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Old 2004-02-12, 12:36   Link #21
Fronzel
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Angel Sanctuary Spoiler, Again:

Spoiler:


I do hope someone can read this. Angel Sanctuary is an atypical case.
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Old 2004-02-12, 13:24   Link #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fronzel
Spoiler:
I have never seen Angel Sanctuary myself, which is why I can't really discuss it (perhaps others?). However, from what you say, it sounds as though it was definitely an atypicial case... In such a case, I could understand why some people would be taken aback by it. I'm not sure how I'd feel.
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Old 2004-02-12, 13:28   Link #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuven
trace back any family line far enough and i bet you'll find some first cousin (or even SIBLING) mothers and fathers
look at Oedipus for instance
That's a fictional play

I, too, don't see how this is so creepy.
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Old 2004-02-12, 13:46   Link #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyuven
trace back any family line far enough and i bet you'll find some first cousin (or even SIBLING) mothers and fathers
look at Oedipus for instance

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashibaka
That's a fictional play
And well, Oedipus isn't really a "good example" for incestuous relatiohships since in the play it isn't condoned in any, way shape or form. His mother kills herself, Oedipus blinds himself with brooches and is cast out to wander blindly through the countryside. The incest he has basically ruins his life and then the life of his daughter Antigone in the next play due to the power vacuum Oedipus creates when he leaves.

edit: added more thoughts.
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Old 2004-02-12, 13:49   Link #25
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I wonder why this thread reminds me so much of a certain thread in the long retired OnegaiTwins series discussion.....
Nothing much has changed since then, it seems...but well, who are we to judge matters of love,right?
Still, most of you folks should be aware that there are much more horrific things out there then incest, by far. To name some of them: rape,murder,abuse of children, bestiality...ok, i guess you get the point. Still it's interesting to see that there are less threads to such topics but a lot about incest, not just in the animesuki forum.
People have strange ways to express their moral preferences.
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Old 2004-02-12, 13:52   Link #26
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Slade xTekno? Hum, interesting name.

Incest in anime huh... well I read angel santuary and watched onegai twins(unfortunately). I didn't really care much about the whole deal, it's not something I myself would participate in but there are worse things you can do... all I can think of is that in Onegai Twins they said the line "we could be strangers, we could be related" more times than I would care to count... and the fan service definitely didn't make the anime any better... it was a crappy romance anime imo not because of its bit "odd" theme, but because it was just boring and not very enjoyable to me.
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Old 2004-02-12, 14:05   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seiryuu
The show examines a struggle with incest, but incest itself doesnt occur. So please stop saying that this show is about that. or at least find one of the threads that already exist on the subject.
Uh, in my book if it examines a struggle with incest, it's pretty much about incest... Incest itself (at least as it's traditionally viewed, I'm not looking to get into a semantic argument here) does NOT imply sexual interaction. To say a relationship is incestuous merely means it includes a man and a women of the same biological unit who are romantically involved. You can't seriously be telling me that show wasn't about romantic relationships....

A first cousin marriage wouldn't seem that bad to me, but if it's within the nuclear family, that's a different story. All I'm saying is that the show was difficult to watch because of how I would approach the situation. Perhaps you have no sibling you could view in this light, but I'm repulsed by the thought of that level of intimacy with my sister, environmental conditioning or no. I'm not doing this to offend other cultures, in fact the post accomplished what it was intended to do thanks to the information I've gained on marriage practice norms around the world, and links to even more info on the topic.

Oh, and I think your comment about searching the archives is misplaced. The whole point is to provide a bank of information on which a member can draw if they should have a somewhat objective question. Personally if I want to generate fresh ideas on a topic as subjective as incest (as it relates to anime), it's my right as a forum member to post a new thread. If I want to know how many episodes there are in the first Robotech series, I'll search.
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Old 2004-02-12, 14:13   Link #28
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimplyEd
I wonder why this thread reminds me so much of a certain thread in the long retired OnegaiTwins series discussion.....
Nothing much has changed since then, it seems...but well, who are we to judge matters of love,right?
Still, most of you folks should be aware that there are much more horrific things out there then incest, by far. To name some of them: rape,murder,abuse of children, bestiality...ok, i guess you get the point. Still it's interesting to see that there are less threads to such topics but a lot about incest, not just in the animesuki forum.
People have strange ways to express their moral preferences.

