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Old 2007-03-13, 16:29   Link #1
xris
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Magic and Technology of MGLN

The purpose of this thread is to discuss the Magic and Technology of Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha.
Quote:
Clarke's Third Law
Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Niven's Law
Any sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology.

Reference, Wiki, Clarke's three laws
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Old 2007-03-13, 20:14   Link #2
shrike
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Are there actually any backstage or source/artbook type sources for Nanoha? We see both magic and technology along with a merging of both, but it's pretty undefined in the anime. Without any other sources though I can't see this going too far.
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Old 2007-03-13, 20:20   Link #3
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That's why I said 'when the new season starts...' in the request thread.

Cause it seems StrikerS would be going into details of the TSAB, hence it's likely that much more of their technology would be revealed or be discussed during the show.

For now it can only be used as a speculation thread.
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Old 2007-04-10, 17:10   Link #4
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I like the way StrikerS is starting to emphasize the support elements of the TSAB, and an advance magical/technological society. From what I understand of the backround, mages (at least significantly powerful ones) are quite a minority in relation to the general populace- people still use airports, vehicles- normal transportation infrastructure, which means that magic isn't applicable for large scale general purposes- i.e. people aren't teleporting around, there aren't any signs of antigravity technology, beyond the hovering "Autospheres" (Fate and Hayate were observing from a perfectly recognizable helicopter). Not to mention the fire-fighters, and the command APC we see... Since Hayate's new unit is supposed to be "Mobile", I reckon that refers to using ground and air transport (one which we glimpse in the OP anim., along with a character that appears to be Chief Maintence/Mechanic) to get to the LZ, along with the capability of transporting/teleporting long distances/off-world to get to incidents, with a chamber like the Arthra has. 8 people make up the primary action squads (Forward Stars- Nanonha, Vita, Subaru, Teeana) /(Forward Lightning- Fate, Signum, Erio, Carol). It still remains to be seen how active the command/support team (Hayate, Rein Zwei, Zafira, Shamal, Acoss, and perhaps a few others) are going to be in the missions. Still, from the glimpses of the Unit HQ building, and the troops standing ready for inspection seen thus far in the manga and anime, there's quite a bit of second line personnel for the unit. Alas, we'll probably have to wait until ep 4 for a real mission (ep 3. will probably end with their first scramble)
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Old 2007-05-05, 12:34   Link #5
Kha
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Journal Article #1

As recommended by my learned colleagues, I shall be gathering up and publishing all the tech talk that has appeared spontaneously in the other threads and post them here for reference. Here's the first one:

Barrier Jackets: A Review of Henshin and Some Defensive Capabilities

This article should be cited as:

Kha, LoweGear, Darco_emp, Meophist, Nightengale. Barrier Jackets: A Review of Henshin and Some Defensive Capabilities. General Sorcerology. Animesuki Nanoha Forums Supplement. Year 0071 Issue 1233 Pages: 120-141

Abstract by LoweGear:

1. Nanomachines are the base on which Barrier Jackets form, and that the nanites convert magical energy into matter, using the principles of conversion of matter to energy ala E=MC2.
2. With the speed of light being slower in dimensional space, less energy is required to convert said energy to matter, thus making said method plausible.
3. Even if the Barrier Jackets are exposed to AMF, the energy required to convert their matter back to energy would be immense, due to the speed of light constant being immensely large, which means massive amounts of energy would have to be expended to dissipate a barrier jacket. So Barrier Jackets are unaffected by AMF and so we don't see anyone get strip naked of their BJ's when entering AMF, as evidenced in Epi 5.

Full Text

This paper shall summarize the main points of the discussion in the thread, and will use the original authors' words as far as possible.

I've always interpreted the device heshin (or any henshin for the matter) to be a conversion of energy to matter supported by nanomachines, given that magic in Nanohaverse is tech-supported. Upon activation the device scatters the nanites into the space around themselves and start imbibing the mage's maryoku. The speed of light for the dimenisional space where maryoku is derived can be infered to be much less than that of normal energy, since its so readily converted to solid objects in summoning magic, then couple it with the nanites acting as a catalyst for the conversion and so we get the "bits and pieces forming out of the air" look for devices and the "glittering wipedown" look for BJs during henshin.
For something to have a different speed of light constant, it has to originate from another space. In Nanohaverse we have the in-canon demonstration of the existence of interdimensional "space", something I call "Voidspace" cos it is completely devoid of standard matter and therefore lacks time and space in the "normal" sense.

