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Old 2007-05-06, 06:14   Link #41
Woden
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Perhaps that has to do with the Lieze twins being familiars as opposed to just being a person. I seriously doubt that the Nanoha world uses the same concepts for magical inheritance as the Nasu-verse.
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Old 2007-05-06, 06:37   Link #42
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Originally Posted by Woden View Post
Yet we see the AMF holding various magical attacks at a certain distance while the spell withers. As the attack in episode 3 (Variable Shoot, I believe) doesn't just disappear, shouldn't we should be able to perceive the continued motion of the attack?
Yes that is one of the problem with this theory, that is why I really need to think this through, give me time and I'll present it with all the math attached ....

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Originally Posted by Nightengale
It also variantly in a sense, should depend on the particular output of the released magical energy in the form of waves, because if that is similarly in the case, shouldn't differing frequencies allow the AMF to be bypassed in the form of shifting waves in it's own variants with the sound flux and stimulus response on how the AMF detects the release of magical energy?

Eek. It's so hard to try and remember those physics stuff they teach in university/school, especially when I haet them so much.

You know, talking about Linker Cores, it makes one wonder on the particular singularity and frequency of mages, possibly even hereditary traits passed on from their magical circuits that run in the blood. Fate's magical talent from Precia alongside the masterful capability of elemental thunder conversion is one example, but what perplexes me for one is Yuuno's apparently unique construction where in a state where he clearly didn't use any magic at all, he self-transformed into a ferret not of his own will, which means that there's a possibility that his Linker Core magical construction bypasses any magical use of energy when using shapeshifting, and allows him to shapeshift without the use of any magical energy, unlike the Lieze twins which obviously needed the use of magic constantly that broke off upon magical binding.
It is true that shifting frequency will also be able to by-pass the AMF, however when there is a frequency shift in the fourier domain the transformed waveform will become distorted. Then the bases of the spell will change wouldn't it. That why I throught it as a phase shift instead, which does not distort the image in the fourier domain after transformations.

Now with Yunno's shapeshifting is perhapes a trait shared by his tribe, but it does appear to use magical energy, since he did use a magical circle to shift back to human form later in season one. I would just think his inital change to ferret at the start of season 1, is maybe forced power saving mode on low battery, like on labtops. Yunno's shapeshifting is a change of body structures while Lieze's was an illusion wasn't it.... btw I hate shapeshifting since it does not obey proper physics
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:31   Link #43
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But what if AMF doesn’t dispel all magic, but simply the refined energy? That would explain why Linker Cores are unaffected.

Magic exists in two forms, the raw energy, or mana, and the refined energy that makes up a barrier, magic blast, or empowered weapon. What an AMF does in not make this energy disappear, but rather ‘unweaves’ the elements that held the spell together, reducing the spell to the energy it came from. Just like vibrations can shatter a rock, reducing it to nothing more then sand and dust, and AMF would ‘vibrate’ the spell apart. Since Linker Cores are the energy they would be reduced to, they would naturally remain unaffected.
Yes, this is where our theory that AMF emits 'waves' that disrupt magical spells is going. I think AMF should actually be "Anti-Magic-Spell-Field." As you say, raw magic does not disappear, only the spells, which are disrupted.

I'm thinking in Hunter X Hunter terms now...
(For those who have not watched HxH, go here)

Transformation (Transmutation): Used to change the properties of nen (raw magic). This is how elemental spells are produced (Fate's Lightning and Signum's Fire). But also, as Keroko says, the raw magic has to be transformed to be used as fuel for spells (even for non-elemental Divine Buster). The AMF 'waves' disrupt the transformed raw magic.
- Transformation is required for all mages.
- Characters who excel in this category: Hayate, Fate, Signum, Reinforce II
- Maybe Erio. Not sure.