Yes, murder, rape, abuse are all worse than incest, because they deal with destructive emotions. Incest is at least (as long as it's consensual) loving. What point would it serve to post a thread asking if people thought murder or rape was ok? As you'll note in this thread, opinion can shift either way on incest, which to me makes it worthy of discussion.

People (and I'm referring to no one in particular), if you don't like my thread, don't post here. You're like the people in my college listserve who send emails to tell others to stop sending stupid emails...
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Old 2004-02-12, 14:43   Link #29
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Neon01
All I'm saying is that the show was difficult to watch because of how I would approach the situation. Perhaps you have no sibling you could view in this light, but I'm repulsed by the thought of that level of intimacy with my sister, environmental conditioning or no.
Hmm, interesting. I have two younger sisters, and also could never think about them in this way. But, at the same time, the relationships of the main characters in Onegai Twins didn't bother me at all. You also have a sister, and it bothered you a lot. I wonder why this difference? That's what I'm most curious about.

You are right that the series deals with the topic of incest, but Seiryuu is also right that nothing technically incestual actually occurs. Just like any fiction that deals with a potentially controversial topic, it is meant to solicit reflection and discussion - it asks us to examine whether, why, and what makes something "right" or "wrong". That is what the Onegai series is all about, first with Teacher, and then with Twins. In both series, I personally found nothing particularly disturbing about any of the main relationships, but I know a lot of other people did (that was the whole point of the show - finding love in controverisal places - if no one found it controversial, then, well, the whole point of the show would be difference.).

Incidentally, the one relationship I *did* find a bit disturbing in Onegai Twins was the guy who was obssessed with his sister Haruko. I think it was mostly his obssession that made it so disturbing, but I did find the potential incest there disturbing also. That may be food for thought, I guess. Perhaps it's because of the "predatory" aspect of the one-sided desire, as Yebyosh talked about earlier in this thread. By the end of the series, though, you knew that nothing was ever going to happen there; it was just being played up for effect. (It was pretty funny, actually; when she suggested they actually have a relationship, all of a sudden he was not interested at all because it was wrong. Why didn't he realize that *before*, lol.)

By the way, I know that some of you have a "dj-vu" feeling on this topic, but that it is still provoking thought and discussion is a good thing, at least in my opinion. I have to agree with Neon01 in a way - it's not as if you are being forced to post if you're not interested in furthering the discussion... That being said, most of the posts so far have furthered the discussion, so it's all good!
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Old 2004-02-12, 15:01   Link #30
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The whole time I was watching DA Capo I just wanted Nemu and Junnichi to get together even though they where brother and sister because she was adopted, they loved each other and it looked better then Junnichi and Sakura. But the cultural view prevented that so I think even other cultures know where to drawn the line. I haven't seen Onegai Twins but I don't have a problem with what was described. What does disturb me is the "predatory" aspect that some seem to forget about.
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Old 2004-02-12, 15:23   Link #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corp20
The whole time I was watching DA Capo I just wanted Nemu and Junnichi to get together even though they where brother and sister because she was adopted, they loved each other and it looked better then Junnichi and Sakura. But the cultural view prevented that so I think even other cultures know where to drawn the line.
Spoiler:
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Old 2004-02-12, 16:52   Link #32
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Well like everyone said, cousins together isn't considered incest in Japan... I don't really think it's creepy because a lot of people I used to know had crushes on their cousins actually.. It's very common. Some people I used to know have dated their cousin in secret. So it's not really something that I find surprising...

About the whole "brother/sister" thing.. ^^;; I don't know about life in Japan, but I really doubt it's okay for brothers and sisters to date. Actually, I'm sure it's not. I don't think that's the reason that this theme is often in anime. In my opinion, it's because a lot of guys would like to have a girlfriend that they could treat at the same time as a little sister. And it's the same thing for a lot of girls.. A lot of girls would like to have a boyfriend that they can treat as a big brother. I know because I've often felt like this. ^^;; I think it has nothing to do with wanting to "be" with your siblings at all X_X ... It's more of an emotional thing.. A type of relationship.

So I think this is why in a lot of anime series, there's love between a brother and his adopted sister or the opposite. ..

