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Old 2007-05-20, 01:49   Link #1
WanderingKnight
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Creationism / Intelligent design

Some time ago, I learned that there was this group of people in America, called "Creationists", who claimed that Darwin's evolutionist theory was wrong, and that everything is the work of god, just the way it was written in the bible, letter by letter--even going as far as to state that the universe is only 6000 years old. Now, I thought that they were a minor faction, a mere group of fanatics similar to the Scientology. But that was until I learned about this. My first thought was, "where the hell did they pull so much money from?!". But details aside, I went to this neat little page, Answers in Genesis. Mixed in among things like prayer requests and an online store, there was this little document, if it may be called so, that ignores so many Scientific Method theories and facts that it's just overwhelming.

I know this thread might sound a little strange or out of place, but after browsing around that page, I felt that I needed some place to pour my thoughts in.

OK, to give the thread some topic, I'll ask a question for you Americans, who live much nearer to the center of the matter than me--is Creationism really that influential? Do many people believe in it?

EDIT: I edited the OP--sorry, it was 5 AM when I did this and I couldn't bring together very cohesive thoughts...
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Last edited by WanderingKnight; 2007-05-20 at 10:22.
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Old 2007-05-20, 02:31   Link #2
xris
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We've already had this discussion before, in the closed Evolution or Creationism? thread, so I expect this thread will be closed soon enough (since by your own words, and by the original thread title, the purpose of the thread is to offend people).
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Old 2007-05-20, 02:44   Link #3
WanderingKnight
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OK, then, close it, I don't mind now that you tell me this was already discussed.
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Old 2007-05-20, 03:15   Link #4
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lol Wandering, I thought it was common knowledge that the "Intelligent Design" argument/hypothesis (I'll avoid the word theory for now, since I don't believe it to be applicable) has quite a few proponents in the United States.

The US tends to take Christianity quite seriously after all. As opposed to (North Western) Europe where agnosts are just about a majority and preachers and other religious leaders will say the bible isn't to be taken too literally (compromising on the absoluteness of the bible rather than fighting the claims of science.). I don't know what the situation is like in Argentina though, I was under the impression that South America is reasonably religious, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

There is nothing wrong with thinking it highly unlikely or irrational etc. Personally, I find these claims about as plausible as a flat earth. But if your aim is truly to start a discussion on the matter posts like your initial one are the exact opposite of what is needed. "ridiculous", "bullshit" and "repulsive" are NOT words fitting to objective, opionating discussion. The only adverse responses you are likely to receive to that are flames.

Then again, perhaps you just wanted a thread for bashing ppl with beliefs different from your own with likeminded peepz. In which case the thread is indeed better off closed.
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Old 2007-05-20, 03:25   Link #5
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lol. I have been raised such that just the word "evolution" has a sinister connotation, so I find it bizarre that Creationism could be so foreign to someone.
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Old 2007-05-20, 03:26   Link #6
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Before this is closed I want to post this video:




This should explain everything one needs to know about the LUE. Thread Closed...........Dammit, Keep Forgetting I don't have that power.
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Old 2007-05-20, 03:28   Link #7
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A religious debate thread on an internet forum. I forsee great things for this thread.












Not really. Are we closed yet?
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Old 2007-05-20, 03:32   Link #8
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I made a thread before about Creation vs Evolution before AS got hacked. It didn't turn out too well, too.

I watched a documentary about this 2 days ago on Showtime. Of course it was interesting, and after all of that I would support on the side of Intelligent Design. But I no doubt have some beliefs from the Creationism side too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crovax
lol Wandering, I thought it was common knowledge that the "Intelligent Design" argument/hypothesis (I'll avoid the word theory for now, since I don't believe it to be applicable) has quite a few proponents in the United States.

The US tends to take Christianity quite seriously after all. As opposed to (North Western) Europe where agnosts are just about a majority and preachers and other religious leaders will say the bible isn't to be taken too literally (compromising on the absoluteness of the bible rather than fighting the claims of science.). I don't know what the situation is like in Argentina though, I was under the impression that South America is reasonably religious, but perhaps I'm mistaken.

There is nothing wrong with thinking it highly unlikely or irrational etc. Personally, I find these claims about as plausible as a flat earth. But if your aim is truly to start a discussion on the matter posts like your initial one are the exact opposite of what is needed. "ridiculous", "bullshit" and "repulsive" are NOT words fitting to objective, opionating discussion. The only adverse responses you are likely to receive to that are flames.

