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Old 2004-02-12, 23:26   Link #41
Neon01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashibaka
I think society is a big boy and can take care of itself.

I'd strenuously disagree. Why have laws at all if society can take care of itself? The laws *weren't* there way back when, and a whole lot of malformed people were a byproduct.
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Old 2004-02-12, 23:29   Link #42
Shii
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Laws are to protect society from its discontents.
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Old 2004-02-12, 23:54   Link #43
Yebyosh
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashibaka
I think society is a big boy and can take care of itself.

Laws are to protect society from its discontents.
I don't think so. We are all human beings, each a product of many various factors in genetic makeup and environmental factors. Our assertions for uniqueness and conformity are strong. In short, human beings are one heck of a confusing creature to study (not to forget that they are generally confused about themselves as well).

Without structures imposed to preserve a hierarchy and organisation, all civilization breaks down as each individual attempts to assert their individual preferences. The chain effect of this will shatter whatever mould the current civilizaion has. A small group of individuals will get sick of the situation and band together, creating laws yet again. If their influence is strong that they sway more to obey their laws, they will win and create a new society. If they fail... chaos continue.

Laws are the basis of civilization (society). Without them, civilization as we know it cannot exist.

Here's another thought. Laws are only laws when people choose to obey them whether willingly or out of fear from punishment. When nobody bothers about them continuously and they are not enforced, they are not really laws anymore. (Since we are all humans, stupid laws do come up as well...)

In a way, I see the restrictions against incest were laid down mainly to:

1. reduce genetic mutations (increase group strength)
2. encourage social bindings (marry another clan, build stronger inter-social ties)
2a. encourage social interactions (a guy sitting at home 'admiring' his female relations is not going to go out much is it?)
3. reinforce family as the basic unit of society
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Old 2004-02-13, 00:02   Link #44
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ashibaka
Laws are to protect society from its discontents.
In agreement with what Yebyosh is saying, one could offer the following:
Laws are to protect society from itself, and its natural tendancy towards chaos.

I haven't thought about it enough to decide my own opinion on the subject. There are good arguments to be made on both sides.
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Old 2004-02-13, 00:39   Link #45
Neon01
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yebyosh
I don't think so. We are all human beings, each a product of many various factors in genetic makeup and environmental factors. Our assertions for uniqueness and conformity are strong. In short, human beings are one heck of a confusing creature to study (not to forget that they are generally confused about themselves as well).

Without structures imposed to preserve a hierarchy and organisation, all civilization breaks down as each individual attempts to assert their individual preferences. The chain effect of this will shatter whatever mould the current civilizaion has. A small group of individuals will get sick of the situation and band together, creating laws yet again. If their influence is strong that they sway more to obey their laws, they will win and create a new society. If they fail... chaos continue.

Laws are the basis of civilization (society). Without them, civilization as we know it cannot exist.

Here's another thought. Laws are only laws when people choose to obey them whether willingly or out of fear from punishment. When nobody bothers about them continuously and they are not enforced, they are not really laws anymore. (Since we are all humans, stupid laws do come up as well...)

In a way, I see the restrictions against incest were laid down mainly to:

1. reduce genetic mutations (increase group strength)
2. encourage social bindings (marry another clan, build stronger inter-social ties)
2a. encourage social interactions (a guy sitting at home 'admiring' his female relations is not going to go out much is it?)
3. reinforce family as the basic unit of society

Couldn't agree more.

Ashibaka: so is a crime any less wrong if the man who commits it is unaware of it's criminal nature? That is to say, when a person is culpable of murder, does it matter whether he knows he did wrong or not? That intent of a criminal may enter into the execution of punishment, but it has nothing to do with the establishment of laws.