Voidspace is filled instead with quarks and disturbances, and the energy existing in that system takes a different form, and when that happens all the constants we know are all thrown out of whack. Assuming quantum theory holds true in that space, a constant can exist in many states (I noe a constant variable is an oxymoron, but nothing is supposed to makes sense in voidspace) and hence the speed of light would have a variable state.

Now that we noe that, I shall go onto the next point. What the nanites do is to just provide a condition that pegs speed of light at a ridiculously small value for a very short time, allowing them to tap and warp maryoku into matter. At this point the conversion is still reversible, and so the energy-matter mix is seen as a glowing shroud of that person's magic color.

When the nanites shut down that condition in a controlled manner, the ethereal matter ends up trapped in reality as the speed of light constant increases out of reach. Now that it is more stable to remain as matter, the device/BJ 'materializes'.

Why doesn't the summoned systems change back to magic upon exposure? Since its already convert to matter, even if the BJ and device is exposed to the AMF (I see it as a maryoku disruption field that works the same way as the Ion Disruptors protecting the NOD's Temple Prime) in which the supporting nanites would be shut down due to the lack of maryoku, the speed of light constant would be the barrier for conversion back to energy (its smaller, but still noticibly there, for even 1000th of Earth's C, that's still a big number. That's why I feel that the nanite were cataysts of sorts as well). In simpler terms the Device and BJ would require great agitation to disrupt the temporal atomic nucleii and convert the system back to magic, and what's lost would only be the summoned systems' ability to regenerate and regulate maryuko into castable spells.

I am assuming that the Laws of Equivalent Exchange, the Joules Principle and E=mc(2) holds true in the Nanohaverse. You noe how the laws of nature get warped from dimension to dimension.

Quote:
Darco_emp replies:

From your theory assuming quarks exist in voidspace and if magic does have the dual properites of enengy and matter (based on Physical/magical damage theory), Then even without nanomachines barrier jacket can still form with sub-atomic bonding of quarks, thus even elimating the need for nanomachines since TSAB does not seem have such tech at the moment. Since I was bored I'll even give the math of the energy the drones need to genarate to convert it back to energy. assume it can even do so when the barrier jacket are made of stable atoms.... so assuming barrier jacket weights 200grams from Kha's theorm, E=mc^2+E(t0) AMF need to output -600*10^9J to reverse the effect if AMF have 100% energy efficiency, I should think the energy should be spend on a nuke instead.
The nanomachines provide the stabilizing backbone of control to direct the system instead of it clumping together and forming crystals like expended mana does on its own. And as long as the speed of light is changed to something small, the transformation of energy to matter is easier.

Defensive Capabilities: Impacts

I stand by the wiki definition of how BJ's work, especially on the point of Reactor Purge, in that the jacket literally explodes in the opposite direction of the incoming impact, nullifying the attack. But unlike a tank, a person is very light, and so there would be some feedback (seen in Nanoha being thrown out of the blast). That's where I think the second layer comes into play. It distributes the self-explosion about the whole mage, and itself being a shock-absorber as well, the feedback doesn't hurt as much as the actual thing. It'll still give u a shock, but at least you're alive. This does not apply to normal hits that the BJ can take without resorting to exploding, otherwise a heavy battle would equal a round of strip poker!

Defensive Capabilities: Harsh Environment Survival

All TSAB operatives can function normally in voidspace, the HARSHEST space to be in the multiverse cos its so disorganized that anything ordered is instantly torn apart. Radiation, Absolute Zero temperatures, DNA-scrambling and other Naaru-knows-what destructive forces await the unprotected. That speaks volumes of the protective capabilities of even the lowest BJ. This is where my nanite idea comes into heavy play, where they set up a super-thin self-sustaining environment field protecting the mage from the elements.