Emission: Used to discharge the accumulated and transformed magic (Divine Buster, Starlight Breaker, Plasma Smasher, and all those long range spells).
- Subaru is bad in this category, as an example, while Nanoha is an expert.
- Characters who excel in this category: Nanoha, Teana, Chrono

Manipulation: In HxH it is used to control people or non-living materials, but here in Nanoha-verse it would be used to control certain spells (Accel Shooter, Plasma Lancer, Variable Shoot and almost all of Teana's spells).
- Apparently Teana is an expert in this category.
- Characters who excel: Nanoha, Teana, Chrono

Reinforcement (Enhancement): Used to increase efficiency of objects or body. All defensive (Barrier, Field, and Shield types. See Nanoha A's Comics) and healing magics belong to this category, as well as Caro's enchantments, Vita's Hammer attacks (Raketenhammer, Gigantschlag), and Signum's Knight Armour (or Knight Spirit, a Field-type magic defense. See A's episode 2). Since Field is a type of magic defense, AMF is also part of this category.
- Characters who excel: Vita, Signum, Shamal, Caro, Yuuno, Arf, Zafira
- Not sure about Subaru, but I think she belongs to this category too.

Quote:
As to barrier jackets, since they are either solidified magic or empowered Nano-machines (depending on your point of view) they are like reinforced concrete. Normal concrete will collapse far easier then reinforced concrete. The amount of power needed to 'unweave' a barrier jacket or Intelligent Device would far exceed that necissary to unweave an offensive spell.
I would probably put Barrier Jackets in this category:

Materialization (Conjuration): Used to create physical objects out of raw magic (Vita's Schwalbe fliegen). Materialization users in HxH can create items with special abilities imbued into them. For Barrier Jackets, these special abilities would be Barrier, and/or Shield magic defenses.
- Characters who excel: None, as the Intelligent and Armed Devices take care of the materialization process.

And the last category:

Specialization: Anything that doesnt belong to the other categories. Hayate's status effect spells come to mind.
- Character who excel: Hayate, Reinforce II, and specially Reinforce I (Ability to use all categories with 100% efficiency, anyone? )


----
Oh, I love HxH's Nen. And after writing this post, HxH's 'energy system' sure makes sense, even when applied to Nanoha-verse.

BTW, I have no clue what categories Subaru and Erio excel in. I would assume Erio eventually would be good with Lightning attacks, but there is not enough info right now.

I hope you enjoyed this comparison as much as me.
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:47   Link #44
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
BTW, I have no clue what categories Subaru and Erio excel in. I would assume Erio eventually would be good with Lightning attacks, but there is not enough info right now.
Are you kidding? Subaru is a 100% reinforcement type. Hell, she even has the simple-minded personallity for it.
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Old 2007-05-06, 15:55   Link #45
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Are you kidding? Subaru is a 100% reinforcement type. Hell, she even has the simple-minded personallity for it.
Hehe yes. I dont know why I'm doubting. Maybe its because of the Revolver Knuckle. To hit harder it uses some kind of mechanical propulsion system, instead of a spell. Well, maybe it is a spell, as it uses cartridges... Hmm. Ah, I give up. Yes, Subaru is Reinforcement, if only because she doesnt fit anywhere else.
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Old 2007-05-06, 22:58   Link #46
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btw I hate shapeshifting since it does not obey proper physics
That's why its called magic..
I'm really not sure why everyone keeps trying to marry magic with physics..
It's been said before, but if it followed physical laws, it wouldn't be magic.


The Lieze twins were using illusion/disguise magic, which was disrupted by Chrono's bind - I recall he said it is a specifc type of bind that causes the trapped target to return to their true form? Or breaks any enchantments they have on them?

So if the Lieze twins were using an active or passive spell, it was disrupted.


Yuuno however seems to have two seperate forms, both of which can be considered his 'true' forms. I guess switching from one to the other requires almost no magic, or perhaps that only works downwards, from human form to ferret form, since one is a low-magic-cost form.


Linker Cores might emit magical energy - any magic they emit inside an AMF is probably disrupted/dissolved as per the usual AMF effect, but the generator itself seems unaffected. So Linker Cores are not in any danger while inside an AMF, they just can't produce any focussed magical output..