Last edited by Neon01; 2004-02-13 at 00:52.
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Old 2004-02-13, 01:04   Link #46
Iridi
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relentlessflame
Seiryuu, that is an extremely good summary of Onegai Twins - good job! That is exactly why I say that I don't understand at all why "incest" would bother people in that show. Nothing ever happens, and it's totally unoffensive; it's certainly not "about" that, as you say. Again, good job on the summary - very well written!
I agree, the thought that family togetherness might be affected by the breaking down of incestual barriers is an interesting take.

...

The reason why people complain about Onegai Twins' incest rests in that the series attempts to break down our own barriers. It is the same with homosexual relationships in many such shows as CardCaptor Sakura, Fruits Basket, and more. I compare these because the themes are both sexual and at least more or less taboo still in society...

These anime are portraying incest or relationships very close to them, and homosexuality, in a positive light, which in turn makes us question our own beliefs and whether our own barriers have been built correctly.

These social taboos are certainly there for a reason, be it genetic, social, and/or familial, and to have them challenged is simply uncomfortable.

For me, watching Onegai Twins was disturbing for the above reason, especially when added to it were all scenes depicting the two little girls naked, a probably attempt to ridicule/question the lolita taboo.

At least anime hasn't tried to paint rape as a positive thing yet, unless you watch lots of hentai... which DOES paint rape as a positive thing, which has led to train molestations and more... perhaps not directly, of course...

The worst part of Onegai Twins was the simple fact that it was just not well done. Things were handled poorly, the story was in the end not closed well at all (how the * did they figure out who was the twin?), adding to the mediocre middle, and the characters just whined far too much about the same thing over and over, to the point where it became a nuisance mantra and made them seem extremely bland and one-sided. "Are we related? But maybe we're not related" Yegods!

To try to handle such a complex theme so poorly trivialized the whole social taboo theme, and in the end made Onegai Twins just a plain bad anime. Otherwise there'd be a lot more controversy instead of obscure whining about the incest issue.
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Old 2004-02-13, 02:21   Link #47
Fronzel
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kurara
Besides, in Oedipus.. I believe that he was in love with his mother but there was never really a relationship..
No, you've got it wrong. Oedipus was born to the King and Queen of Thebes, prophesied to slay his father, left on a hill for that reason, rescued by someone, meet his father on a road many years later (unaware that it was his father, or that he was the King), killed him over a rather stupid argument, and slew the Sphinx terrorizing Thebes.

Oedipus then became King himself, and married the Queen, the old Kingís wife, and his own mother. Both were unaware of their relation. They had children together.

When Oedipus and the Queen learn of their relation through means I cannot recall, the Queen hung herself, Oedipus gouged his eyes out with a buckle from her clothing and left Thebes to wander around in misery until he died. And just think of the children!


There. Thatís the story of E.D Puss. Just so everyone knows.

EDIT: And Freud's "Oedipus Complex" is something rather different. But be aware that Freud's specific theories don't hold much weight with psychologists anymore.

Last edited by Fronzel; 2004-02-13 at 02:34.
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Old 2004-02-13, 10:02   Link #48
Neon01
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I wanted to make it clear that my original question wasn't solely pertinent to Onegai Twins, there are other anime and manga in which incestuous relationships occur. For one more example look at the manga (and possibly anime - I haven't seen it) DNA^2.
Spoiler:
This wasn't a central theme to the manga, and I doubt that the author was trying to "poke fun" at the taboo of incest. Just wanted to bring to your attention the fact that incest is not always merely a controversial tool in anime, sometimes it's just plain there.