It stops pathogens, blocks out radiation, allows underwater operation, keeps skin smooth and shiny, and even prevents scarring - evidence by Fate still having flawless complexion after literally getting whipped.

If someone is exposed to an AMF in voidspace, would he/she died instantly as the nanites shut down? Further canon evidence is needed to verify this theory.

References

Animesuki Nanoha Forums. Episode 03 Discussion / Poll [Online] Available from: http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...ite#post915148
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Old 2007-05-05, 15:34   Link #6
Kikaifan
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Question: Wouldn't the requirement that energy remain constant demand that any difference in energy between the BJ in extradimensional space and in 'real' space be made up in the process of transferring it between the two?

Quote:
I stand by the wiki definition of how BJ's work, especially on the point of Reactor Purge, in that the jacket literally explodes in the opposite direction of the incoming impact, nullifying the attack. But unlike a tank, a person is very light, and so there would be some feedback (seen in Nanoha being thrown out of the blast).
Knockback as a result of reactive shielding alone is implausible due to the power of the attacks used. The forces involved in the reactive effect would have to be huge, more than enough to splatter the mage (for one thing, a tank's reactive armor would splatter a person wearing it, and the midrange beam attacks in Nanoha look like they could compare in energy to your average APFSDS round to me), which implies that they're somehow compensated for (multilayered BJ with inner layers absorbing force from reacting outer layers sounds fine to me). Similar to the ridiculous 'tumbling bridge crew' in Star Trek, the only explanation I find acceptable is that whatever system is compensating for the reactive force just happens to be well-tuned enough to bring the force within human tolerances but isn't perfectly-tuned so as to null the force entirely. Which kinda beggars belief itself, but it works for me...
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Old 2007-05-05, 16:11   Link #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
I stand by the wiki definition of how BJ's work, especially on the point of Reactor Purge, in that the jacket literally explodes in the opposite direction of the incoming impact, nullifying the attack.
Isn't the "reactive armor" feature of Reactor Purge actually a separate power, or at least an upgrade to Barrier Jacket that Nonoha did not originally have? The way it's listed in Wiki gives the impression that Barrier Jacket is more like a force field, and Reactor Purge is the explosive defence.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Knockback as a result of reactive shielding alone is implausible due to the power of the attacks used. The forces involved in the reactive effect would have to be huge, more than enough to splatter the mage
One possible explination occures to me. In "real life" reactive armor doesn't just knock the projectile away, what it does is disrupt the explosive attack of the projectile (many AP rounds use a shaped charge which generates a sort of high-temperature plasma jet which is what actually pierces the armor). Perhaps defensive powers like Reactor Purge do the same thing to magic? Use a counter-charge to disrupt the focused nature of the spell, so that the underlying Barrier Jacket can effectivly resist the now difussed attack?
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Old 2007-05-05, 16:21   Link #8
Kikaifan
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I know Kontakt-V at least works primarily by the lateral movement of the plates sandwiching the explosive, resulting in multiplication of their effective thickness by several times and possibly the disruption of the HEAT jet and severing of a penetrator's point.

I'd imagine the reactive effect in BJ is just a disruption of whatever features of the offensive energies make them a good penetrator of the armor/shield layers like you say, not an out-and-out attempt to equal the force of the attack, but I'm dubious that the heavier attacks used by the Nanoha mages could be disrupted without a significant force.

Also, while I'd like to imagine that the BJ form a comprehensive defense like we've been discussing, it could be that 'reactor purge' refers only to the complete destruction of the jacket to form a last-ditch reactive defense, as when Nanoha was protected against Vita's final rocket-hammer strike only by the expenditure of the entire energy of her BJ.
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Old 2007-05-05, 16:33   Link #9
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I somewhat doubt that nanomachines are involved in the creation of Barrier Jackets. As we can see from the binding spells of Yuuno in the first series, mages seem to be capable of creating effects that appear to be solid (capable of appearing to break) without the use of an intelligent device.

Edit: Couldn't the following also serve as an alternative?

