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Old 2007-05-10, 08:11   Link #161
LoweGear
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Hmmm... I'd better check-up on the timeline on that chapter...
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Old 2007-05-10, 08:30   Link #162
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
This is incorrect. She was only exhausted AFTER sealing a Jewel Seed. During the days when she does not find any Jewel Seeds (or is not actively finding one), we see that she goes on with her daily life (such as visiting friends, or watching a soccer match).

She is hardly not doing anything else. There is no solid evidence to oppose that she and Yuuno spent time to practise her magic.

Cheers.
Ahh, but if she was only exhausted after sealing a jewel seed (which uses magic) then why wasn't she exhausted when she goes on with her daily life? After all, if she was training during that time, she should have been exhausted during her private life as well, which as you pointed out, she isn't.
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Old 2007-05-10, 08:32   Link #163
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skane View Post
This is incorrect. She was only exhausted AFTER sealing a Jewel Seed. During the days when she does not find any Jewel Seeds (or is not actively finding one), we see that she goes on with her daily life (such as visiting friends, or watching a soccer match).

She is hardly not doing anything else. There is no solid evidence to oppose that she and Yuuno spent time to practise her magic.

Cheers.
In fact there are evidence support Nanoha is practising her magic with the ferret. Since I belive the sound track ep 2.5 or 6.5 for season one I think does say something on the lines of Nanoha's insane training scheme.

I do belive that the inital exhaustion is due to her not customed to the energy drain by RH, after she is adpted to it she is fine. I belive this was implied when they only showed Nanoha exhausted after a sealing for the first few Eps
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Old 2007-05-10, 08:34   Link #164
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Arrow

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Ahh, but if she was only exhausted after sealing a jewel seed (which uses magic) then why wasn't she exhausted when she goes on with her daily life? After all, if she was training during that time, she should have been exhausted during her private life as well, which as you pointed out, she isn't.
Here we need to reference the A's Manga where they talked about her training. Nanoha felt uncomfortable from training with RH at first, but she never felt exhausted from it.

By the timeline in A's, she was used to it.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-05-10, 08:39   Link #165
Keroko
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Okay, I think I've been stomped on the training part of the argument.

But speaking of the soundtracks, is there any evidence of Nanoha practicing Starlight Breaker?
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Old 2007-05-10, 08:50   Link #166
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Okay, I think I've been stomped on the training part of the argument.

But speaking of the soundtracks, is there any evidence of Nanoha practicing Starlight Breaker?
SLB no, Divine Shooter yes.

It is implied in the novel that Nanoha at least planned SLB up with alot of thought since one of the requirments for SLB is magical particles distributed in a way that is easy for recollection.
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Old 2007-05-10, 10:30   Link #167
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Going into artificial life and the replicate theme in MGLN:

In S1 there was Fate as an augmented clone and introduced the concept of intelligent devices. Arf can also be considered an artificial lifeform because of her status as a familiar.

S2 pushed it a little further with the Wolkenritter. The guardians show the full range of human emotion, independent thought through their rebellion and packed into a physical body. Sentient entities of tremendous power, their individual personalities are likely flawless copies of the Tome of the Nightsky's original guardians. Ageless, immortal and virtually indestructable due to their link to the book- they would rank amongst the most powerful humanoid replicates ever created. On a lighter note, we can safely call Rein II Carbon Copy [C.C. ]

S3 has thus far been showcasing a growing war between man and machine. Hints have so far led back to the artificial life experiments that created Fate. What is Fate exactly? Is she Human or a Perfect machine? One that is able to physically mature and have emotions, yet fights with superhuman speed, focus and precision.

Thoughts here because the lack of information means the girl can be either.

[my money is on another breed of human, unless they show the growing up bit to be part of the program ]
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Old 2007-05-10, 18:15   Link #168
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Well, in S2 Lindy did tell Fate that she was fully biologically human, and the only difference was that she had been born a different way, so I'd think that Fate is just a genetically modified test tube baby rather than any sort of a organic robot or anything more exotic....

Although with this "Project F" thing in the latest episode, I have a feeling that there will be a little more to it than that, but anything beyond this is just going to be speculation as nothing has been revealed as of yet.
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Old 2007-05-11, 10:31   Link #169
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Haa~

Going upon my magic-circle=computer theory, I'm going to expand on it:
First and foremost, I didn't mean it literally but metaphorically.

Thinking the circle itself as a computer chip rather than a computer in its entirely, we could think the circles that are a part of the magic circle to be individual processing units. The band that connects the smaller circles together could be considered the connecters between the processors. The processing units work together to convert magical energy into actual magic.

This would mean that there would be many different possible types of magic circles. The common Mid-Childa and Belka styles of magic circles would probably be ones that have proven efficiency and power, not to mention many of the spells are probably based on these standards.