I'm not really not comfortable with the idea of nanomachines for the BJ.
That just makes me have bad Mai-Otome flashbacks.

When the BJs form, the effect looks more like the magically constructed matter effect that someone else described.. pure, patterned magical energy of some sort instantly forms into what appears to be fabric. Nanomachines would have a visibly granular appearance to their formation (as in, say, Cutey Honey ), as trillions of molecular level machines moved into position.


Also, the protection of BJs is clearly more than their fabric - characters have exposed faces yet survive full beam and explosion exposure. BJs are not just worn armour, in the physical sense. They probably emit fields of their own.
The way the protect from 'crushing' damage is possibly similar to Yuuno's magical mattress from ep4 season1.
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Old 2007-05-07, 00:46   Link #47
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Way I read Kha's model though, the nanomachines are just there to aid magic-to-matter conversion and help form the material. It's not actually made out of nanomachines.

Mai Otome hardly invented nanomachines. You can't let one crappy anime taint one of the most abused concepts in sci-fi... wait... I guess that should be 'there are so many crappy narrative uses of nanomachines on record that Mai Otome's contribution hardly matters.'

Although since I like Eve's nanotech-shapeshifting power from Black Cat I guess I'm pretty guilty myself.
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Old 2007-05-07, 01:22   Link #48
Erio
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Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Linker Cores might emit magical energy - any magic they emit inside an AMF is probably disrupted/dissolved as per the usual AMF effect, but the generator itself seems unaffected. So Linker Cores are not in any danger while inside an AMF, they just can't produce any focussed magical output..
I still think the way Keroko and I view it makes more sense. The raw magic emitted from the Linker Cores by itself does not do anything. It has to be transformed or refined so that mages can use them to cast spells.

This is how I see it: Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.

But the fact that you have a Linker Core and have magical aptitudes (like Nanoha before she met Yuuno) does not mean you can cast spells. This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic, or if we use our theory's terms, to help mages transform that raw magic so it would be usable for casting spells.

With this in mind, and the fact that Erio's and Caro's health or stamina were not affected while inside the AMF, we came with the theory that the AMF does not disrupt the flow of raw magic (that which is emitted from LCs) but instead disrupts the transformed raw magic used to cast spells. This is why we saw that Strada's enchantment was nullified, but nothing happened to Erio himself. This is why I believe that the AMF is actually a "Anti Magic-spell Field."

Also, what I tried to explain with use of Hunter X Hunter terminology is that the AMF is but an enchantment, a Field-type magic defense (as explained in A's to Strikers Comics), not some hax. Caro proved this by using the "Enchanter field invalid" (the word "Enchanter" in the spells name should be enough clue ) enchantment on Erio's weapon to counter the AMF. In other words, the AMF has to have its limits, or it would be completely unstoppable.

I hope that makes sense.
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Old 2007-05-07, 01:38   Link #49
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
I still think the way Keroko and I view it makes more sense. The raw magic emitted from the Linker Cores by itself does not do anything. It has to be transformed or refined so that mages can use them to cast spells.

This is how I see it: Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.

But the fact that you have a Linker Core and have magical aptitudes (like Nanoha before she met Yuuno) does not mean you can cast spells. This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic, or if we use our theory's terms, to help mages transform that raw magic so it would be usable for casting spells.

With this in mind, and the fact that Erio's and Caro's health or stamina were not affected while inside the AMF, we came with the theory that the AMF does not disrupt the flow of raw magic (that which is emitted from LCs) but instead disrupts the transformed raw magic used to cast spells. This is why we saw that Strada's enchantment was nullified, but nothing happened to Erio himself. This is why I believe that the AMF is actually a "Anti Magic-spell Field."

Also, what I tried to explain with use of Hunter X Hunter terminology is that the AMF is but an enchantment, a Field-type magic defense (as explained in A's to Strikers Comics), not some hax. Caro proved this by using the "Enchanter field invalid" (the word "Enchanter" in the spells name should be enough clue ) enchantment on Erio's weapon to counter the AMF. In other words, the AMF has to have its limits, or it would be completely unstoppable.