Mythology is filled with references to objects that should not be able to withstand forces that they should not be able to. Two instances that come to mind are the Nemean (I think that's how you spell it) Lion slain by Hercules, and magical properties of the blood of the dragon Fafnir. All of Hercules' weapons failed to penetrate the skin of the Nemean Lion, and the blood of Fafnir conferred invulnerability to every part of Sigurd's body that it touched.

If we look at magic as the process of bringing substances into being, it is quite possible that barrier jacket is merely the product of specialized magic. It is also possible that the creation is merely the harnessing and transmutation of nearby substances and energy into a physical form. If we say that there is a natural order (as one could infer from the insane amount of scientific knowledge) it is quite possible that the apparent "dissolving" or "bursting" of barrier jackets is simply the energy and substance drawn upon returning to its original place.

In this case, the intelligent device serves the role of managing and maintaining the use of energy according to the instructions/programming inherent in its being. The device has a certain form of the barrier jacket imprinted into it upon initial activation (perhaps by user), and it continues to use that form until the instructions are altered.
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Old 2007-05-05, 23:32   Link #10
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
Question: Wouldn't the requirement that energy remain constant demand that any difference in energy between the BJ in extradimensional space and in 'real' space be made up in the process of transferring it between the two?

------

Knockback as a result of reactive shielding alone is implausible due to the power of the attacks used. The forces involved in the reactive effect would have to be huge, more than enough to splatter the mage (for one thing, a tank's reactive armor would splatter a person wearing it, and the midrange beam attacks in Nanoha look like they could compare in energy to your average APFSDS round to me), which implies that they're somehow compensated for (multilayered BJ with inner layers absorbing force from reacting outer layers sounds fine to me). Similar to the ridiculous 'tumbling bridge crew' in Star Trek, the only explanation I find acceptable is that whatever system is compensating for the reactive force just happens to be well-tuned enough to bring the force within human tolerances but isn't perfectly-tuned so as to null the force entirely. Which kinda beggars belief itself, but it works for me...
I didn't quite get your question but I'll try and answer it. Energy is not transferred from extra-dimensional space but drawn from it by virtue of several processes (which I won't go onto just yet) to build the BJ. Yes some mana is used to draw more from extra-dimensional space for it is an active process, but enough is left to be worked on by the nanites. Most of the formation process occurs because of the controlled manipulation of the speed of light due to artificial conditions created by the nanites as they deconstruct and save the mage's clothes and build up the BJ. Does that answer it?

Sidenote:

The special form of numerous and externally derived energy used specifically to drive magical processes is what we call Mana, as opposed to the somewhat limited and internally derived type generated by one's Linker Core which has many names like Reiatsu, Furyoku, Chii, Chakra etc, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mdauben View Post
Isn't the "reactive armor" feature of Reactor Purge actually a separate power, or at least an upgrade to Barrier Jacket that Nonoha did not originally have? The way it's listed in Wiki gives the impression that Barrier Jacket is more like a force field, and Reactor Purge is the explosive defence.

~~~~~~

One possible explination occures to me. In "real life" reactive armor doesn't just knock the projectile away, what it does is disrupt the explosive attack of the projectile (many AP rounds use a shaped charge which generates a sort of high-temperature plasma jet which is what actually pierces the armor). Perhaps defensive powers like Reactor Purge do the same thing to magic? Use a counter-charge to disrupt the focused nature of the spell, so that the underlying Barrier Jacket can effectivly resist the now difussed attack?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I know Kontakt-V at least works primarily by the lateral movement of the plates sandwiching the explosive, resulting in multiplication of their effective thickness by several times and possibly the disruption of the HEAT jet and severing of a penetrator's point.

I'd imagine the reactive effect in BJ is just a disruption of whatever features of the offensive energies make them a good penetrator of the armor/shield layers like you say, not an out-and-out attempt to equal the force of the attack, but I'm dubious that the heavier attacks used by the Nanoha mages could be disrupted without a significant force.

Also, while I'd like to imagine that the BJ form a comprehensive defense like we've been discussing, it could be that 'reactor purge' refers only to the complete destruction of the jacket to form a last-ditch reactive defense, as when Nanoha was protected against Vita's final rocket-hammer strike only by the expenditure of the entire energy of her BJ.
Ok I should be clearer in my explanation. Like you all said, what I really was talking about was how Reactor Purge worked. That does not cover all bases on how the BJ works to protect the mage. It has 3 layers of defence: First the intangible Protection field, then the smart material that is flexible like cloth, probably "breathes like Egyption cotton" to quote one superhero costume tailor, and yet can resist most impacts, and is the layer that self-destructs to oppose the impact when the BJ is subjected to impact beyond its limit, then the distribution layer that prevents the mage from being crushed by her own BJ exploding to resist the attack.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Woden View Post
I somewhat doubt that nanomachines are involved in the creation of Barrier Jackets. As we can see from the binding spells of Yuuno in the first series, mages seem to be capable of creating effects that appear to be solid (capable of appearing to break) without the use of an intelligent device.

Edit: Couldn't the following also serve as an alternative?

Mythology is filled with references to objects that should not be able to withstand forces that they should not be able to. Two instances that come to mind are the Nemean (I think that's how you spell it) Lion slain by Hercules, and magical properties of the blood of the dragon Fafnir. All of Hercules' weapons failed to penetrate the skin of the Nemean Lion, and the blood of Fafnir conferred invulnerability to every part of Sigurd's body that it touched.

If we look at magic as the process of bringing substances into being, it is quite possible that barrier jacket is merely the product of specialized magic. It is also possible that the creation is merely the harnessing and transmutation of nearby substances and energy into a physical form. If we say that there is a natural order (as one could infer from the insane amount of scientific knowledge) it is quite possible that the apparent "dissolving" or "bursting" of barrier jackets is simply the energy and substance drawn upon returning to its original place.

In this case, the intelligent device serves the role of managing and maintaining the use of energy according to the instructions/programming inherent in its being. The device has a certain form of the barrier jacket imprinted into it upon initial activation (perhaps by user), and it continues to use that form until the instructions are altered.
Yes that's true. I approached Nanohaverse device with a mindset that everything has some science in it, however warped it might be, and hence my preference for nanomachines over pure enchanting magic in explanation of certain things

I'd like to point out that Yuuno does not create a barrier jacket for himself with his magic. My explanation for this distinction is that, maybe in the Nanohaverse, while a person's wielding of magic can create solid objects on its own, for more precise and complicated objects like the smart multi-layered defenses of the Barrier Jacket, the precision offered by mechanical tools like Devices is required. Its a bit like an unaided human being able to build a rather large integrated circuit, but a robot is able to build things to a micron accurately and quickly, thus achieving more with less space used.
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Old 2007-05-05, 23:35   Link #11
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Clarifications with issues regarding barrier jacket:

The very reason that sub-atomic/atomic bonding, which in turn forms the foundations of barrier jacket, is brought up is to counter the redundancy of maintaining nanomachines.

