AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Discussion > Older Series > Nanoha

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-05-07, 16:20   Link #101
Kikaifan
Blazing General
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 28
Well magic is an English word, of course they don't use it. Seid/Seidr/whatever is usually translated to 'sorcery' or 'witchcraft' so I'd think it's what you're looking for.

In Sayings of the High One Odin never describes his art as a 'magic' in my translation but he lists individual spells. Given that 'use of spells' is how we define magic I'd consider it a reference to magic as we use the term.
__________________
Kikaifan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 16:52   Link #102
Woden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Alright, so "sorcery" seems to be the closest so far... I'm hesitant to join spells and magic directly, as at one point the text I think you're talking about goes into the "Song of Spells" according to my translation. Outside of the title, the other time I see "spell" used is it is followed shortly by "when I sing that song". So unless the Norse had some other meaning behind "song" (all my research is independent so I'm not sure) I'm not entirely sure what he meant by spell. My dictionary also says that spell can mean "irresistible influence" which could clearly mean an amazing song.
Woden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 16:57   Link #103
Kikaifan
Blazing General
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 28
Ah, in the case of Seid the spells were supposed to be invoked by songs. Odin's rune spells are described as being chanted too.

Odin specifically describes the effects; things like putting out fires, making making an enemy's weapons ineffective, etc. that are obviously 'magical' and not just the product of good singing.
__________________
Kikaifan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 17:06   Link #104
Woden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
I've seen some amazing things done by people who were singing. Not to mention that I've read accounts of entire ships being saved by a group of people who suddenly broke out into song and found the strength to move a massive object (I think it was a mast) that they couldn't move before. Also, my translation says something about blunting weapons. Even with the little my school taught us about the Norse, we learned these were people whose armies featured warriors who the British claimed fought without shirts and who barely seemed to notice their wounds. Even more, the Norse won for quite some time. When they say "blunt" do they really mean ineffective or "it doesn't hurt as much as it should"?

Still, it would seem that the Norse did refer to something being along the lines of "magic" as opposed to divine intervention. Wait, didn't the Egyptians record books of charms and spells to aid the dead in their travels to the afterlife? Why aren't these part of the common concept of "magic"?

Last edited by Woden; 2007-05-07 at 17:22.
Woden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 17:16   Link #105
Kikaifan
Blazing General
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 28
(Cut out a lot of the random verse but the descriptions of what they do are verbatim)

One which is called help and will help you against accusations and sorrows and every sort of anxiety

One which need by known by those who wish to become physicians

One which fetters my enemy, the edges of my foe I can blunt, neither weapon nor club will bite for them

One so that if men put chains upon my limbs, I can chant so that I can walk away, fetters spring from my feet and bonds from my hands

One so that if I see a dart fly amidst the army it cannot fly so fast I cannot stop it

One if I see towering flames in the hall about my companions, it cannot burn so widely that I cannot counteract it

One that if hatred flares between the sons of warriors I can bring settlement

One to protect my ship at sea, the wind I can lull upon the wave and quieten all the sea to sleep.

One if I see witches playing up in the air I can bring it about that they can't make their way back to their own shapes and spirits.

One when leading loyal friends into battle, under the shields I chant and they journey inviolate

One if I see a dangling corpse in a noose I can so carve and color the runes that the man walks and talks with me.

One if i shall pour water over a young warrior he will not fall though he goes into battle, before swords he will not sink

One to know the difference between elves and men (???)

(from there on they're either very abstract and refer to previous uses rather than the actual effect or allow him to seduce women)


At the very least I think that animating the dead is quite an achievement.
__________________
Kikaifan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 17:33   Link #106
Woden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Yep, the Norse seem to have referenced something close to magic as being from something besides holiness. Yet the implementation they recommend hasn't made in into today's common perception of magic...

The reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering if the idea of "magic" isn't just a catch-all term created by the major monotheistic religions for things not using divine power or technology.
Woden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 17:52   Link #107
Meophist
Tell me who I am.
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Why don't you guys just check Wikipedia's article on the magic instead?
Meophist is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 18:39   Link #108
Woden
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Because it isn't exactly a reliable source, and is horribly unsatisfying. It isn't nearly comprehensive enough for the kind of studies I'm interested in, and when it comes to the actual ideas of magic itself lacks any depth deeper than you can get from a good look at D&D supplements. It is also fairly politically blind, which destroys half the fun for me.
Woden is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 19:02   Link #109
Kikaifan
Blazing General
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woden View Post
Yep, the Norse seem to have referenced something close to magic as being from something besides holiness. Yet the implementation they recommend hasn't made in into today's common perception of magic...

The reason I'm asking is that I'm wondering if the idea of "magic" isn't just a catch-all term created by the major monotheistic religions for things not using divine power or technology.
The idea that knowing symbols of power is a way of gaining 'magical' powers seems to be the main Norse contribution to modern-fantasy conceptions. And as you say they're somewhat unique in that the gods can expand their powers by learning magic as opposed to being inherently above needing it.
__________________
Kikaifan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 23:00   Link #110
Darco_emp
Bored and Lurking ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Under a cardboard box
Send a message via MSN to Darco_emp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
I'd say that goes against your theory. "It is completely unrelated to the characteristics"- Wavelength in magic has no effect on its properties outside color, totally different from real EM radiation where wavelength is the defining property.
That is that is only of the colour through, besides in my equations the frequency w, which is related to wavelength is completly unrelated to the structure anyways (note w can be anything). its the Phase and the Amp of that is defines the spell.

Anyway time for me to be off again.
__________________
Thanks to Hoshi_Kawa for this avater
Darco_emp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-07, 23:48   Link #111
Kikaifan
Blazing General
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 28
So in your model magic is nothing like real EM radiation.
__________________
Kikaifan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 00:44   Link #112
Darco_emp
Bored and Lurking ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Under a cardboard box
Send a message via MSN to Darco_emp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
So in your model magic is nothing like real EM radiation.
It is a sine wave AM carrier A*sin(wt + ǿ) , I thought I made it clear hmm. Maybe not since I did try to expain the physical dmg factor with dual properties with this as well. so maybe that got related to E=hf.

I like good argument so if this model does rasie problem to the floor I'm happy to debate it out .
__________________
Thanks to Hoshi_Kawa for this avater
Darco_emp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 03:44   Link #113
Kikaifan
Blazing General
 
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: CA
Age: 28
If you're just saying that magical 'energy' has a waveform I don't have a problem.

If you're saying that magical energy is an EM wave, I do have a problem, mostly with the fact that EM waves have specific properties that don't include turning into glowing pink death balls because a little girl with a very fancy pocket calculator wanted them to.
__________________
Kikaifan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 07:00   Link #114
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
If you're just saying that magical 'energy' has a waveform I don't have a problem.

If you're saying that magical energy is an EM wave, I do have a problem, mostly with the fact that EM waves have specific properties that don't include turning into glowing pink death balls because a little girl with a very fancy pocket calculator wanted them to.
I must admit I contradicted myself by oversimplify mana into EM like I did to gravity once to show how anti-gravity works. Promptly got shot down faster than Nanoha does Accel Shooter. *cringe*

I second the notion that magical energy has a waveform property. I believe it also has particulate properties, which I'm sure would come in handy in some way, just can't think of what at the moment.

Also, as an additional application of my anti-entropical theory on the nature of mana, is it far fetched to say that ceremonial spells appeal to the organized "living" characteristics of mana in order to cast them? As in, not just providing the maths to charge/aim/fire the spell, you also have to convince the magic to follow it?
__________________
Kha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 07:31   Link #115
Darco_emp
Bored and Lurking ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Under a cardboard box
Send a message via MSN to Darco_emp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kikaifan View Post
If you're just saying that magical 'energy' has a waveform I don't have a problem.

