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Old 2007-05-08, 09:02   Link #121
LoweGear
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On the subject of ceremonial spells:

I have always been under the impression, ever since I the first time I wanted to clarify magic, that ceremonial spells are nothing more than extremely fancy mnemonic tools, designed to focus the mage's mind in order to better concentrate and focus the large amounts of magic necessary for certain spells. People of course do speak out loud whenever they want to concentrate on the job at hand, like counting large amounts of something for example, or if they don't want to get confused in following the steps in a certain complex procedure.

It also leads me to believe that, given enough time and experience, a mage would sooner or later be able to concentrate such spells without incantations, since they have already learned the spell enough to focus their minds without the incantation, i.e. like how people stop reciting the steps of a procedure when they've memorized it enough.
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Old 2007-05-08, 09:11   Link #122
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That was actually what I meant couldn't find the right wording in the five seconds I had to post.
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Old 2007-05-08, 09:40   Link #123
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
On the subject of ceremonial spells:

I have always been under the impression, ever since I the first time I wanted to clarify magic, that ceremonial spells are nothing more than extremely fancy mnemonic tools, designed to focus the mage's mind in order to better concentrate and focus the large amounts of magic necessary for certain spells. People of course do speak out loud whenever they want to concentrate on the job at hand, like counting large amounts of something for example, or if they don't want to get confused in following the steps in a certain complex procedure.

It also leads me to believe that, given enough time and experience, a mage would sooner or later be able to concentrate such spells without incantations, since they have already learned the spell enough to focus their minds without the incantation, i.e. like how people stop reciting the steps of a procedure when they've memorized it enough.
The thought that Hayate can logically just play back anything recorded in her Little Brown/Blue Book, but she isn't doing so, just keeps nagging at me and wouldn't go away. I understand what ceremonial spells do in non-ID eras, and it is perfect explained in BLEACH kidou techniques, but this is Nanoha, where there are arca-tronic aids to memory in a Device, and the Book can hold 666 pages worth of Linker Core data. Isn't that enough to hold the full data for a ceremonial spell?

Wait another thought just hit me: Maybe that saves space, and so Hayate can cram more into that Book? But that means she's trading speed for functionality... Hmm...

I think I'm thinking too much into this.
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Old 2007-05-08, 09:43   Link #124
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Well, you do have to remember that the book was technically formatted when the original Reinforce vanished. In other words, right now its practically empty, only containing whatever Hayate has been gathering these last few years.
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Old 2007-05-08, 09:45   Link #125
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Or maybe, the book works on a different concept. Maybe the data stored in the book is so massive that it takes an incantation to actually extract the data meaningfully from the book? Or, the book itself as used by Hayate today is an anachronism that, while potentially extremely powerful, isn't quite "up-to-spec" to current magic technologies, either due to the mechanics of the book that do give it it's power, or because of Hayate's sentimentality?
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Old 2007-05-08, 09:48   Link #126
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Well, the Yami no Sho was a Lost Logia. Personally, I think incantations are like Hayate's version of cardridges. Some spells need cardridges to work, some of Hayate's spells need incantations to work.
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Old 2007-05-08, 09:58   Link #127
Kha
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Well, you do have to remember that the book was technically formatted when the original Reinforce vanished. In other words, right now its practically empty, only containing whatever Hayate has been gathering these last few years.
Hmm... No wonder there's no Starlight Breaker on tap anymore. I wonder what Hayate fills it pages with now?

Then again, has she been chasing lost pages during her off hours a la Cardcaptor Sakura? After all, she's the leading girl and Tomoyo in one nifty package.

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Originally Posted by LoweGear View Post
Or maybe, the book works on a different concept. Maybe the data stored in the book is so massive that it takes an incantation to actually extract the data meaningfully from the book? Or, the book itself as used by Hayate today is an anachronism that, while potentially extremely powerful, isn't quite "up-to-spec" to current magic technologies, either due to the mechanics of the book that do give it it's power, or because of Hayate's sentimentality?
BINGO! Archaic tech level and possibly practices. Gives her cool screen time and adds variety to the high-speed no nonsense approaches of her colleagues too. And maybe her "cosplay" habits means that she's the type that digs role play so much that she loves to act like an Oldtype?

I wonder how much of that was me being serious and me with tongue in cheek. I felt like I swung from pole to pole while typing.
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Old 2007-05-08, 10:18   Link #128
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Could be a two-tiered system. Incantation is a way to increase synchronization between caster and device effort or refine the output to some degree necessary for the device to make use of it. After all, since the caster possesses the linker core I imagine their control over it continues to be important no matter how powerful a device they have handling the later-stage/external manipulations.
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Old 2007-05-08, 11:19   Link #129
Erio
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For me, mages use incantations in order to concentrate for the collection of external energy and the organization of such massive amounts of energy. I say 'collection' because I'm pretty sure the energy gathered was summoned somehow. In other words, the energy used for these big spells do not come only from the caster.