With the assumption under the uncertainly of universal constants that is a direct result in the plane where the barrier jacket is formed. Based on Special relativity, new, heavier elements are formed using existing elements or with quarks and photon (1), which exist due to what I theorized: magic have properties of light. This process occurs
at a greatly lower energy requirements then the physical plane, as stated.

Now if the bonding on atomic level occurs, and compound is formed and produces the lattice that is the frame of barrier jacket, and thus keep a stable system. Then the demands that transfer between the two spaces requires is avoided.

(1). Experiment on heavy element formation: Li + p -> He

Kha, LoweGear, Darco_emp, Meophist, Nightengale, 0071, ‘Barrier Jackets: A Review of Henshin and Some Defensive Capabilities’, Magic and Technology of MGLN, vol. 01, no. 04, pp. 01.
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Old 2007-05-06, 00:10   Link #12
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Personally, I think that formation of Barrier Jackets is more of a layered process, in terms of defensive formats at least for the complex ones like the ones employed by Nanoha and Fate. Since I was the one who explored the magical formulaic equations = result thing, I'll use a similar argument and say that Barrier Jacket is probably like a layer of tri-supportive defensive protocol that is augmented on both non-physical emulation of wrap-on non-matter forming barriers (( which explains why they can crash to debris and not be cut/why henshin sequences are in mono-colours with no nipples etc )) alongside regular appliance of Barrier Jackets as we see it in the regular formation of the clothing used in, using similar arguments of magical output that balances sub-atomic bonding that is reinforced, something like vulcanized rubber as opposed to natural rubber in terms of molecular formation.

Though nanomachines is the bread and butter for all psuedo-science appliances on a semi-realistic plane of arguments, I think it's both a balance of magical energy released that converts the structure of the magical particles on an molecular level that creates a balance of energy conversion or matter conversion, or just outright concentrated raw magical output, that can be differentiated by differing executions of magical spells and effects that range from beams, to magical manipulation that resembles regular matter, elemental conversion of energies, among other things.

If I recall properly, didn't Chrono bleed in Nanoha? It might be a representation on how his BJ's constantly on, on the sense that it reflects a different formation where his actual BJ's doesn't completely materialize actual physical formation and is more on the outer, non-physical layers.

I'm starting to not make sense.
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Old 2007-05-06, 00:46   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Personally, I think that formation of Barrier Jackets is more of a layered process, in terms of defensive formats at least for the complex ones like the ones employed by Nanoha and Fate. Since I was the one who explored the magical formulaic equations = result thing, I'll use a similar argument and say that Barrier Jacket is probably like a layer of tri-supportive defensive protocol that is augmented on both non-physical emulation of wrap-on non-matter forming barriers (( which explains why they can crash to debris and not be cut/why henshin sequences are in mono-colours with no nipples etc )) alongside regular appliance of Barrier Jackets as we see it in the regular formation of the clothing used in, using similar arguments of magical output that balances sub-atomic bonding that is reinforced, something like vulcanized rubber as opposed to natural rubber in terms of molecular formation.

Though nanomachines is the bread and butter for all psuedo-science appliances on a semi-realistic plane of arguments, I think it's both a balance of magical energy released that converts the structure of the magical particles on an molecular level that creates a balance of energy conversion or matter conversion, or just outright concentrated raw magical output, that can be differentiated by differing executions of magical spells and effects that range from beams, to magical manipulation that resembles regular matter, elemental conversion of energies, among other things.

If I recall properly, didn't Chrono bleed in Nanoha? It might be a representation on how his BJ's constantly on, on the sense that it reflects a different formation where his actual BJ's doesn't completely materialize actual physical formation and is more on the outer, non-physical layers.

I'm starting to not make sense.
Since in Nanoha, shields can be muti-layered then this can also be used to imply that Barrier Jacket can also be layered. This will resolves the issue regards to Reactor Purge, since as you state before one of defensive protocol should be able to absorb the forces.

Now with Barrier Jacket as outright concentrated raw magical output, this I would bring into dispute. One of the reason we are working under the assumption that Barrier Jacket is formed via Nanomachines/or Atomic bondings is that Barrier Jacket is not prone to disslotion in AMF. Therefore it must be something that is less subjective to interference, thus something other then a pure energy form.

As to Chrono bleed in Nanoha I really do not remember it...
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Old 2007-05-06, 00:47   Link #14
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I prefer an explanation where magical energy can take on some of the aspects of 'real' matter and energy (thus Fate's pseudoelectric attacks and the magically-created matter of barrier jackets, blood daggers, etc.)- the actual material is magical energy imitating physical matter.