Then again, perhaps you just wanted a thread for bashing ppl with beliefs different from your own with likeminded peepz. In which case the thread is indeed better off closed.
Agreed. But I would like to hear peoples opinion, at least like 50 post before this thread is closed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderingknight
PS: And if you're a Creationist, and you felt offended by my words, well... I'm tempted to say "it was my intention!"
This is pure flaming, creating a thread with lots of significant uses, but just to post that message to offend users, especially just for that purpose is very unbecoming.
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Old 2007-05-20, 10:22   Link #9
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Well, reading again, I went too overboard--it was 5 AM when I made that post, seems I wasn't thinking pretty clearly. Sorry if I offended anyone, and again, I vouch for the closing of the thread if this has already been discussed.
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Old 2007-05-20, 10:38   Link #10
Jaden
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I'm not so suprised that so many ignore the theory of evolution, since so many are serious about christianity. Believing in evolution would make them hypocrites.
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Old 2007-05-20, 10:46   Link #11
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Well, I think it's possible to believe in evolution and at the same time remain serious about christianity. Are the two really mutually exclusive...?
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Old 2007-05-20, 11:06   Link #12
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Quote:
Well, I think it's possible to believe in evolution and at the same time remain serious about christianity. Are the two really mutually exclusive...?
I'm talking about the hardcore guys, those Creation Scientists, who firmly believe that the Earth is no more than 6000 years old. That does exclude the theory of evolution and biology in general. Of course, you may be religious, believe in the creation, god, and whatever you please, but while finding a way to accommodate your belief to science, which is what many people do in Europe and lots of other places.
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Old 2007-05-20, 11:20   Link #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by innominate View Post
Well, I think it's possible to believe in evolution and at the same time remain serious about christianity. Are the two really mutually exclusive...?
No; Christianity and a scientific outlook are not mutually exclusive unless one believes that the Bible is a literal account of what happened. Neither Creationism nor Intelligent Design are scientific.
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Old 2007-05-20, 11:24   Link #14
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Quote:
No; Christianity and a scientific outlook are not mutually exclusive unless one believes that the Bible is a literal account of what happened. Neither Creationism nor Intelligent Design are scientific.
Well, to clarify further, I'll quote the Wikipedia to let know people what kind of "creationism" I'm talking about:

Quote:
Advocates of Creation science lay claim to the methods and empirical practices of science, that is, the scientific method, to assert that scientific evidence supports a literal interpretation of the Biblical account of creation.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creation_science

That's what I'm against. I have nothing against people believing in god, creation or anything of the sort--I'm against those so-called scientists that deny such basic principles as the theory of evolution for the sake of their religious belief.
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Old 2007-05-20, 11:24   Link #15
Jaden
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Well, even here in Finland there are a few christian schools where the parts with evolution in biology classes are skipped because it's blasphemy. I was under the impression that you don't have to be a very "hardcore" christian to accept creationism and that it's an integral part of the religion. But I wouldn't know, all my influences in life have been atheist and I don't know much about christianity.
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Old 2007-05-20, 11:32   Link #16
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Quote:
Well, even here in Finland there are a few christian schools where the parts with evolution in biology classes are skipped because it's blasphemy.
I went to a religious school when I was a kid (mainly because the public schools near my house were too crappy). I remember pretty clearly our catechism teacher telling us that the bible was not to be taken literally, that most parts of it were metaphors--for example, that Adam and Eve weren't to be thought as two single persons, but as a metaphor for tribes/peoples.
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Old 2007-05-20, 12:07   Link #17
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Creationism doesn't hold up in it's current form ... by default it's anti-christian.

Basically they would have to believe it's fact and teach it as a fact if they want to stay true to Christianity. So when you call it 'creationism' and try to support it with evidence ... you're basically doubting god and unintentionally admitting that it is a theory.

Intelligent design makes sense to me overall. I mean even if you establish that life could have began randomly evolved there is no evidence to support that this is how it started.
I am not religious, but I leave the possibility of intelligent design open. I don't believe it's plausible, but defitnitely possible.

Wandering Knight ... if you haven't seen 'Jesus Camp' yet you should.

Fanatics don't look sane under any religion, and often have contradiction in their own belief.
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Last edited by Lexander; 2007-05-20 at 12:18.
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Old 2007-05-20, 12:17   Link #18
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Quote:
So when you call it 'creationism' and try to support it with evidence ... you're basically doubting god.
Whoa, that's a point I never saw made. I'm not versed in christianity enough to doubt what you're saying, so I take it this is an accepted view?
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Old 2007-05-20, 12:27   Link #19
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I'm not sure if it's an accpeted view, but I was just thinking that if I was a christian ... having a study on proving christiniaty would be idiotic. The bible is truth ... what else is there to prove by creationism?

We already had bible studies, I would take a bible study class at our church.

Creationism is basically sort of a strategy to get people thinking that christianity holds up scientifically as well.

If I was a Christian I would dismiss science as a result of sin(another test) and teach the bible as the bible ... not creationism.

That's what I get out of it , to me creationism doesn't hold up.
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Old 2007-05-20, 12:31   Link #20
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Not only are there religious fanatics, but there are scientific fanatics too. I studied biology in university located in a very liberal city and have certain met many close minded "scientisits". While there is certainly no proof supporting intelligent design beyond "OMGZ life is sooooo complex, there must be a grand scheme!", there isn't any definitive proof discounting it either as the origin of life. I would totally accept it if we discover that life as we know it was started by some extra-dimensional being with "godly" powers a la Q in Star Trek. (What I have said is on based on intelligent design as the origin of life 2 billions years ago...not 6000 years ago.)

I think its important to keep an open mind about these kinds of things. This is true especially for scientists. Lack of evidence does not =/= evidence against. As for the religious folks it all comes down to faith. Against absolute faith there is no evidence that can convince them so I don't even try (I believe me I have tried many times).
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