On an unrelated note: the intro music in Onegai Twins absolutely kicks ass. I wonder where I can get more by that artist.
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Old 2004-02-13, 12:07   Link #49
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iridi
The reason why people complain about Onegai Twins' incest rests in that the series attempts to break down our own barriers. [...] These anime are portraying incest or relationships very close to them, and homosexuality, in a positive light, which in turn makes us question our own beliefs and whether our own barriers have been built correctly.
(Not to further the focus on Onegai Twins...) But, see, I would totally disagree with you. The characters in Onegai Twins struggled a lot with the topic of incest; if the producers were trying to paint it in a "positive light", it would never have bothered anyone. They struggled with their feelings because they knew that, if they did turn out to be related, they could never act on their feelings. Incest was the barrier that prevented them from having a romantic relationship - if anything that is a "realistic" take on the subject. As Kurara said yesterday "In Onegai Twins, they have never met each other before, and they aren't even sure if they really are brother and sister. It's much different, and I believe this could happen to anyone." This is why I didn't find it disturbing, uncomfortable, or even in any way threatening to my moral values.
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Old 2004-02-13, 18:26   Link #50
Copy Ninja
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speaking of incest...i know this is old,
but at the end of DBGT when everyone goes their separate ways
Goten says, "Let's go home, mom." and carries her away like a groom would his bride on their honeymoon. n e 1 else remember that. (guess thats where the pairing in the doujinshi comes from.)
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Old 2004-03-25, 05:52   Link #51
Devin
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I think i should post my two cents. I definately agree with what most of you said here. Especially about the three of twins in Onegai Twins never having met before. Let say for example, you grew up living together with a person who you thought was your sister. Then many years later, one day you two find out that you guys aren't related at all. Would your brother and sister relationship dissippate? I highly doubt it. To me, Incest is more of a family oriented thing. If you grew up as brother and sisters, whether you are related or not, you act and play the role of siblings. So a sudden discovery that you two are related shouldn't change the role you two had for many years. In that situation, if they eventaully became lovers therefore, would be pretty.... abnormal.

But in another situation, say you never met someone before, and when you get to know him/her, and gradually, you fall in love with each other. Your love continue to grow until one day you discover that you two are actually full blooded siblings. Then, would you disregard your current feelings for each other? Perhaps, but it would be very difficult thing to do i'd assume, even with the ackwardness of the new relevation.

Of course, the worst case scenerio is in Angel Sanctuary. Where two person play the role of siblings AND they are full blooded sibilings. That's why it's hard for many people to accept that kind relationship, even me whom i consider pretty open minded.
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Old 2004-03-25, 10:15   Link #52
Archuka
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Devin
I think i should post my two cents. I definately agree with what most of you said here. Especially about the three of twins in Onegai Twins never having met before. Let say for example, you grew up living together with a person who you thought was your sister. Then many years later, one day you two find out that you guys aren't related at all. Would your brother and sister relationship dissippate? I highly doubt it. To me, Incest is more of a family oriented thing. If you grew up as brother and sisters, whether you are related or not, you act and play the role of siblings. So a sudden discovery that you two are related shouldn't change the role you two had for many years. In that situation, if they eventaully became lovers therefore, would be pretty.... abnormal.

But in another situation, say you never met someone before, and when you get to know him/her, and gradually, you fall in love with each other. Your love continue to grow until one day you discover that you two are actually full blooded siblings. Then, would you disregard your current feelings for each other? Perhaps, but it would be very difficult thing to do i'd assume, even with the ackwardness of the new relevation.
I agree. Love is love and love doesn't know biology or genetics. Incest between siblings just sounds weird to me, much weirder than with a first cousin (I barely know most of my cousins), but I don't think any of this applies if you don't know you are blood related.
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Old 2004-03-25, 14:48   Link #53
mantidor
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for me incest its WRONG!! it just freaks me out, and i think i'm pretty open minded. However i love angel sanctuary!!!! the story has so much angst in it, and i love that. so i'm in a dilemma, I like the angst that an incest relation has, but i dislike the incest itself.