And I think the fact that in Onegai Twins, a guy is obsessed with his sister is just there to make fun of that reoccurent theme in anime.. If you look at Green Green, they make fun of that theme also.. With the guy who wants the girl to call him "onii-sama"
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Old 2004-02-12, 18:55   Link #33
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Hmm, interesting. I have two younger sisters, and also could never think about them in this way. But, at the same time, the relationships of the main characters in Onegai Twins didn't bother me at all. You also have a sister, and it bothered you a lot. I wonder why this difference? That's what I'm most curious about.
Hmm...this is piquing my interest here. So, you're not bothered by brother/sister incest, but can never think of having a relationship with your sisters that way. Why? I know that just because you can "tolerate" sibling incest, doesn't mean you have to go commit it. But if you're not bothered by sibling incest, then you shouldn't you keep an open mind of having a relationship with your sister? What's preventing you from thinking about them that way?

Quote:
I wonder why this difference? That's what I'm most curious about.
I have to agree on kj1980; because it depends on how we're raised. Our views and bias are shaped by our experience.

And it isn't just about sibling or cousin incest. What about mother/son incest? What about father/daughter incest? Do you (people) tolerate those as well? Why? Or Why not?

For those people who can tolerate sibling or cousin incest, but not parent/child incest. Answer this question: What makes sibling/cousin incest tolerable and parent/child incest wrong?

Note:I'm using "tolerate" instead of "acceptance", because in my definition they're different. For example: I can "tolerate" homosexuality, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. The next step up from "tolerate" would be "acceptance". Do you "tolerate" or "accept" incest?

Also, who's got statistics on incest? If you find a reliable source, please post it up. I'm quite interested in incest rates.

Oh by the way, we are talking about CONSENSUAL incest right? Because I'm ASSUMING (a bad thing to do) that FORCED incest is wrong.
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Old 2004-02-12, 20:12   Link #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muir Woods
And it isn't just about sibling or cousin incest. What about mother/son incest? What about father/daughter incest? Do you (people) tolerate those as well? Why? Or Why not?

For those people who can tolerate sibling or cousin incest, but not parent/child incest. Answer this question: What makes sibling/cousin incest tolerable and parent/child incest wrong?

Note:I'm using "tolerate" instead of "acceptance", because in my definition they're different. For example: I can "tolerate" homosexuality, but that doesn't mean I have to like it. The next step up from "tolerate" would be "acceptance". Do you "tolerate" or "accept" incest?

Also, who's got statistics on incest? If you find a reliable source, please post it up. I'm quite interested in incest rates.

Oh by the way, we are talking about CONSENSUAL incest right? Because I'm ASSUMING (a bad thing to do) that FORCED incest is wrong.
First off, I just thought the Japanese loved to poke fun at taboos and censors .

Now, to reply to the quote:
I almost completely tolerate, if not embrace the ideals of incest in any form. I said almost, because of the acursed genetics crap from it. so, I'd have to say 100% toleration with first cousins, mabye about 90% with anything else.

Edit: people are love, and I honestly don't care of their blood relations. I simply hate the part about the children suffering due to such(brother/sister) >.< .
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Old 2004-02-12, 21:20   Link #35
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Since I've already posted in this thread [ Scroll up if you want to read it :P ]
I won't say my opinion about this again.. But I have to add something..

I think that what we see in anime series like Da Capo or Onegai Twins is MUCH MUCH MUCH DIFFERENT than father/daughter incest or mother/son incest or brother/sister incest in a "normal" family!!!

In Onegai Twins, they have never met each other before, and they aren't even sure if they really are brother and sister. It's much different, and I believe this could happen to anyone. In the case of an adopted sister, it's also much different to me because they are not blood related.. In an anime, you will never see blood related brothers and sisters hook up together.. :P

I think that Oedipus and all that parent/child incest have absolutely nothing to do with this.. <_< In anime, you often find an idealized relationship between a younger girl and an older guy who is sort of like her "older brother".. But I've never, ever seen a situation in anime between a girl and her father by example. x.x; Or a son and his mother..

Besides, in Oedipus.. I believe that he was in love with his mother but there was never really a relationship.. But maybe to you guys it doesn't make a difference. I'm not there to say if it's wrong or not ^^;;..
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Old 2004-02-12, 21:28   Link #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Muir Woods
Hmm...this is piquing my interest here. So, you're not bothered by brother/sister incest, but can never think of having a relationship with your sisters that way. Why? I know that just because you can "tolerate" sibling incest, doesn't mean you have to go commit it. But if you're not bothered by sibling incest, then you shouldn't you keep an open mind of having a relationship with your sister? What's preventing you from thinking about them that way?
What I mean is that it never bothered me in the anime shows in question (Onegai Twins and Da Capo are the two I'm referring to in particular). Perhaps this is because it is fictional. Perhaps it is because they never crossed any line that triggered any sort of moral outrage in me. Perhaps it is because I can't expect them to share my moral values at all. This is what I'm trying to figure out because, actually, I do have personal moral convictions on the subject.