A good example of this is Nanoha's Starlight Breaker, where Nanoha takes time to collects external energy, though we dont see Nanoha recite an incantation in order to collect the energy. Another example is Fate's Photon Lancer Phalanx Shift spell in episode 11, first season. Hayate definitely has the advantage here, because her Book is a massive storage device capable of storing energy from various different sources, so technically she does not need to summon or gather energy from external sources to cast her big spells.


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I'm going a bit out of the way here, as I thought of a few interesting ideas. Dont take this part too seriously.

(I think of "ceremonial" spells as just "collection" spells)

Thinking about Geomancers from Dungeons & Dragons, what if the mage needs the surrounding area to have the correct type of energy for him or her to gather and use in the ceremonial spells?

Example: Nanoha's Starlight Breaker, again, collects the scattered energy leftover from the battle. If she decides to use Starlight Breaker at the beginning of the battle, the power of the spell would be meager compared to the same spell if used later.

What if Atem des Eises can only be casted in cold areas? Then Hayate must have stored ice-elemental energy in her Book. In other words, if she needs ice-elemental energy, she goes to the pages of the book where she stored that type of energy. This would explain why Hayate uses ceremonial spells.

Disclaimer: I completely invented this crazy idea. No matter if its wrong, I thought it was interesting.
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Old 2007-05-08, 18:41   Link #130
Kikaifan
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Actually makes sense even if it does come only from the caster. After all, if the mages have limited output on a per-second basis longer spellcasting = more power s a natural assumption.

Though such a mechanism limits the advantage of collection spells to probably just an increase in speed over ritual magic.

Actually does anyone mind bringing to the table thoughts on exactly how Nanoha mages are limited in calling up magical energy? I always got the impression from Chrono's 'exceeding the limits of her througput' comment that they were only limited by how much they could channel at once, not some larger store like Slayers/most RPG characters/etc., but now that I think about it the statement could just as easily be taken to establish a secondary limit on volume of throughput over larger timescales.
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Old 2007-05-08, 21:36   Link #131
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Storage is one thing, but execution is another.

Your storage device might be able to store the entire ceremonial spell, but it could just be that ceremonial spells have a long cast time because they have to be deployed in stages - you cannot go onto the next phase until the previous one has been sucesfully complete.

And, as symbols have power (like the sygils in the magic circles), words could also have power. It could be that when Fate names the various entities in Phalanx Shift, she is doing so so she can tap into their power. So the words of the incantation might have very real importance to the spell's execution, rather than being some arbitrary mnemonic trick..

After all, the show's name is Lyrical Nanoha - lyrics are words; might this hint that the words are an integral requirement of the Nanohaverse's magic system?
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Old 2007-05-08, 21:39   Link #132
Kikaifan
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I wish baka-tsuki or someone would translate the novel... it's hard to have these discussions when just a few people know the content.
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Old 2007-05-08, 22:26   Link #133
Erio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BatAttack View Post
After all, the show's name is Lyrical Nanoha - lyrics are words; might this hint that the words are an integral requirement of the Nanohaverse's magic system?
Haha, its weird that Nanoha doesnt use an incantation for Starlight Breaker, but Fate and Hayate do when using their bigger spells.

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I wish baka-tsuki or someone would translate the novel... it's hard to have these discussions when just a few people know the content.
What novel is this?
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Old 2007-05-08, 22:34   Link #134
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Haha, its weird that Nanoha doesnt use an incantation for Starlight Breaker, but Fate and Hayate do when using their bigger spells.
~
MSLN...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A's...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A few episodes later...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

Manga...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER!"
~~~~ ~~~~

The point is... Nanoha is using Starlight Breaker on a "regular" basis. It stands to reason that she would have learnt to be very comfortable with the equations needed to cast it (regardless of complexity).

As anyone who has ever dabbled with mathematics will know, if you have to write an equation over and over again, you WILL memorise it by heart whether you like it or not, until you start to stop using it, only THEN will you start to forget it.

Fate and Hayate on the other hand, do not spam their "Ceremonial Spells" like cheap hotbuns on a Baker's Sale. Given the supposed complexity of such spells, it is understandable that they need to do it the "normal" way and do the chant.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-05-08, 22:44   Link #135
Erio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
MSLN...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A's...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

A few episodes later...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER!"

Manga...

Nanoha: "STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER! STARLIGHT BREAKER!"
~~~~ ~~~~

The point is... Nanoha is using Starlight Breaker on a "regular" basis. It stands to reason that she would have learnt to be very comfortable with the equations needed to cast it (regardless of complexity).

As anyone who has ever dabbled with mathematics will know, if you have to write an equation over and over again, you WILL memorise it by heart whether you like it or not, until you start to stop using it, only THEN will you start to forget it.

Fate and Hayate on the other hand, do not spam their "Ceremonial Spells" like cheap hotbuns on a Baker's Sale. Given the supposed complexity of such spells, it is understandable that they need to do it the "normal" way and do the chant.