Many japanese authors actually like the theme ( even the book of " grave of the fireflies" has a hint of that) maybe because the are a little more openminded. For what i've read, japanese culture look at sexual themes like something a little embarrasing but not a sin. We in the western cultures are used to see sex as a sin and a reason to go to hell, so incest and homosexuality are even worse

And one more thing, may of you have said that relations between cousins are common in all the world except USA. I think you are wrong. Here in Colombia and all Latin America IMO incest even between cousins its still a taboo. Maybe its because our families are more closed together, so cousins are almost brothers and sisters. That's my case, i grow up with all my cousins like if we were brothers and sisters


anyway, its just my opinion



sorry for the bad english
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Old 2004-03-25, 15:35   Link #54
bluemist
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Here incest in any form is taboo. I also think it has religious and medical implications here, such as 'incest is sinful' or 'you'll bear unhealthy babies', that kind of thing. But I saw a news feature about this topic on local TV once. There was a couple, they are biological brother and sister, and they were in love with each other for some reason. And so they had babies, and reportedly healthy ones. I guess they were pretty lucky. Well they left their family because of the forbidden relationship, and they aren't married.

They are discriminated socially here the same way as gays, despite us being a democratic society.

Enough of reality. I pondered in this one. There are multitudes of ero-games (bishoujo game/h-games) out there with an 'incest' theme. And the more annoying thing is: "they are not even related". There are so many of these games out there wherein the male character has a female love interest which is his 'adopted sister'. It means they are not biological siblings, but I guess they lived and grew together as brother and sister. I'd say what's up with that? Can I call it "legal incest"?? Though that relationship isn't immoral, don't you think I still promotes incestual relationships in general?

Why do some Japanese get turned on with a girl growling 'onii-chan!' to them in bed? Such fetishes...
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Old 2004-03-25, 15:52   Link #55
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I was told that the "medical implictations" in offspring of incest wouldn't start showing up until 2nd generation. It's probably not a solid line anyway, depends how the genes combine and such. The problem comes from the limited gene pool. Bad recesive genes can easily show up when both parents have them.

Incest in anime doesn't bother me. It's not me and my sister so I'm sort of seperated from the situation and I'm not bothered by it. Even in real life. If 2 siblings fall in love, fine by me. Not something I would do but they're not me. Similar to homosexuality. I wouldn't do it, doesn't mean you can't.
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Old 2004-03-25, 17:29   Link #56
Bullsquat
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Old 2004-03-25, 17:52   Link #57
kj1980
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluemist
Enough of reality. I pondered in this one. There are multitudes of ero-games (bishoujo game/h-games) out there with an 'incest' theme. And the more annoying thing is: "they are not even related". There are so many of these games out there wherein the male character has a female love interest which is his 'adopted sister'. It means they are not biological siblings, but I guess they lived and grew together as brother and sister. I'd say what's up with that? Can I call it "legal incest"?? Though that relationship isn't immoral, don't you think I still promotes incestual relationships in general?

Why do some Japanese get turned on with a girl growling 'onii-chan!' to them in bed? Such fetishes...
I can explain that.

There are actually two censorship associations in Japan regarding games and media. They regulate what is legal and acceptable according to Japanese laws. They are also the backbone of the game/anime/manga/media/movie industry and is probably something similar to the NAACP in the United States - they are the ones that go to court to go around loopholes.

Sofurin - Ethics Organization of Computer Software: http://www.sofurin.org/
Medirin - Media Ethics Association: http://www.media-ethics.com/

Example A: Japanese national law forbids incestual relationships between siblings.
Response A: Although the Japaneses national law forbids sibling relationships it does not clearly specify that the two siblings need to be blood-related or not.

Example B: Recently the Japanese national law forbid any expression (games made after this law went into effect) of sexual conduct for a character that is under the age of 18.
Response B: The Japanese law did not state whether the character may or may not look under 18. Hence, even if the character looks like a middle-school or high-school student, the loop-hole exists where so long as we do not say they are in middle-school or high-school, or if we just state them as "all characters represented are over the age of 18" is perfectly legal.

Example C: Minors under the age of 18 cannot buy pornographic material
Response C: Even if the ero-game is released, it is perfectly legal then to alter and remove the ero-scenes all together when they are released in the console game market. Hence middle-school and high-school students can buy such games as they are not pornographic material anymore because there aren't any sex scenes involved.