The Mid-Childa circle has a central circle in the middle, with an outside circle containing four more circles, each containing a symbol. The circle in the middle is a small "band" surrounded by a larger band on the outside. In addition to transfering magical energy around, these could also double as processors. The smaller one with its tighter band creates the "core" of the spell, while the larger one adds to the spell with the other four processors. This can create spells with a wide variety of effects, but would be generally slower to start up.

In contrast, the Belka has only four circles period, of roughly equal size all connected together. The each have a dedicated band connecting to each other circle, which can equate to faster transfer of magical energy and more coherency. Again, there's one main circle in the middle and this time three supports. This probably can translate into faster processing of power, but at the expense of more added effects to the spell.

…though I just made all this up, how's it for a theory?
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Old 2007-05-11, 10:43   Link #170
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As a theory, very well. I had the same idea about the magic arrays, as circuits using magic as energy conduits, and that their shape determined the magic functions they can perform. Although yours is the first time anyone has tried to explain the actual geometry as it applied to the spells themselves.
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Old 2007-06-01, 21:32   Link #171
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Cut and paste

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
EDIT: What you said culd be true I realized, but that gives a hint that mages are weaker to these magical attacks for the side effects run straight through known defences, lowering the ability to maintain their defence, causing it to come down and therefore continued attack would've torn the mage to pieces. Teana was smashed twice with the same attack, and all she got was KO'd. Fate was hit with a continuous attack, only her barrier jacket, a creation of magic, sustained damage.
And that's why there's a mixed of magic and physical damage...

Like for example, Halo.

Even a beginner could tell you that the Elite's shield goes down faster when you're using plasma weapons. But people still uses conventional weapons because it does more damage to their unprotected bodies.

Same case here. Magic does more damage to magic base properties, while physical does more damage to physical base properties.
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Old 2007-06-01, 21:36   Link #172
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Continuing from Episode 09 discussion
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Well, that thing was sort of heading towards her face ...
Barrier jacket also uses barriers and fields for defense. In other words, there's more than you can see.
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Old 2007-06-01, 21:45   Link #173
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Originally Posted by Meophist View Post
Continuing from Episode 09 discussionBarrier jacket also uses barriers and fields for defense. In other words, there's more than you can see.
Still, it doesn't mean it would be painless. The shock could still knock her off her feet and out cold.

Falling from that height could also be lethal... And even if Mach Caliber could save her by creating another wing road, the threat of the Drones was still at large.

Either way, I can't imagine it to be a pleasant experience
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Old 2007-06-01, 21:48   Link #174
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Still, it doesn't mean it would be painless. The shock could still knock her off her feet and out cold.

Falling from that height could also be lethal... And even if Mach Caliber could save her by creating another wing road, the threat of the Drones was still at large.

Either way, I can't imagine it to be a pleasant experience
Well, I'm not saying that she's going to get out of it free of harm. I'm just saying that it doesn't automatically mean she'll die from it. My original point was "It depends on the strength of Subaru's Barrier Jacket"(paraphrasing).
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Old 2007-06-02, 00:35   Link #175
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Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Perhaps, but technically she shouldn't be able to fly either. How far are we willing to mix realism with a show about magic?
But the flying bit isn't explained, in other words we know she can fly because that's just the way it is. But with those balls the explanation is that she hits them all with the hammer and the fly away. Which is a impossible move.

Quote:
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@MG vs PY Dam debate: The same energy attack can be used to deal either magical or physical damage. Crossfire was used in the former manner against Teana, in that instead of dealing HP damage, it burned her MP instead, causing her to 'appear tired and exhausted', especially if you equate a person's mana pool to his/her energy/stamina level. I think this is possible as there's no physical component to the attack, so no hard object to deal physical base damage; and so by changing the form of energy the spell is charged with (lets say instead of intense thermal energy, raw "anti-mana" is used) the damage dealt changes.
There was talk about uniqueness, perhaps the casters are unique, in the form of damage ration (physical and magical and elemental) they are able to deal.

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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Known defence and protection systems work against both attacks, and damage only occurs when all have been overwhelmed.
Most likely true for pure magic damage.
But certainly not for elemental or physical damage.

Take Fate's injury to the leg in A's when fighting Signum in planet X.
Her barrier jacket seemed ok.
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Old 2007-06-02, 01:52   Link #176
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But the flying bit isn't explained, in other words we know she can fly because that's just the way it is. But with those balls the explanation is that she hits them all with the hammer and the fly away. Which is a impossible move.
Action, reaction.

You cannot use physic to explain the balls, which are by right magic-base in property. (As in they're created by magic)

Hitting the ball with her hammer is like a program that triggers the attack.

It's the 'starting' move.


Quote:
Most likely true for pure magic damage.
But certainly not for elemental or physical damage.

Take Fate's injury to the leg in A's when fighting Signum in planet X.
Her barrier jacket seemed ok.
My personal take on this is that even though the barrier jacket by right covers the entire body of the caster, the part where you can see the clothes are the ones where the protection are more heavily concentrated.
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Old 2007-06-02, 02:40   Link #177
Keroko
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But the flying bit isn't explained, in other words we know she can fly because that's just the way it is. But with those balls the explanation is that she hits them all with the hammer and the fly away. Which is a impossible move.
And I suppose suddenly materializing red bunny-hated suit at will, wielding a hammer that takes on impossible shapes withing seconds etc. etc. is normal?

