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Old 2007-06-02, 07:33   Link #221
felix
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
"Magical Property".
Didn't you and Kero-chan agree that all spells are magical in nature~
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Well, that's easy

Magical attacks affect Barrier Jackets because they're magic-base to begin with, hence their jackets are in a mess.

And a physical attack can also be "non-lethal", doesn't mean it's purely magic base.

And I've got official info as back up
Official tangible info~ or just official?
Thisguy wasn't very explicit with the info.. no quoting or physical proof.
Your theory-damage ain't hurting right now~

As it stands I could say barrier jackets when destroyed cause physical damage and call forth X official-what-not as backing. Your claims are similar but I don't see 100% compatibility~ yet. Still just at theory level.

Also, about the jacket.
Here's Teana after Nanoha's first volley. (it's the same after the second as well)
Spoiler for Pic:
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Old 2007-06-02, 07:46   Link #222
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Didn't you and Kero-chan agree that all spells are magical in nature~
They are.

But certain, if not most, spell have a physical element to it. When I said "Magical Property", I was refering to the parts of the spell that aren't physical.

Quote:
Official tangible info~ or just official?
Thisguy wasn't very explicit with the info.. no quoting or physical proof.
Your theory-damage ain't hurting right now~
Sigh, must we really take things this far?

He said the information came from the 1st season DVD booklet. Now it's been how many months since then? Wouldn't someone have stood out and claim otherwise if that information is false?

Quote:
As it stands I could say barrier jackets when destroyed cause physical damage and call forth X official-what-not as backing. Your claims are similar but I don't see 100% compatibility~ yet. Still just at theory level.

Also, about the jacket.
Here's Teana after Nanoha's first volley. (it's the same after the second as well)
Spoiler for Pic:
And as I've also said before, Barrier jackets are MOSTLY magical property. The small amount of physical is what keeps it on their bodies and keeps them warm.

Barrier jacket's stability are inconsistence, there isn't really a fixed figure on how much punishment it could take.


EDIT:

@Kha


"Hell, it's about time..."
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Old 2007-06-02, 07:51   Link #223
Kha
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
KHA?!?!

Where the hell are you?! Why am I fending them off on my own?!?!

Hell, it's about time...
*drifts into the thread*

You summoned me, didn't you?

*glances around*

Yare, yare. What happened here? I was getting comfortable with the OC and Fanfic thread. AND fighting the tyrannical actions of ODEX, with our operations base here.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Join the war, fellow countrymen! Boycott ODEX!!!

For the people who have the right to watch anime from the best source of their choice!

For keeping anime alive in S'pore!

For God Empress S******* H*****!!!


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

With that aside...

*flexes pseudoscience muscles*

Let us begin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
The term 'soul' was just an example...

I use it to describe something on the inside of a living being, but not physical.
Inaccurate terms create confusion. That is a problem that was heavily tackled in human anatomy, thus giving me multus trouble remembering everything.

As my lecturer says, "When you tackle a problem, start from First Principles."

So we shall focus on magic within a person.

Using canon terminology, we know that a person's magical energy (henceforward will be referred to by this poster as mana or MP) is manipulated and concentrated in his/her Linker Core. Whether or not his/her soul resides in that part of the mage remains to be seen. It is a fandom idea that the soul is there btw, just to let you know.

But we know that mana doesn't always come from the heart. In fact, it often manifests at the limbs or extremities, or basically where the mage intends to create the spell from. This tells us that there is a system of delivery, a bit like the heart and the arteries and veins that carry our blood around. Assuming that evolutionary parallels exist for such a conduction system (the lymphatic system and the circulatory system are very similar being the base of this assumption), we can say that the Linker Core is the "heart" of the mana conduction system, with invisible, intangible, and very motile mana "circuits" running inside to the outside of the mage, since SB proves that magic can persist outside of the body, and I don't see mages ingesting anything fortified with "mana".

The Mana Circuit idea came from Fate/Stay Night and a few other places.

Now that we know how mana is moved within and outside of a person, let's move on.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
You are assuming ALL of Nanoha's beam attacks are magical damage only

Recall how she trashed Precia's tin cans back in season 1.