Cheers.
Yes, that's something that applies to everything you do. It's obvious. Your theory would make sense if she had to recite an incantation the first time but not the rest... but she never had to!

The point of my comment was that Nanoha has never had a spell that required incantation. The only time she recited one was when first activating Raising Heart. Yet the series is called "Lyrical Nanoha." Not that I'm complaining. I just find it funny.
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Old 2007-05-08, 22:58   Link #136
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Originally Posted by Erio View Post
Yes, that's something that applies to everything you do. It's obvious. Your theory would make sense if she had to recite an incantation the first time but not the rest... but she never had to!

The point of my comment was that Nanoha has never had a spell that required incantation. The only time she recited one was when first activating Raising Heart. Yet the series is called "Lyrical Nanoha." Not that I'm complaining. I just find it funny.
Well, this brings us back to the manga, where we know Nanoha does intensive self-training on her own. When she used Starlight Breaker(SB) on Fate, it was NOT the first time that Nanoha had used it before (and her words to Fate said it as much as well).

To put it simply, we did not get to see HOW Nanoha learnt SB in the first place. They skipped that part. What we DO know is that Nanoha uses SB very regularly, and so it stands to reason that she will be well-acquainted with its equations by now.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-05-08, 23:15   Link #137
Erio
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Well, this brings us back to the manga, where we know Nanoha does intensive self-training on her own. When she used Starlight Breaker(SB) on Fate, it was NOT the first time that Nanoha had used it before (and her words to Fate said it as much as well).

To put it simply, we did not get to see HOW Nanoha learnt SB in the first place. They skipped that part. What we DO know is that Nanoha uses SB very regularly, and so it stands to reason that she will be well-acquainted with its equations by now.

Cheers.
That does make sense. Surely she had to come up with the idea behind SB before she used it against Fate in the anime, I have no doubt. I still believe, however, that Starlight Breaker does not require an incantation. It is just a powered up version of Divine Buster, using particles of leftover magic from the battlefield to increase the power.

Oh well, I dont think we will go anywhere discussing this, as there is no solid proof to back either of our claims. One thing is for certain, though: she does have a lot more experience using it, and surely the casting speed is increased, as well as the destructive power.
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Old 2007-05-08, 23:20   Link #138
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Hrmm. I thought Nanoha did say that was the first time.
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Old 2007-05-08, 23:25   Link #139
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My take on the Nanohaverse magic system

I've come to think of those magic circles as a form of scaffolding to actually hold, convert then finally transmit the energies into a magical effect. It's easier to think that by actually summoning one it's a way of saying "Start Here" before adding to the structure for different effects. There has to be some sort of universal principle to work on for the various spheres and disciplines of magic in this show, otherwise it just cannot be taught or even replicated through artifacts. The summoning of that incantation circle would have to be so critical to spellcasting that a mage must call for one in an instant, possibly trained until it becomes a reflex action.

Take Subaru's Wing Road for example: it begins as her incantation circle before expanding into a solid ribbon. My take on the process for this spell is first the Circle as the base, the link to her Linker Core to power the spell, finally the conversion and transmission of the effect. For something like Caro's summoners circle, the massive size would have been required to gather the energies and decompress her familiar as well as install the control mechanisms.

It would also have to take all her will and concentration to execute, any mistake and Fred would have likely gone berserk. The user's confidence and skill in building a structure of the size and complexity needed would have to be important, so one would have to appreciate the skill and mana store required to pull that sort of summoning off.

Anyway, an artifact would likely have these steps preprogrammed into the system for quick access, all it would require is the intent of the user. It can either cast the spell by itself or increase the success rate by reducing user error in expanding the spell structure.

May also explain why Jewel Seeds or other unknown artifacts run amok- one of the above 4 elements or Circle, Power, Program and Transmission is either incompatible or somehow corrupted in the automated system. These are pretty old things, likely with an Incantation Circle built in that is completely alien to the one the user has [like a different computer language]. Or it has a power source that conflicts with the Linker Core of the user. Corrupted Program is what the Tome of the Night Sky illustrates . Failure to Execute I'd say is catastrophic nuclear meltdown. Definately not pretty.

The AMF working on the above principle would have to distrupt any of the above elements of a spell in order to work. The easiest way would be to leech away the power source or distrupt the circle or transmission. In ep5 the AMF drone did this.

Anyway, Vita's explaination of the different sort of defensive field that can be used is quite interesting. She illustrated 3 types: The Barrier which is a concentrated and limited area shield which appears like the incantation circle spinning rapidly, The Protection shield for complete cover and the diffused defense field generated from the body. The common denominator was how the incantation circle was used and how the artifact would have executed it. It's possible that a defense field is "on" all the time from the use of the Barrier Jacket.
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Old 2007-05-08, 23:25   Link #140
Erio
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Hrmm. I thought Nanoha did say that was the first time.
Yeah, that's what I thought too. While she had an idea of what to do (probably because she is an avid gamer), it was the first time she tried it.
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