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Old 2007-05-26, 07:45   Link #1041
Deathkillz
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Quote:
Originally Posted by usagijen View Post
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
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Old 2007-05-26, 07:48   Link #1042
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How can goddess be a doormat? Simply because she doesnt have attitude. I mean all such characters ike Aoi or Belldandy are the same... I've always seen Belldandy as an emotional doormat; she's an unrealistic fantasy, written to appeal to men who apparently want to marry someone who's almost completely subservient and eternally patient. She loves to cook and clean! Her eye never wanders toward other men! She supports Keichi no matter how badly he screws up! Heck, she doesn't even argue with him!

Such character as her is basically the idealized 1950's housewife stereotype, a hoary old cliche leftover from the days when gender politics were swept under the rug and females were still considered second-class citizens.

I personally would like to step into a relationship witha person so that it would be a dialog between us, rather than into a relationship with doormat, where it would be only yours monologue, and in respons you would get only echo of your own words.


Back to the topic, yeah Ayano might be a little slow here but thats one of her charms. I just wish to see her growing slowly in a process here.
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Old 2007-05-26, 07:57   Link #1043
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
How can goddess be a doormat? Simply because she doesnt have attitude. I mean all such characters ike Aoi or Belldandy are the same... I've always seen Belldandy as an emotional doormat; she's an unrealistic fantasy, written to appeal to men who apparently want to marry someone who's almost completely subservient and eternally patient. She loves to cook and clean! Her eye never wanders toward other men! She supports Keichi no matter how badly he screws up! Heck, she doesn't even argue with him!

Such character as her is basically the idealized 1950's housewife stereotype, a hoary old cliche leftover from the days when gender politics were swept under the rug and females were still considered second-class citizens.
lol yeah i know this reasoning (all too well )
you took me too seriously man
though i'm really not one to confuse entertaiment with political agenda.....hey who doesn't want a woman like belldandy ? (okay...maybe you )
and this is anime not real life lol.....i know well enough not to confuse them both

but i do agree it is more interesting to see the characters grow and develops
it's the only thing that keeps me following this show
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Old 2007-05-26, 08:21   Link #1044
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Yeah i also know the difference, yet the anime usually is the projection of our dreams that we have in reality. (bytheway its not political, its sociological agenda)

And ofcourse Belldandy looks attractive ike many anime characters do. Its just staying around her is sommething that would give me creeps.

There are many points where relaity overlaps with fiction specially in the modern society. No, I am not so very paranoic about the whole simulacrum business as Baudrillard is (who believes that we are at the point were the judgement of reality and fiction makes no sense as either is only a simulation of each other), but that we are slowly getting to that point. Its sociological-psycholigical-philosophical problem that here is no time and no place to discuss.


If going abck to KnS (again) then lets hope to get more character growth and interactions rather than action, knowing how "well" gonzo deals the action bits.
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Old 2007-05-26, 09:19   Link #1045
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
Such character as her is basically the idealized 1950's housewife stereotype, a hoary old cliche leftover from the days when gender politics were swept under the rug and females were still considered second-class citizens.

I personally would like to step into a relationship witha person so that it would be a dialog between us, rather than into a relationship with doormat, where it would be only yours monologue, and in respons you would get only echo of your own words.
you wouldnt happen to be a girl right? or that you are heavily in favor of the new kind of super women who strives to be better than guys? :3 j/k

well that was then and this is now...i guess times have changed as well as the tastes of the viewers for writers to produce storylines which portrays a headstrong girl who isnt totally dependant on the guy ~ all i can say is that this type of theme for a female character is in fashion atm whereas male leads tend to have an opposite effect from when they were popular superman type heros (like DBZ) ~

i personally like a woman who is feisty but isnt totally void of emotions ~ so yea ayano fits
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Old 2007-05-26, 09:20   Link #1046
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lol@Deathkillz, not everyone who happens to be in favor of gender equality or more intelligent portrayal of women in fiction is automatically a girl or a feminist

Ayano represents a more interesting type, albeit one who is difficult to handle. Well, teenage girls in general have many problems :-)
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Old 2007-05-26, 09:42   Link #1047
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Originally Posted by Deathkillz View Post
well that was then and this is now...i guess times have changed as well as the tastes of the viewers for writers to produce storylines which portrays a headstrong girl who isnt totally dependant on the guy ~ all i can say is that this type of theme for a female character is in fashion atm whereas male leads tend to have an opposite effect from when they were popular superman type heros (like DBZ) ~
Spoiler for off topic rant:


eheheh....maybe i watched too many shonens

that's why i had high expectations on kazuma

oh....and to darknemo2000
i kinda lost you somewhere around "whole simulacrum business as Baudrillard is "
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Old 2007-05-26, 09:45   Link #1048
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Nah, I am a male, and I am not a feminist, yet I believe in equality between genders, and I think that equality should exist in relationship as well. When one part is dominating (be it male or female) you wont get an relationship 'but a poor imitation of it.