And no, I don't think they can just make their magic vanish all of a sudden without external help. It's like in any RPG game, you can't just have your mana gone for no reason.

And in this case, a mage without mana is someone who practically run 100 miles and is now exhausted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Edit: The term magic damage itself is a confusing one, anwyay. Can't you think of a better one, Chaos?
Actually, it was my idea, parallel'd from D&D's Non-lethal damage crossed with the "Mana Burn" spell from the Warcraft universe. Basically, what it means is "degree of exhaustion dealt to the mage by the amount of disruption made to the mana circuit as well as the overall reduction of the mage's mana pool." I admit magical damage was rather vague, so let's tighten it up: Non-lethal magic damage (assumed to be able to burn mana rather than flesh) and lethal magic damage (definitely burns flesh). Being able to switch in between the two to power one's spell is the magical equivalent to pulling one's punches, which also gives rise to Lethal physical damage and Non-lethal physical damage. There is too little to run on in canon to debate what kind of mana goes into non-lethal magical (NLM) damage, but we do know that it exhausts the mage's mana reserves, but leaves no bruises or scars, though it might burn or melt the barrier jacket or knight armor, which is magical.

This selective damage hints at what happens within the mage when hit by a non-lethal magical attack (NLMA), which will be covered now.

It was debated and settled earlier that an AMF does disrupt the mana circuit outside of the Linker Core. But we don't see Erio collapsing from it (The Nanohaverse OC Kha does, but that's because his Linker Core was different) for his mana store is within the dense Linker. Maybe there was a little discomfort as the extra-Core circuits lost power, but with adrenaline pumping, that small disturbance tends to be overlooked. Now let's say we shoot him with 1% of Nanoha's "rubber bullet" variation of Crossfire and we hit him at the spot where Teana was hit, smack at the heart. My expectation is he'll feel somewhat breathless, with some pain. Medically called "Phantom Pain", this pain arises as the body tells him that his magic circuit was under attack. We know that the NLMA attacks magical creations selectively over physical bodies, and so my link is here is that, like how NLMA destroys BJ/KA, it 'destroys' the magical circuit of a Mage.

Hit him with the full attack now. What happens? I expect Erio to feel so much pain that he passes out from it, his magic circuit is in total disarray, but his body remains visibly unharmed.

The "bruises" we see in the manga excerpt are really just dust from the collapsed training room. Contrast Teana after Nanoha's Crossfire attacks, and after the Signum punch (no sir ree, she HAD to prove she wasn't a submissive uke). Now that's a perfect example of the true effects of magical damage versus physical damage.

Seven Arcs should pay me to write their "Technology of Friendship" codex for the Nanohaverse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
A vampire mage, I had that idea for like ever...
Look in the OC thread. You love my latest villian. A kamen loli with a big sword to boot.

@Teana's "hurt" arm:

OK I'm going to reference the earlier debate on BJ presence over immaterial bits. Earlier in this thread, we declared that BJ exist all over the mage as a very dense, next-to-skin, defence of summoned material and protective fielding. Summoned material for the visible bits, dense protective fielding for the "exposed skin" bits. That way Fate was able to survive getting whipped and thrown into concrete with only dust and BJ damage.

That spot on Teana's arm is a burnt field. Now I know something sound's wrong with that, but this is parallel'd from the human body: In areas where it is too dense to be removed, impurities remain there indefinitely, especially if its sterile the body would cover it in fibrous tissue and leave it there. My link here is that the "charred" dust from the burnt off field stuck to the defensive field in that same manner, to be removed when one "rebooted" the BJ, repaired/purified it, or dispelled it into sealed mode. No point risking exposure to excise remaining bit, for it still provides some protection as well.

EDIT: I thought of something that I forgot to cover here while replying to Chaos' later post, but by the time my com loaded the Edit box... I forgot what it was... Now if there's any comments and disputes to my above post or other posts, that should serve to trigger my memory.
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Old 2007-06-02, 08:02   Link #224
Chaos2Frozen
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@Kha
Once again,

"Hell, it's about time..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And people, can we all just forget that I've ever mentioned the word 'soul'? Apparently the world isn't ready for it yet...