I hope that makes sense.
That does make sense to me. I've been thinking of how the terminology in Nanoha Universe would work. Your post has proven to be very useful. =3
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Old 2007-05-07, 01:40   Link #50
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
I still think the way Keroko and I view it makes more sense. The raw magic emitted from the Linker Cores by itself does not do anything. It has to be transformed or refined so that mages can use them to cast spells.

This is how I see it: Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.

But the fact that you have a Linker Core and have magical aptitudes (like Nanoha before she met Yuuno) does not mean you can cast spells. This is where Intelligent Devices come in: to help mages use that raw magic, or if we use our theory's terms, to help mages transform that raw magic so it would be usable for casting spells.

With this in mind, and the fact that Erio's and Caro's health or stamina were not affected while inside the AMF, we came with the theory that the AMF does not disrupt the flow of raw magic (that which is emitted from LCs) but instead disrupts the transformed raw magic used to cast spells. This is why we saw that Strada's enchantment was nullified, but nothing happened to Erio himself. This is why I believe that the AMF is actually a "Anti Magic-spell Field."

Also, what I tried to explain with use of Hunter X Hunter terminology is that the AMF is but an enchantment, a Field-type magic defense (as explained in A's to Strikers Comics), not some hax. Caro proved this by using the "Enchanter field invalid" (the word "Enchanter" in the spells name should be enough clue ) enchantment on Erio's weapon to counter the AMF. In other words, the AMF has to have its limits, or it would be completely unstoppable.

I hope that makes sense.
But do notice that a mages does not require the use of ID to cast spells.

Hmm but if we consider the Linker Core as completly chaotic and random, a good model for this can be white noise again, which is just y(t)=A for -∞<t<∞, where A is constant, the amount if raw power a mage have.

Now, since under superposition again in AMF we can get r(t) = A +B*sin(wt-180), where AMF is modeled with B*sin(wt-180). We can see with this model then AMF will not effect the overall power of linker core at all, unlike in an organised spell A*sin(wt-180).

-----------------------

@BatAttack, Since in Nanoha they did say Magic is similar to math models used on Earth, I do belive there is proper physics/math model for all magic then.
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Old 2007-05-07, 01:46   Link #51
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Yes, mages don't need devices to cast spells, as shown by Yuuno and Lindy.

However, when you consider how a finely-tuned specialized I.D is so much better than regular Storage Devices, which are apparently easier than manual-non device magic, well...one can see why there aren't too many "non-devicers."

That's why I think the personal scientific calculator => regular calculator => mental arithmetics argument work best in terms of looking at how Devices help channel the magical energy as a medium.
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Old 2007-05-07, 01:55   Link #52
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Originally Posted by Darco_emp View Post
@BatAttack, Since in Nanoha they did say Magic is similar to math models used on Earth, I do belive there is proper physics/math model for all magic then.
Not necessarily; as someone else suggested it might be that the math is used for correcly forming the magic sygils that are required to manifest the spell. The runic inscriptions have to be just so or the spell will fail (or misfire etc.)


Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio
Every living thing has a Linker Core, no matter if you're a mage or not (this was said in A's). The Linker Core is like your heart: If the energy emitted by the LC stops flowing, you will die. It is like your life force. This explains why Nanoha was very weak after Shamal drained most of her LC. If the AMF disrupts the flow of this energy, any living thing inside the Field would start losing stamina, then its consciousness, and eventually it would die.
Uh huh, except that I don't recall it ever being stated that an AMF drains your life force. I think any normal person or mage could exist in an AMF and remain unharmed indefinitely. Its just that they can't use magic effectively because it becomes defocussed to the point of uselessness.

Hence my comment about the linker core itself being unaffected, only emitted magical energy being defocussed.
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Old 2007-05-07, 02:59   Link #53
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But do notice that a mages does not require the use of ID to cast spells.
You can throw a rock, and it's called a projectile, but is it as effective as shooting a gun?