Levin believed that relationship is a constant fight for our identitity, yet its a fight where we must not win or loose, we have to struggle inbetween. The Other (partner in a relationship) should always remain a mistery for us, something that is different from us. To become One is an illusion of romantics and poets that never really stepped into relationship, as becomming one instantly kills the relationship between individuals as it is, and turns it into a relationship between corpses - its a long term relationship or more like an attchemnt between you and a thing.

Its kind of eternal struggle since if you become too distant - relationship ends, if you become too close relkationship ends as well (yet in a different way).

What about suchh relationship as we see between Kazuma and ayano neither is really winning or losing, while Kazuma likes to pick on Ayano it doesnt mean he is dosminating as she always ready for a harsh response. In a questiion of power - no dount, Kazuma wins, but in a relationship he himself is rather attachet to Ayano (how deep, the future episodes should tell).

Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2007-05-26 at 10:01.
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Old 2007-05-26, 11:20   Link #1049
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This could be a hallmark for the series, it's so great it brings up serious discussion about gender relations . I've never really worried about the thing, but maybe it's because I've been more concerned about what's going on with my life.

I like how the characters interact in this series. Kazuma isn't the overly weak male lead who has to struggle with or be protected by the female lead. But also Ayano isn't exactly weak either with her strengths and the potential to get stronger. These two really can raise expectations because they are both in the same region. Due to the contract Kazuma is of course stronger but it's not such a massive thing and they work well together in taking down opponents.

It's nice to see that kind of balance with the characters. Kazuma always with a teasing remark and Ayano can act rashly. He's already gone through a lot of pain and loss. While these emotions of jealousy and fear that he doesn't care about her are something new to Ayano. She's struggling to deal with this while at the same time filling her role as the next head.

Funny to see how naeive Ayano can be. Though it's always hard to put her with that statement after seeing episode 5. Her imagination clearly is fully functional in what Kazuma and Misao would be doing in a hotel room.
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Old 2007-05-26, 11:29   Link #1050
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hyouzan View Post
Spoiler for off topic rant:
you missed out the spineless-lazy-jackass-wanting to be served type but its a good thing that some current series shows male leads with some GAR to balance off with the leechers
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Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post
What about suchh relationship as we see between Kazuma and ayano neither is really winning or losing, while Kazuma likes to pick on Ayano it doesnt mean he is dosminating as she always ready for a harsh response. In a questiion of power - no dount, Kazuma wins, but in a relationship he himself is rather attachet to Ayano (how deep, the future episodes should tell).
good points again the way they both act is that its not a totally one sided thing...i dont see ayano going clingly mode on kazuma or him being a total jackass about being "together" with ayano...he did after all hug ayano looking for comfort :3 so at times they can both swing either way which gives a relationship the flexibility it needs ~
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Old 2007-05-26, 12:27   Link #1051
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Kazuma's and ayano's relationship is pretty much equal. As levin would say - its a relationship between one person and another person, rather than realationship between one person and another thing.

BTW, relationship with another person as a thing doesnt mean that you would treat that other as a crap. It might be totally different. Just like we treat things. To some we have no feelings and just use, to some we feel some attachment as reminders of our youth or mistakes or something, and others we simply worship turning them into a modern fetish.

The same goes in a onesided relationship - I might treat the other person as a usable thing or might worship as a god walking on the ground, yet the main point - I would never treat him/her as equal to me, I will be either higher or lower.

Bytheway, the bigger half of long term relationships are rather relationships between a person and a thing, as you notice people who live longer with each other the realatiionship is calmer and more calculated - most pairs keep the bond usually because of attachment or the the bonds they build between each other (children, home, work). However such relationship isnt very lively. Fights happen but that doesnt mean that its a fight between equals.