"I am NOT a ***dam, I'm only human..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

@Kha

Out of curiosity...

...Why Erio?

Anyway, as you know my weakness, other than drama and angst, is long rants So in any case, can I assume I more or less hit it with the "magical Property" part judging from your speech?

(I'm a big man, I can handle the true...)
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Old 2007-06-02, 08:11   Link #225
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
@Kha
Once again,

"Hell, it's about time..."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And people, can we all just forget that I've ever mentioned the word 'soul'? Apparently the world isn't ready for it yet...


"I am NOT a ***dam, I'm only human..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
As the Sith Lord Darth Chaos, you're beyond-godlike rep precedes you see...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
@Kha

Out of curiosity...

...Why Erio?
He was the most convenient example of a mage sitting in an AMF and was used earlier to explain why BJ's don't disasseble Negima style in AMF. I just extended it to explain what happens to the mana circuit and the Linker Core as background knowledge for the explanation of the effects of magical damage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Anyway, as you know my weakness, other than drama and angst, is long rants So in any case, can I assume I more or less hit it with the "magical Property" part judging from your speech?

(I'm a big man, I can handle the true...)
Could you point me to ur explanation? My eyes hurt from reading all those posts at rapid speed, then typing as fast as I could.
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Old 2007-06-02, 08:17   Link #226
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
As the Sith Lord Darth Chaos, you're beyond-godlike rep precedes you see...
The original quote was from House...

"God doesn't limp..."

Mine however, is longer and less cool

"God doesn't hide from a crappy company..."


Quote:
Could you point me to ur explanation? My eyes hurt from reading all those posts at rapid speed, then typing as fast as I could.
Long story short...

Every spell is made from magic. But in each of these spell there are elements of Physical and Magical properties.

My theory is that magic attacks, damages only the "Magical Properties", hence leaving the physical portion unharmed.
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Old 2007-06-02, 08:27   Link #227
Kha
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Long story short...

Every spell is made from magic. But in each of these spell there are elements of Physical and Magical properties.

My theory is that magic attacks, damages only the "Magical Properties", hence leaving the physical portion unharmed.
Yeap, that's a "mixed attack". There are some attacks that deal more physical damage than magical damage (Vita's flying balls come to mind) because of the physical bits in the spell.

But I believe magic can affect flesh. In fact, I've split the term "magical damage" into 2: Non-lethal, and lethal. "Lethal" attacks both flesh and magic circuit and I'm sure is used against targets meant for destruction (Gadgets for example); "Non-lethal" attacks just the magic circuit, leaving the mage tired and reeling from "phantom pain". This occurs by varying the type of mana powering the spell. How does that occur exactly is anyone's guess. Canon only shows that it happens, and there are parallels in science, but I shan't bring it in for now unless you guys really want me to Load Cartridge (Or Chain ).

Is this short enuff? Cos I left all the justification out (which is what made the original so long. ).
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Old 2007-06-02, 08:31   Link #228
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Yeap, that's a "mixed attack". There are some attacks that deal more physical damage than magical damage (Vita's flying balls come to mind) because of the physical bits in the spell.

But I believe magic can affect flesh. In fact, I've split the term "magical damage" into 2: Non-lethal, and lethal. "Lethal" attacks both flesh and magic circuit and I'm sure is used against targets meant for destruction (Gadgets for example); "Non-lethal" attacks just the magic circuit, leaving the mage tired and reeling from "phantom pain". This occurs by varying the type of mana powering the spell. How does that occur exactly is anyone's guess. Canon only shows that it happens, and there are parallels in science, but I shan't bring it in for now unless you guys really want me to Load Cartridge (Or Chain ).

Is this short enuff? Cos I left all the justification out (which is what made the original so long. ).
Yup, it's short enough for me
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:02   Link #229
felix
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Kha where is all this magic circuit stuff comining from I never heard of it.
And no other series don't count or else we might end up discussing Ban Kai etc.