Of course, these two organizations do not back the ero-game/ero-anime industry only. They are a major force that regulates and censors all forms of games, media, and the like to protect freedom of speech and expression as guarateed by the Japanese Constitution of 1945. Think of them as a group of expensive lawyers and union labor guys who gets into argument with the government every now and then everytime such alterations and amendments to the laws are made. Sometimes they win, sometimes they lose, sometimes each side has to compensate.

Hence, when you buy an ero-game, you are likely to see a stamp from either of these two commissions stating that "this game/media comforms to the standard regulations as mandated by [insert regulation committee here]."
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Old 2004-03-25, 20:44   Link #58
Anthias
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yebyosh
. In short, human beings are one heck of a confusing creature to study
LOL! you got that right! (I'm an Anthropologist - Really!)

This is an interesting thread. Keep arguing it out guys! you fascinate me!. Hairy topics like incest tend to be very sore clashing points between cultural belief systems, and they thus inspire some great discussions between those of differing backgrounds if the environment is right and nobody is going to spill blood over it.

These topics bring out the ethnocentric ideals people possess (sometimes in their ugliest forms). By far the most prevelant online today is Amerocentrism, which personally drives me batty - it is arrogant and often pointless in its unwillingness to "see the other side" (this is not a bashing of american ideals, just a statement of the effects the cultural values tend to have). A discussion like this allows others to express their views for a change.

It's a great big world out there, and the cultural and social diversity is immense beyond reckoning. Somebody will dissagree with everything you say, and they will be RIGHT!. But so will you. All you believe, all you think and say, ESSPECIALLY when on a sensitive topic like this, is influenced, if not entirely governed, by your cultural conditioning. When it gets interesting is when the stronger minds (a reasonable percentage I am pleased to add) start to break away from these ethnocentric notions and actually to see the diversity for what it is an live with tolerance for the other mindsets around them.

VIVA LA DIFFERENCE!

Oh, and as a psychological thing for the guy who couldn't imagine a relationship with his sisters but could tolerate incest in onegai twins - The difference is that when you have known your sister all your life, or all hers, she is your sister. That is it. You can not question that the sibling relationship is there. when you meet her for the FIRST TIME as a grown (or growing), sexual entity, then you have DOUBT, even after proof of relation, because you have NEVER had that sister as a child, and as a child you affirm your sibling relationships strongly, daily, and this is a crucial factor. We all are aware of THIS factor in the problem, even if we do not realise it consciously, because we have experienced the affirmation of siblings through childhood (or substitute siblings in the playground for only-children - not nearly as healthy tho). This is why some of us can watch something like onegai twins, with complete comfort and tollerance or acceptance of the thematic ideas, but be repulsed by the notion of its introduction into our own familial situations. I would be interest to know the percentage of those for whom this is NOT the case, who were only children.

That's my lecture. Later!
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Old 2004-03-25, 20:48   Link #59
Lina Inverse
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I really don't see anything creepy in there... what's so bad about it if it's among cousins only? Don't be so uptight.
The only creepy thing is if it's among first degree blood related persons, like parents and their actual (not adopted) sons/daughters
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Old 2004-03-25, 21:06   Link #60
relentlessflame
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthias
[...] This is why some of us can watch something like onegai twins, with complete comfort and tollerance or acceptance of the thematic ideas, but be repulsed by the notion of its introduction into our own familial situations. I would be interest to know the percentage of those for whom this is NOT the case, who were only children.
Interesting; I agree with you. I have spoken up fairly often on these boards about not being phased by the "quasi-incest" in shows like Da Capo and Onegai Twins. Perhaps the fact that I have two sisters and that the relationships portrayed didn't feel like sibling relationships to me played a part in that. In fact, when people watch those shows and can think of nothing but "ack!!!! incest!!!!" it makes me wonder if I'm watching the same show! I'm also curious about the relation between those bothered by the hints of incest in Onegai Twins and only children; it would be an interesting study!
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