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Old 2007-05-06, 01:01   Link #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I prefer an explanation where magical energy can take on some of the aspects of 'real' matter and energy (thus Fate's pseudoelectric attacks and the magically-created matter of barrier jackets, blood daggers, etc.)- the actual material is magical energy imitating physical matter.
I throught we have established that magical energy is a form of energy and thus does have the properties of energy and matter. I wish to point out however Fate's pseudoelectric attacks is ineffective against AMF, while we have not tested bloody dagger yet I will assume they are ineffective too. However the substance that Barrier Jacket have seems to be an exception to this.

Btw can I ask for a clarification on "magically-created matter"
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Old 2007-05-06, 01:08   Link #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darco_emp View Post
Since in Nanoha, shields can be muti-layered then this can also be used to imply that Barrier Jacket can also be layered. This will resolves the issue regards to Reactor Purge, since as you state before one of defensive protocol should be able to absorb the forces.

Now with Barrier Jacket as outright concentrated raw magical output, this I would bring into dispute. One of the reason we are working under the assumption that Barrier Jacket is formed via Nanomachines/or Atomic bondings is that Barrier Jacket is not prone to disslotion in AMF. Therefore it must be something that is less subjective to interference, thus something other then a pure energy form.

As to Chrono bleed in Nanoha I really do not remember it...
Chrono was bleeding from a dorsal temporal inscision after soloing many of the golems at the Garden of Time back in S1. My guess was that the kid just wasn't packing enough protection, since he doesn't use a custom (and by anime-logic more uber) BJ. Enough to keep him alive in harsh environments, with maybe some emphasis on speed, comfort and stealth like what a sniper might opt for, but nothing spectacular in the defence dept. After all, we see that RH's BJ tanks better than Bard's, and we corelate that to how Fate is really after speed and dodge while Nanoha prefers to stand and blast.
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Old 2007-05-06, 01:31   Link #17
Erio
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I hereby declare Kha as the Father of the Magic and Technology of MGLN thread.

lol Nice job, Kha.


Well, I was thinking... It was proved that BJs do not disappear inside an AMF. But I have the theory that the BJs are less effective inside the AMFs.

My theory is that, inside an AMF, waves of illogical magical strings (think of it as corrupted data) are combined with regular magical strings formed by spells corrupting the strings and thus disabling and nullifying said spells. If this is the case, then any magical barrier or shield imbued into the BJs are nullified as well. The BJs inside an AMF are but simple pieces of clothes.

(I hope that makes sense. Sorry )

Well, maybe Kha has some AMF report prepared for later posting.
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Old 2007-05-06, 01:43   Link #18
Darco_emp
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
I hereby declare Kha as the Father of the Magic and Technology of MGLN thread.

lol Nice job, Kha.


Well, I was thinking... It was proved that BJs do not disappear inside an AMF. But I have the theory that the BJs are less effective inside the AMFs.

My theory is that, inside an AMF, waves of illogical magical strings (think of it as corrupted data) are combined with regular magical strings formed by spells corrupting the strings and thus disabling and nullifying said spells. If this is the case, then any magical barrier or shield imbued into the BJs are nullified as well. The BJs inside an AMF are but simple pieces of clothes.

(I hope that makes sense. Sorry )

Well, maybe Kha has some AMF report prepared for later posting.
Hmm, Its interesting to think AMF as noises, which is the current research topic I'm doing. It is different to my theory with regards to AMF and magic in Nanoha in genral but it could indeed work.

I belive we still need to get through at least the theory of AMF, and also the bases of colour assoicated with magic.
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Old 2007-05-06, 01:51   Link #19
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
I hereby declare Kha as the Father of the Magic and Technology of MGLN thread.

lol Nice job, Kha.


Well, I was thinking... It was proved that BJs do not disappear inside an AMF. But I have the theory that the BJs are less effective inside the AMFs.

My theory is that, inside an AMF, waves of illogical magical strings (think of it as corrupted data) are combined with regular magical strings formed by spells corrupting the strings and thus disabling and nullifying said spells. If this is the case, then any magical barrier or shield imbued into the BJs are nullified as well. The BJs inside an AMF are but simple pieces of clothes.

(I hope that makes sense. Sorry )

Well, maybe Kha has some AMF report prepared for later posting.
It's all technobabble really. Another form of fanfiction I practice. Hahaha...

Your theory works fine so I'll just elaborate on the last bit there:

Disclaimer: I watched epi 5 closely using yesy for this one, so I might be getting some details wrong.

What I found was that even when nullified, the BJs still retain some of their defensive function, otherwise the above poster would've been completely owned and gone home in a squishy body bag from being crushed by the Drone. Instead I think the Gadget gave up and decided to toss him overboard for that uber Caro-boosted comeback.