If I implied that incest didn't bother me at all personally, than that's not true. Actually, I feel that it would be wrong, morally, for me to do such a thing because of my religous convictions. (That alone would keep me from having an "open mind" about having a realtionship with either of my sisters.) Further, it is against the law, and the reason for it being against the law is very clear. So, in terms of my personal beliefs and convictions, incest would be out of the question for me. I cannot expect my personal beliefs to be shared by everyone, and thus try not to project my beliefs onto others. That being said, the law is society's imposing of "common" beliefs and values on others, so that alone should be a serious deterrent in our society. (Since we live in a democracy, if it isn't the "will of the people", the people can will it changed.)

More to the point I think, though, is how would I feel if someone I knew in real life were in an incestuous relationship. This is a much harder question to answer with any degree of certainty. Again, with the clear disclaimer that we are talking about a consentual relationship, with both parties clearly understanding what they are doing, I believe that I could come to terms with it, despite the awkwardness. My awkwardness would subside especially if the two involved were open and honest, and not feeling awkward about it themselves. (If they feel there's something wrong or to hide about the relationship, that wouldn't increase my comfort level.) That being said, I would tend to believe that *my* comfort level shouldn't matter, as my moral judgement should never be placed on people who do not claim to share my beliefs.

Anyways, all this to say that, in these anime shows, I never found their presentation of the subject of incest at all offensive or awkward, even though I may feel differently in real life, and I couldn't consider it myself for moral reasons. Perhaps this is a double-standard (or triple-standard); that is what I am trying to figure out. In short, I have basically came to the same conclusion as Kurara's post above (that appeared as I was writing this message!).
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Old 2004-02-12, 22:28   Link #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
(Since we live in a democracy, if it isn't the "will of the people", the people can will it changed.)
Where the hell do you live?!
*assumes USA*
*corrects quote*
Quote:
Originally Posted by flame guy, corrected.
(Since we live in a republic, if it isn't the "will of the people"(meaning Bush, congress, and special interest groups), the 'people' can will it changed.)
Now, your beliefs are your beliefs, I can deal with that. But, when say you say its against the law for a clear reason, what is that reason? Unlike most I don't read every little law .

Edit: If it isn't obvious enough, of course I don't like the way the USA is run, but oh well, at least I'm not in Russia.
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Old 2004-02-12, 22:30   Link #38
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^^ Actually, I live in Canada, lol! It's probably not much better, though!

Edit, to answer your question: Incest is one of those laws that attempts to look out for society's greater good. One could argue that society has no reason to make such laws, but that is another debate. Anyways, it has been scientifically proven that children born as the result of sexual relations between close biological relatives have very high instances of birth defects. It is (arguably) in society's best interest (self-interest) to preserve the strength of its genepool, hence the illegality of incest.

Note: I've never read the law on the subject either, but this is my understanding - at least it's a very solid argument that could be made in favour of the law.
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Old 2004-02-12, 23:15   Link #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Incest is one of those laws that attempts to look out for society's greater good.
I think society is a big boy and can take care of itself.
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Old 2004-02-12, 23:23   Link #40
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Yeah, that law is mainly for a biological reason.. Because in the Middle Ages and the Renaissance period.. And even after that, it was pretty common to see girls marry their cousins or even their uncle.. I think that if someone wants to marry their cousin, it's their choice...

When it comes to a parent or a brother/sister... I feel weird about it. ^^;; And it's not because I've been raised that way. Brother/sister.. Okay. To me that's very weird, and I can't understand it at all... but if that's what they really want, what should I say.

What honestly bothers me is incest... Between a parent and their daugher or son. If it's an adoptive or step parent..... Maybe x.x;; ... We've seen Woody Allen marry his adoptive daughter. I know that it's not because they do it that it's good, but I think it's a good example of.. how different it is if the two people are blood related or not.

In some cultures, it's okay for fathers to sleep with their daughters... Maybe it's that way in other cultures.. But to me that seems very wrong. And I don't think this is because of how I was raised, like I said at the begining of my post. .. Because in a family, there's the mother and the father.. The daughter should be the daughter and have her place as a daughter... Same for the son.. And to me it's pretty bad for an adult to tell their child to do that with them -_- ... But what can I say..
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