Also,
Quote:
Using canon terminology, we know that a person's magical energy (henceforward will be referred to by this poster as mana or MP) is manipulated and concentrated in his/her Linker Core.
When was it explicitly mentioned.
I think it's in his device.
  • Devices were described as to give the mage the ability to manipulate his magic ability. (season 1)
  • No mage has manipulated magic without having a device on him.
I don't recall linker cores being described as anything more then supposed magic batteries.

And..
Quote:
But we know that mana doesn't always come from the heart. In fact, it often manifests at the limbs or extremities, or basically where the mage intends to create the spell from. This tells us that there is a system of delivery, a bit like the heart and the arteries and veins that carry our blood around. Assuming that evolutionary parallels exist for such a conduction system (the lymphatic system and the circulatory system are very similar being the base of this assumption), we can say that the Linker Core is the "heart" of the mana conduction system, with invisible, intangible, and very motile mana "circuits" running inside to the outside of the mage, since SB proves that magic can persist outside of the body, and I don't see mages ingesting anything fortified with "mana".
Spells manifest either in the device or outside, presumably via the device since as season 2 shown, normal humans can become mages if they have a device.

There is no circuit or system.
It's all ye has mana thus yea can do spells.
I don't recall further development on this in the series.

Quote:
The Mana Circuit idea came from Fate/Stay Night and a few other places.
Therefore its fanfiction and holds no grounds. Neither as evidence or as a counter.
Not until it is mentioned in the series.

Then there's this...
Quote:
Actually, it was my idea, parallel'd from D&D's Non-lethal damage crossed with the "Mana Burn" spell from the Warcraft universe. Basically, what it means is "degree of exhaustion dealt to the mage by the amount of disruption made to the mana circuit as well as the overall reduction of the mage's mana pool." I admit magical damage was rather vague, so let's tighten it up: Non-lethal magic damage (assumed to be able to burn mana rather than flesh) and lethal magic damage (definitely burns flesh). Being able to switch in between the two to power one's spell is the magical equivalent to pulling one's punches, which also gives rise to Lethal physical damage and Non-lethal physical damage. There is too little to run on in canon to debate what kind of mana goes into non-lethal magical (NLM) damage, but we do know that it exhausts the mage's mana reserves, but leaves no bruises or scars, though it might burn or melt the barrier jacket or knight armor, which is magical.
How should I put this.
"Practice what you preach."

Namely,
Quote:
Inaccurate terms create confusion. That is a problem that was heavily tackled in human anatomy, thus giving me multus trouble remembering everything.
Also I posted a pic above, according to your theory either Nanoha's cross-fire was 100% physical or it dealt 100% NO Damage. Since the barrier jacket is unscared.
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:08   Link #230
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
[When was it explicitly mentioned.
I think it's in his device.
  • Devices were described as to give the mage the ability to manipulate his magic ability. (season 1)
  • No mage has manipulated magic without having a device on him.
I don't recall linker cores being described as anything more then supposed magic batteries.
I think you're forgetting Yuuno, Arf and Zafira, who are able to use magic without using devices.
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:09   Link #231
felix
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But we are not talking about familiars. But mages.
Oh wait~ Damn the farat boy.

-----
Just rememebered Yuuno's an alien so he dosn't count.
And Yuuno did tell Nanoha that she can comunicate with him as long as she has raging heart so obviously she can't control her magic on her own. My guess is Yuuno can't either but he has some artifacts with him.
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:12   Link #232
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But we are not talking about familiars. But mages.
Oh wait~ Damn the farat boy.
"Ferret-Boy"

Oh... If we're talking in that direction, then I forgot to mention Lindy, who is clearly a non-familiar that can use magic without a device. Certainly proof that magic can be cast without devices.
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:17   Link #233
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Kha where is all this magic circuit stuff comining from I never heard of it.
And no other series don't count or else we might end up discussing Ban Kai etc.
Correct. It's just that when I mentioned how I modelled the mana conduction system after the circulatory and lymphatic system I was afraid people wouldn't understand and so I put it in as an analogy. Should've made it clearer, now that you've pointed it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
When was it explicitly mentioned.
I think it's in his device.
  • Devices were described as to give the mage the ability to manipulate his magic ability. (season 1)
  • No mage has manipulated magic without having a device on him.
I don't recall linker cores being described as anything more then supposed magic batteries.

