots of people on a LAN, are going to be both paying quite a bit more and generating a lot more traffic than any single user running P2P at home. Finally, most P2Pers aren't running 24/7. If you can dl/ul a copy of a show twice as fast, chances are you're going to turn your software off a bit more often.

The fact is that much of the expenses of running an ISP are occasional big chunks of major hardware upgrading, followed by periods of raking in the cash while keeping the systems running consistently. What you're hearing right now is the collective whine of a bunch of monopolies (the average household in the US has less than two choices for terrestrial broadband) who are under increasing pressure to start catching up their crappy low-bandwidth connections to what other industrialized countries are already at. For the most part this means replacing lots of decades-old copper with fiber optic gear, a major one-time expense. Too many corporate owners simply want to avoid doing that since it cuts into their year-end bonuses. P2P traffic is just a convenient scapegoat for them to paint as a reason to avoid that investment.

As far as the original post goes, I've noticed a similar issue myself with old torrents and/or low peer count ones. I've been the only seed on a torrent with 9 leechers, and still getting that thing where most of them never connect to me. My guess is that they're on slow connections and/or trying to run too many torrents at once, so their lines are chronically overloaded. Lotta people have no clue how to set things like caps for total # of connections.
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Old 2007-05-01, 22:38   Link #14
WanderingKnight
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Quote:
Lotta people have no clue how to set things like caps for total # of connections.
Yeah. I actually never let more than one torrent active, be it for seeding or leeching, unless it's something I really want now, and then I force start. But most of times I don't force start more than one torrent anyways.
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