I find hitting a ball with a hammer to be far more believable then that.

@Magic damage versus Physical damage.

I'm still saying this whole 'attacking the soul, not the body' stuff is rubish. We know magic deals damage on a physical damage (if it hurts, the damage is physical. The method, however, is magical).

Back to punch references: I can punch someone so hard, that I break the bones in his body. I can also punch someone so softly that he merely falls down, or falls unconcious without bleeding. Why the hell would I regulate my punches to attack his soul, needlesly complicating everything, if I can merley hit him hard enough to fall unconcious?

The beam of energy makes a physical impact, which delivers a physical blow. The barrier jacket makes sure that said physical blow does not tear through the body. Of course, the blow can tear through and destroy the body as well, as long as the caster puts in enough energy.
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Old 2007-06-02, 03:01   Link #178
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post

@Magic damage versus Physical damage.

I'm still saying this whole 'attacking the soul, not the body' stuff is rubish. We know magic deals damage on a physical damage (if it hurts, the damage is physical. The method, however, is magical).
Keroko, you must really learn to not take my examples too seriously

A spell, created by magic, can damage an object Physically, magically, or even both properties.

It's all depends on what the user wants.

Quote:
Back to punch references: I can punch someone so hard, that I break the bones in his body. I can also punch someone so softly that he merely falls down, or falls unconcious without bleeding. Why the hell would I regulate my punches to attack his soul, needlesly complicating everything, if I can merley hit him hard enough to fall unconcious?
Assuming you can punch someone's soul, it's would be alot easier to go full power and attack the person's 'soul' because you won't have to worry about injuring the opponents physically.

Sure you can just use pure physical damage, but you could also risk killing that person if your not careful.

Your punch would knock someone out cold, but it could also give him brain damage.

Quote:
The beam of energy makes a physical impact, which delivers a physical blow. The barrier jacket makes sure that said physical blow does not tear through the body. Of course, the blow can tear through and destroy the body as well, as long as the caster puts in enough energy.
It depends on the mission.

Not everything is about killing the enemy.
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Old 2007-06-02, 03:12   Link #179
Keroko
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Keroko, you must really learn to not take my examples too seriously
*shrug* I was just using the soul because it's the first I remembered being used.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
A spell, created by magic, can damage an object Physically, magically, or even both properties.

It's all depends on what the user wants.
But what is 'magical' damage, then? Like I said, I don't like the 'attacking ones soul' idea.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Assuming you can punch someone's soul, it's would be alot easier to go full power and attack the person's 'soul' because you won't have to worry about injuring the opponents physically.

Sure you can just use pure physical damage, but you could also risk killing that person if your not careful.

Your punch would knock someone out cold, but it could also give him brain damage.
But attacking someone's soul doesn't hurt, as it isn't physical damage. Where then, is the lesson?

Oh, another example: Nanoha fighting Vita the first time. Nanoha was confused as to why Vita was attacking her, and retaliated. Seeing Nanoha's personallity, she would not go for a deathblow without knowing why Vita attacked her. Now, according to the 'attacking the soul' theory, this would be the perfect time to attack the soul.

But wait! What happens? Vita's hat is torn to shreds. That means this attack delivered physical damage through magical means, as the hat should have remained untouched.
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Old 2007-06-02, 03:15   Link #180
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
My personal take on this is that even though the barrier jacket by right covers the entire body of the caster, the part where you can see the clothes are the ones where the protection are more heavily concentrated.
Reminds me how I was laughing hard almost every time I saw some "armored" female character in anime.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
I'm still saying this whole 'attacking the soul, not the body' stuff is rubish. We know magic deals damage on a physical damage (if it hurts, the damage is physical. The method, however, is magical).

Back to punch references: I can punch someone so hard, that I break the bones in his body. I can also punch someone so softly that he merely falls down, or falls unconcious without bleeding. Why the hell would I regulate my punches to attack his soul, needlesly complicating everything, if I can merley hit him hard enough to fall unconcious?

The beam of energy makes a physical impact, which delivers a physical blow. The barrier jacket makes sure that said physical blow does not tear through the body. Of course, the blow can tear through and destroy the body as well, as long as the caster puts in enough energy.
You have a point, yet there're situations when feeling that something hurts doesn't necessarily mean that it actually does (I remember hearing something how people were made to believe their wrists were slit when they actually weren't, but people died after some time because their brain thought they lost most of their blood).

Attacking someone's soul comes handy when you want him unconscious but with the body left all clean and shiny

Anyway I myself find the conception "99.99% of the damage dealt by that huge pink beam which caused an explosion a 10-megaton warhead could only dream of and a 30-m tsunami was purely magical so everyone is barely scratched but unconscious" is totally lame. Just posting arguments for fun
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