And..

Spells manifest either in the device or outside, presumably via the device since as season 2 shown, normal humans can become mages if they have a device.

There is no circuit or system.
It's all ye has mana thus yea can do spells.
I don't recall further development on this in the series.
This was proposed earlier in the thread, as we discussed how devices worked. But Yuuno, Zafira and Arf's magic attacks made us re-think it, and assign it to the Linker Core instead. I know Zafira and Arf are bad examples in this case, but then Yuuno was a full whole-blooded mage w/o a Device for most of the Nanohaverse and yet he could sling chains, heal people and put up barriers capable to resisting cartridge powered attacks for a significant amount of time. And also, the LC is also a place where spells are stored (at least the biological copy, from YnS' ability to use spells of the other mages based on their LC data.)

But I don't think Hayate can be considered a "normal human" AKA Neutral (fandom term). After all, it was mentioned that the YnS targeted individuals of high magic potential. The Book saw something in her.

Quote:
Therefore its fanfiction and holds no grounds. Neither as evidence or as a counter.
Not until it is mentioned in the series.
Once again, it was an analogy to facilitate understanding. The misunderstanding was my bad.
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:20   Link #234
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
But we are not talking about familiars. But mages.
Oh wait~ Damn the farat boy.

-----
Just rememebered Yuuno's an alien so he dosn't count.
And Yuuno did tell Nanoha that she can comunicate with him as long as she has raging heart so obviously she can't control her magic on her own. My guess is Yuuno can't either but he has some artifacts with him.
Point 1: When was it mentioned he was an Alien?

Point 2: When was it mentioned that he had some artefacts with him? Even in the sound stage, that pouch he had with him only had "a few photographs".

Plz don't fall into the hole you just warned me out of.

After Lowe's post: I think Cats' rebuttal might be that Lindy is a fairy, which I cannot rebutt properly cos she was a fairy in Toraha, and she still has those wings. But in Nanohaverse terms, we have several examples of people without Devices, casting magic, but its nothing compared to the ID users cos the ID assists in spellcasting by making the spell calculations easier (as discussed earlier).
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:23   Link #235
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*lol*
Thanks for the heads up~
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:24   Link #236
Chaos2Frozen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
-----
Just rememebered Yuuno's an alien so he dosn't count.
Give it up, he's Mid-Childan

Quote:
And Yuuno did tell Nanoha that she can comunicate with him as long as she has raging heart so obviously she can't control her magic on her own. My guess is Yuuno can't either but he has some artifacts with him.
Give it up, Yuuno was a much more skilled and experienced mage than Nanoha at that time

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

EDIT:

Anyway, wasn't it settle a long time ago?

Casting a spell is like doing math, anybody with enough knowledge could do it.

A device is like a calculator, it speeds up the process.

But in the end, it's still up to the mage.

(And yes, there are different types of 'calculators'...)

And it is possible to do math without a calculator...
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:31   Link #237
felix
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Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
Give it up, he's Mid-Childan
No actually I wasn't completely off in that respect,
While it's true that there might be no significance, Mr Supreme Commander in season 2 did say something like: "I too found a traveler from another world." hence there is a distinction between worlds so Yuuno is, at least just technically, a alien.
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:35   Link #238
Chaos2Frozen
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
No actually I wasn't completely off in that respect,
While it's true that there might be no significance, Mr Supreme Commander in season 2 did say something like: "I too found a traveler from another world." hence there is a distinction between worlds so Yuuno is, at least just technically, a alien.
An alien to Nanoha's world, but not an Alien to magic

Give it up

EDIT:

Wait... This just sink in...

KERO-CHAN?!
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:51   Link #239
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I already said I gave up on it
I only felt like adding some evidence to the Yuuno = Alien thing. Not like it matters much to the discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen View Post
KERO-CHAN?!
What?!
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Old 2007-06-02, 09:59   Link #240
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
I already said I gave up on it
I only felt like adding some evidence to the Yuuno = Alien thing. Not like it matters much to the discussion.

What?!
You were calling Keroko Kero-chan a few posts back.

Now that makes Chaos, Kha and Keroko the three forum members who were addressed with -chan.
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