To be equals we have to let the other person by himself/herself. That means giving some personal space where we wouldnt intrude. since when we know the other person throughly relationship transforms into that a person-thing. Some even experience the short satisfaction as if having conquered some land, but after that - they would loose any interest into the person.

Some people held to being first because of this strange sense of satisfaction. With first I mean - first kiss, first love or first sexual experience. it pleases our ego. In a sense its an action of ultimate conquer of the other, since no one else will be her//his first but you. yet, if you are attach to these things bit too much,you should start questioning yourself if you see your partner as a person or rather as an object , a trophy.

We saw that in anime's/mangas too right? I mean lets say the girl hunts the boy (or vice versa) until she gets what she wants then looses any interest in him and goes hunting others. Knowing other throughly is making him/her lower than you are, or making him/her fall in love with you while you yourself keep the distance - also make him/her lower.

The equality is only in the middle of relationship when we are nor too close neither too far away. I know some people who to keep such relationship through many years, but its very hard and demanding thing.

Usually realationships are short. then it either breaks or steps into a simulation where I unconsciously start treating the partner as a thing.

The other person should always be the other, yet not too distant. Thats why relationship is always a challenge - a challenge of giving where you have to give, but not too much, and taking, where you have to take but not too much again. Its a very hard challenge sadly.

If coming back to KnS - we see thye sparkle. Kazuma isnt allien to Ayanao, but they are not "ńs one"either. They can still grow closer though as they arent in a golden middle yet.

The best anime reference and illustration to all what I have said would be evangelion. If you watched it you know that in eoE movies all humanity turned into One. Basically no feeling of loneliness and in a sense an ultimate love, never ending romance - love of oneself. But this way there were no personalities left.

Other person gives us joy, but gives as sadness and pain, yet its this experience that makes us be individuals. such hurting realtionship is person-person relationship, when you treat other as thing you will eventually treat yourself thing-like and will feel strange distance from the self that goes to the work or the self that kisses that girl at the bar, and so on.

Person-person relationship is mostly based on pain and difference, yet also closeness in the difference. In evangelion Shinji chooses to return to such world, and Asuka does the same. Anno who was making it was suffering from depression at that time, so its definitely his way of expressing himself. Twisted but pretty artful way.

I dont think that KnS would reach same depth of symbolism and interpretation as Evangelion did (after all the director isnt a mentally sick weirdo), but it gives (unconsciously) of few interesting examples of person-person relationship.

....

God what I am turning this thread into?!
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Old 2007-05-26, 15:52   Link #1052
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknemo2000 View Post

God what I am turning this thread into?!
As great as your ideas sound, you are putting out a VERY blanket statement about genders and relationships. I hate to say it this way, but maybe if you get a little older, and go in a few more relationships yourself, you might not see things quite as literal as you do. What works for one couple, doesn't work for another couple. People are different. Couples are different. Relationships are different. Some relationships do very well where the two people, act as one. Others require them to be very seperate in everything to work out. Some women like to be dominated by men in everyway. Some men like to dominate women. The same goes in the other direction. I know my girlfriend tends to like me being the more dominant personality on most issues. She wants me to make more of the decisions about what we do, among other things...

Will that be true of all men and women? No. As far as relationships are concerned though, they are all completely different in how they function and flourish.

Personally, I think Ayano needs to go through some pain and hardships, and some more growing up, before she can understand Kazuma. He's on a completely different level from her emotionally, intellectually, etc. Until then, I only see him trying to help her, and not really opening up to her as of yet.
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Old 2007-05-26, 16:03   Link #1053
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I mostly use Levin philsophy regarding the relaationship here..So i guess you are saying that 70 year old man doesnt have much experience, right?

And you completely missed the point here, The equality is determined be letting the other be oneself, dont step too close. If the other feels that her/his self is comfartable with you being more active - thats great, yet you always have to keep the distance of the self, if you dont - then that is the domination. The context in which you used word domination is more like activity (which one is more active) as it doenst have negative aspect, while the word domination should be used in more negative sense, which is, destroying others self.
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Old 2007-05-26, 16:19   Link #1054
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I think we've really hit a level that was getting hard to follow. It might not be a bad idea to slowly bring back things to the series. While massive discussions on the equality of relationships is interesting....