Devices strengthen magic, they're not needed, but they strengthen.
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Old 2007-05-07, 03:06   Link #54
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@BatAttack, Since in Nanoha they did say Magic is similar to math models used on Earth, I do belive there is proper physics/math model for all magic then.
The mathematics behind Midchildan magic are either relatively simple or completely different from what we use. I hate to keep parroting myself, but Nanoha can use simple magic without her device and without understanding calculus.
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Old 2007-05-07, 03:34   Link #55
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Hehe yes. I dont know why I'm doubting. Maybe its because of the Revolver Knuckle. To hit harder it uses some kind of mechanical propulsion system, instead of a spell. Well, maybe it is a spell, as it uses cartridges... Hmm. Ah, I give up. Yes, Subaru is Reinforcement, if only because she doesnt fit anywhere else.
The thing is, the Subaru's RK doesn't always use cartridges to work. There is probably a default setting for continuous strength [it appears to be linked to Mach Caliber for this] that allows the girl to smack the opposition and throw lots of metal around.

In ep5, the revolver unit served as a power generator for her ranged attack. Notice, she spins it manually before casting the magic missile instead of using a cartridge. Cartridge use IMO have always been to augment an existing attack, that or as a means to sidestep complex incantation.
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Old 2007-05-07, 03:43   Link #56
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The mathematics behind Midchildan magic are either relatively simple or completely different from what we use. I hate to keep parroting myself, but Nanoha can use simple magic without her device and without understanding calculus.

I'm inclined to think Raging Heart is helping her out there..

The 'Intelligent' part of the Device should be good for more than just speaking basic commands...

Without Raging Heart, I don't think young Nanoha would have been able to do a lot.
Now that she is older she would probably be able to get by.. but then, she is probably overly-reliant on her I.D. - I wonder if years of I.D. use have made her soft?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko
Devices strengthen magic, they're not needed, but they strengthen.
Hmmm... I thought rather that they make it easier to cast, as they take over some of the functions. Without a device, a Mage has to do it all themselves, and can't spare the concentration... thus limiting themselves to simpler spells.

That's just my intuitive understanding of it.
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Old 2007-05-07, 04:03   Link #57
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I always kind of assumed that when she did that training at the start of A's RH wasn't doing anything for her.
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Old 2007-05-07, 04:29   Link #58
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I'm inclined to think Raging Heart is helping her out there..

The 'Intelligent' part of the Device should be good for more than just speaking basic commands...

Without Raging Heart, I don't think young Nanoha would have been able to do a lot.
Now that she is older she would probably be able to get by.. but then, she is probably overly-reliant on her I.D. - I wonder if years of I.D. use have made her soft?
That's like saying a tank driver is useless without his tank. Of course he is! But he became a tank driver because he's dangerous when he's in one.

Though Nanoha has been seen practicing magic without RH. Cue first episode of A's

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Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
Hmmm... I thought rather that they make it easier to cast, as they take over some of the functions. Without a device, a Mage has to do it all themselves, and can't spare the concentration... thus limiting themselves to simpler spells.

That's just my intuitive understanding of it.
That's what I meant, actually. Should have worded it better.

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I always kind of assumed that when she did that training at the start of A's RH wasn't doing anything for her.
Unless you include keeping count...
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Old 2007-05-07, 04:49   Link #59
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Haha, yes, except keeping count.

I've seen it as unison device > intelligent device > storage device > no device but manifesting a diagram > pure willpower.

With pure willpower apparently the province of pretty much just Yuuno.

And the familiars, but I imagine they've got built-in abilities.
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Old 2007-05-07, 04:59   Link #60
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I've seen it as unison device > intelligent device > storage device > no device but manifesting a diagram > pure willpower.

With pure willpower apparently the province of pretty much just Yuuno.
Erm...whut?

What's the difference? Yuuno and Lindy both fall under those categories, anyway.
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