If you're saying that magical energy is an EM wave, I do have a problem, mostly with the fact that EM waves have specific properties that don't include turning into glowing pink death balls because a little girl with a very fancy pocket calculator wanted them to.
Lol, that is one of the point that I'm to work out, since even when the color is based on wavelength, I can not get pink nor white for that matter. maybe overlay of over a range of frequencies I guess...

Partical properties does only one thing in my book and that is to level cities , I guess H bonding will also use it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha
Also, as an additional application of my anti-entropical theory on the nature of mana, is it far fetched to say that ceremonial spells appeal to the organized "living" characteristics of mana in order to cast them? As in, not just providing the maths to charge/aim/fire the spell, you also have to convince the magic to follow it?
Wha... That just flew over me...
__________________
Thanks to Hoshi_Kawa for this avater
Darco_emp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 07:34   Link #116
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Also, as an additional application of my anti-entropical theory on the nature of mana, is it far fetched to say that ceremonial spells appeal to the organized "living" characteristics of mana in order to cast them? As in, not just providing the maths to charge/aim/fire the spell, you also have to convince the magic to follow it?
I doupt it, otherwise 'reflexive spellcasting' wouldn't work, because no matter the speed at which you can cast, there will always be time needed to 'convince' the energies to co÷perate. Imagine needing to erect a barrier and having the energies being troublesome.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 08:11   Link #117
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I doupt it, otherwise 'reflexive spellcasting' wouldn't work, because no matter the speed at which you can cast, there will always be time needed to 'convince' the energies to co÷perate. Imagine needing to erect a barrier and having the energies being troublesome.
Hmm true.

Well I've got the problem of why ceremonial spells exist. They sound rather beseeching in nature. The presence of SB means that just a mute charging phase would suffice if one is delaying cast to charge power, so no help from there. Any ideas?
__________________
Kha is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 08:36   Link #118
Darco_emp
Bored and Lurking ~
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Under a cardboard box
Send a message via MSN to Darco_emp
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Hmm true.

Well I've got the problem of why ceremonial spells exist. They sound rather beseeching in nature. The presence of SB means that just a mute charging phase would suffice if one is delaying cast to charge power, so no help from there. Any ideas?
SLB and most of Nanoha's spells in genral uses a storage function in the IDs with a loading time and energy build up, (I tried to find the passage for this be failed).and maybe due to the "size" of the storage memory can not hold things like ceremonial spells with long incantations or such, they need to be chanted
__________________
Thanks to Hoshi_Kawa for this avater
Darco_emp is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 08:43   Link #119
Keroko
Adeptus Animus
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 27
Starlight Breaker's long casting time can also be circumvented by expending an entire magazine of cardridges to provide the charge. Perhaps ceremonial spells are like passwords and actions.
__________________
Keroko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-05-08, 09:01   Link #120
Kha
~ I Do ~
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by Darco_emp View Post
SLB and most of Nanoha's spells in genral uses a storage function in the IDs with a loading time and energy build up, (I tried to find the passage for this be failed).and maybe due to the "size" of the storage memory can not hold things like ceremonial spells with long incantations or such, they need to be chanted
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Starlight Breaker's long casting time can also be circumvented by expending an entire magazine of cardridges to provide the charge. Perhaps ceremonial spells are like passwords and actions.
Hmm... Well then the Book can store a heck load of data, but Hayate seems to be the one with the most ceremonials. But for passwords, wouldn't a "USB Key" suffice? However while reading the responses, my mind latched onto something from school.

Evolutionary baggage: Basically the parts and structures carried over from a previous species that the current one evolved from. May or may not have any beneficial use.

Maybe the ceremonies still function as passwords to a higher power only because they were the predominant form of powerful magics that predated the modern IDs and SDs, and mages cling to it for cultural reasons?
__________________
Kha is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:57.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.