This might suggest that while the magical component of the BJ has been disabled, the nanites might be still operating on emergency power derived from internally generated energy from the Linker Core since that's what they are always in direct contact with. It's rather limited compared to when running on mana, and so all of it is concentrated on keeping the mage alive, be it life support systems or moderate defences. My analogy is like how GSD Phase Shift armor-equpped mecha works when the power's cut; there's enough for life support and machinegun fire, but a light beam shot would just tear through it. That way, even in the worst circumstances at the very least the mage has a better chance of keeping his ass intact to fight another day.

That was the part I didn't quite agree, but I could be reading too much into the situation...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Darco_emp View Post
Hmm, Its interesting to think AMF as noises, which is the current research topic I'm doing. It is different to my theory with regards to AMF and magic in Nanoha in genral but it could indeed work.

I belive we still need to get through at least the theory of AMF, and also the bases of colour assoicated with magic.
So far this is what I've noted regarding AMFs:

1. They can be nullified by a decoy layer of resistant magic a la Variable Shoot.
2. They can be nullified by another magical enchantment, opening up avenues for a M-jammer Canceller.
3. They seem to have no effect on a person's Linker Core

I still can't quite make much of it myself with those points though. Can we hear your theory too?

As for magic circle color, I guess its something in-born, like one's fingerprints, that affects the frequency of mana (I'm assuming its a unique form of EM here) output from one's Linker Core. The devices themselves have a mana distiller of sorts that draws mana from the environment such that it amplifies the Linker Core's effect (and so no Linker, value = 0 and amplification of 0 is still 0) and creates a more powerful version of the spell than when casting without a device. As spells are an expression of one's will, it might be that the Linker Core's color is expressed when casting spells even through a device, and hence the different colors result.
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Old 2007-05-06, 02:08   Link #20
Kikaifan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darco_emp View Post
I throught we have established that magical energy is a form of energy and thus does have the properties of energy and matter. I wish to point out however Fate's pseudoelectric attacks is ineffective against AMF, while we have not tested bloody dagger yet I will assume they are ineffective too. However the substance that Barrier Jacket have seems to be an exception to this.

Btw can I ask for a clarification on "magically-created matter"
Magical energy as 'real' energy- It's not a form of energy as we understand it. Certainly not the way people think of 'energy' in terms of EM radiation. For one thing, it responds to human will.

I'm going out on what I see as a terribly short, unoriginal limb and sticking with the idea that 'magic' has its own rules. I find the entire idea that any of this stuff makes any sense purely in terms of our physical laws, that it's all just very advanced technology, to be preposterous. Magical law is separate from what we'd call physical law- if you define physical law to include magical law (since, after all, if they have rules for interacting with each other they're really just part of the same system), then it is not the physical law we know.


Barrier jackets in AMF- in StrikerS manga it was stated that a mage in an AMF will lose basic defenses, and the characters generally acted like AMF had absolute effect out to a certain range and none outside that. However, in the StrikerS anime they act more like AMF has a limited effect that decreases in power with distance like a 'real' field. In anime context the survival of the barrier jacket can be explained by barrier jackets incorporating a permanent form of the spell-protection/barrier-inversion techs used by Tiana and Carol against AMF (if barrier jackets' relative permanence and long set-up time allows the incorporation of relatively complex effects it would go a long way towards providing an in-setting explanation why there seems to be such a bias towards defense and character durability in Nanohaverse, though whether AMF-resistance is a standard feature is anyone's guess until we see TSAB grunts trapped inside an AMF.)


Magically-created matter: By magically-created matter I'm referring to any matter that just seems to be conjured out of nowhere by magical means, presumably through some magical-energy-to-matter conversion process has nothing to do with ol' c. Blood daggers, Vita's 'croquette balls,' the barrier jackets- they all appear to be ordinary matter but they're created by magical processes and imbued with magical power. To apply the above point, it inspire far less cognitive dissonance for me to say that the listed objects are created by putting magical energy into a form that causes it to emulate physical matter and gives it properties useful for offense or defense not dependent on those of the physical matter it emulates than to say that, say, blood daggers are created by doing an e=mc^2 energy-to-mass conversion and then partially reversing it to create the blast, or by using nanites to assemble a miniature missile that just happens to look like a dagger for aesthetics' sake.

In other words, I hate 'magic is just really advanced technology' unless the technology looks plausible to me. That happens in hard sci-fi, but never in anime.
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