I'm not sure if Ayano can get through major hardships. The people that matter most to her right now are Ren, her father, Kazuma, and her friends. I really don't want to see anything really bad happen to them. But I do think she can grow by getting more information. Like in ep3 she was just too removed from what was going on to understand the Fuuga clan and why they were unhappy. Probably she doesn't know that much about him.

Though it'd be hard for Kazuma to talk about those things so I wonder how things will go. She has done some growing from the start and is a more likable character. I've no doubt that as the show continues she'll keep getting more emotionally mature. Dealing with the pain of thinking Kazuma more interested in other girls is helping her grow so I feel she'll be fine.
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Old 2007-05-26, 16:38   Link #1055
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Was hoping this series would have better fights, but alas after this episode, I officially gave up. Going to need to watch other series to get that part of my fix(Flame of Recca was real good in that department).
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Old 2007-05-26, 17:54   Link #1056
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I dunno how much some old dude's essays apply to relationships in real life, but you guys are taking it too seriously

Flame of Recca? No comment -_-;

Try Gurren Lagann if you need those action-packed fights. Or maybe Kaibutstu Oujo, which is even cheaper than KnS but does feature a lot of pointless action scenes ^_^

Come to think of it, if you liked Recca, you might like Shining Tears X Wind (the cheapest of them all) - I find both to be equally worthless (well, no, Recca, while bad, is probably not nearly as bad as Tears ), but both do feature combat skills, the latter mostly with swords of various abilities.
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Old 2007-05-26, 18:06   Link #1057
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Originally Posted by lightbringer View Post
Or maybe Kaibutstu Oujo, which is even cheaper than KnS but does feature a lot of pointless action scenes ^_^

Come to think of it, if you liked Recca, you might like Shining Tears X Wind (the cheapest of them all) - I find both to be equally worthless (well, no, Recca, while bad, is probably not nearly as bad as Tears ), but both do feature combat skills, the latter mostly with swords of various abilities.
plz tell me that you are joking

as for action...gogo get your claymore fix! (ive already rewatched the first few eps at least 3 times O.o)

and yea relationships aside you guys are taking it to a whole new level...better step back before some flame engulfs the thread or even put others off from comming taking everything into cryofreeze O.o

could really do with some novel materials that the anime hasnt covered or has skipped
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Old 2007-05-26, 18:07   Link #1058
Hyouzan
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Was hoping this series would have better fights, but alas after this episode, I officially gave up. Going to need to watch other series to get that part of my fix(Flame of Recca was real good in that department).
*pats justinstrife on the shoulder*

welcome to the club
Spoiler for gurren lagann:

actually the fight scene in flame of recca is quite good iirc (it's been years since i saw the anime )
and no, shining tears x wind deserves it's own category (not a compliment )

whoaaa....i slept for 6 hours and i find more essay material for "relationships"
not that it's not good (you all has very good points) but it's really starting to confuse me .....

keep it on topic, guys ?
(considering this very post off-topicness maybe i'm asking too much )
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Old 2007-05-26, 18:08   Link #1059
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lightbringer View Post
I dunno how much some old dude's essays apply to relationships in real life, but you guys are taking it too seriously

Flame of Recca? No comment -_-;

Try Gurren Lagann if you need those action-packed fights. Or maybe Kaibutstu Oujo, which is even cheaper than KnS but does feature a lot of pointless action scenes ^_^

Come to think of it, if you liked Recca, you might like Shining Tears X Wind (the cheapest of them all) - I find both to be equally worthless (well, no, Recca, while bad, is probably not nearly as bad as Tears ), but both do feature combat skills, the latter mostly with swords of various abilities.
Sorry but, Flame of Recca >>>>>>>>> Shining Tears X Wind. By a landslide. And not just in fight scenes either(which is the whole reason I brought up Flame of Recca, but you completely missed by a mile tsk tsk tsk).

Problem with Gurren Lagann is what happens to
Spoiler:
. That part is going to ruin the rest of the anime for me.

And I wouldn't take to heart, too much of what some 70 year old guy says in an essay about relationships. It's far far far too complicated a subject, for any essay to hope to comprehend.
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Old 2007-05-26, 18:28   Link #1060
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Not much hope for understanding that stuff. Just goes to show things can spiral out of control when people get serious about discussing a subject.

Don't know much about Gurren Lagann. Might've been wrong of me but after seeing some of it on blogs it just didn't seem like the kind of show I'd be interested in. Just something about that one kept me away.

Spoiler for Ep8 Preview:
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