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Old 2007-06-05, 09:05   Link #1
Skyfall
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Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series

Welcome to Military, Authority & Decisions In MSLN series discussion thread.

This thread is a place where you can discuss Military and Government related questions and issues in Nanoha-verse, such as the authority within TSAB, their military system, chain of command, etc ...

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On a final note - This is a discussion thread, meaning that people are bound to disagree with you. Please be polite to your fellow members, and treat each other with mutual respect. Keep the discussion on topic, and above all - enjoy!
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Old 2007-06-05, 09:10   Link #2
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Well before we begin I'd like to say that Nanoha was right/Nanoha was wrong is getting tired. Let's try and unravel the big picture shall we? As in, how old is the TSAB? How does it work? What's the hierachy like? I'm sure things like this would have great pertinence to a Nanohaverse fanuniverse author like those who populate the FF and OC threads, myself included. Good chatting, and Safe Travels.
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Old 2007-06-05, 09:23   Link #3
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Let's see...

- Elite mages gets fast promotions. Higher ranks help.

- The 3 L.As were the foundation that shaped TSAB into what it is today. Whether or not they were the actual founders of TSAB, or did they just "modernize" a lesser faction(s) or maybe separate TSAB-ish organiztions into the gigantic dimensional administrator we know today...well, I'll leave that to the true blue moon-speakers.

- There exist a self-governed Belka region...whatever it implies. Vatican of Mid-childa? Doesn't that make Carim the Pope or something?...Cardinal Acous?

- Right-wing and left-wing politics. Typical. They're everywhere.

- Well, there's still some general confusion of ranks differentiation at times due to different military units as in the Air, Ground, Naval but the overall hierachy is generally the same as with regular militaries, like the JSDF. Though I wonder how far the 3 Admirals rank as in their Admiralship goes...Grand Admirals? Fleet Admiral?

- Balance of forces. Limiters allow leeway. They probably don't mind in general other than other forces losing their precious members due to being understaffed, but seems more like a loose regulation with appropriate measures.

- Nepotism has it's hands in TSAB politics.

- Validity of mage rankings. Clearly they play a role here and there, but generally, it's more like a take-for-benefits kinda thing since it's not Zafira's officially ranked due to his familiar status, and most likely military members generally get ranked accordingly based on test results and performance too, but they can take the test if they think they're capable of it.
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Old 2007-06-05, 09:45   Link #4
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Mine in a flash

- TSAB age = MC Year

- TSAB was once an arm of the galactic military, now civilianzed, making the bureau look as professional as an established military of 500 years or more. Also includes the inclusion of military ranks into such an administrative office.

- 3 signs of the Bureau = still not determined.

- Belka administrative Region (BAR or VAR) = once a refugee zone given by MC...

- Midchilda is actually a fusion of 2 nearby space regions, thus arriving at a huge system of planets.

- Government if Royal-Parliamentary, borne from the two systems that once made up MC, with the real power in the hands of the Prime Minister while the designated Royal holds the third spot in government.

- Royalty and family run along matriarchal lines.

- TSAB is headed by a 11 person panel known as the board of directors- 1 of these slots is for the administrator of VAR and one is for the only military person in the entire bureau- occupied by the galactic military commander.

- More later
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Old 2007-06-05, 09:49   Link #5
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Mine in a flash
Source? Or is this your fictional intepretation?

If it's the latter...I think we should only discuss presented facts here and base the discussions and speculation on them, really.
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Old 2007-06-05, 09:55   Link #6
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
Source? Or is this your fictional intepretation?

If it's the latter...I think we should only discuss presented facts here and base the discussions and speculation on them, really.
well a bit of speculation and fictional interpretation...

- well since a group of that importance and caliber has to come from somewhere- not just set up and expect to fully function after less than a century. It takes time to develop a tradition, and the bureau seems to have that for an organization of that nature that is that young- so it has to come from somewhere.

- given the cirumstances and what limited facts we have, it's the most ideal theories that i have right now, but i'll let you guys put in and i'll comment.
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Old 2007-06-05, 10:02   Link #7
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well a bit of speculation and fictional interpretation...

- well since a group of that importance and caliber has to come from somewhere- not just set up and expect to fully function after less than a century. It takes time to develop a tradition, and the bureau seems to have that for an organization of that nature that is that young- so it has to come from somewhere.

- given the cirumstances and what limited facts we have, it's the most ideal theories that i have right now, but i'll let you guys put in and i'll comment.
Such cases of comparatively young organizations having a rich and diverse tradition aren't unheard of... although yes, they did have to come from somewhere. The TSAB had to have evolved from a much larger organization that somehow relegated its various assignments to smaller branches.

The USAF for example, is technically less than 60 years old, and yet it's importance in the United States Armed Forces is not to be underestimated. Of course, it had existed as the US Army Air Corp prior to the end of World War II, but that doesn't change the fact that as an organization the USAF is comparatively young to the other branches.
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Old 2007-06-05, 10:08   Link #8
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@ LoweGear

That's exactly my view on the bureau

The USAF is one of the youngest branches of the US Mil, but it already has a 'tradition' (that aura that this branch is professional- like the army and navy- armies and navies have almost been hand in hand, and air forces came in when someone had the idea of trying to rule your enemies' sky). as the USAAC, it was just an extension of the USA during WWI- as a need to gain superiority over land and naval forces.

And the Marines would be another example of such 'young' organizations having 'the tradition'- they have been forged by war and subsequently, their need to fight in extreme situations.
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Old 2007-06-05, 10:19   Link #9
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@ LoweGear

That's exactly my view on the bureau

The USAF is one of the youngest branches of the US Mil, but it already has a 'tradition' (that aura that this branch is professional- like the army and navy- armies and navies have almost been hand in hand, and air forces came in when someone had the idea of trying to rule your enemies' sky). as the USAAC, it was just an extension of the USA during WWI- as a need to gain superiority over land and naval forces.

And the Marines would be another example of such 'young' organizations having 'the tradition'- they have been forged by war and subsequently, their need to fight in extreme situations.
I think that for the purposes of this thread, it'd be best to have a more concrete definition of that "tradition" we're talking about here = The tradition of professional duty and service stemming from the professional doctrines, disciplines, laws, rules and regulations that encompass and define the entire scope of the organization and its functions.

Hoping this'd serve as the baseline for when we refer to that "tradition" in future reference.
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Last edited by LoweGear; 2007-06-05 at 10:30.
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Old 2007-06-05, 10:34   Link #10
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For a Bureau, the TSAB seems to have a much more streamlined bureaucracy than exists in the Real World. (Or maybe we just don't see the frantic paper-pushers in the background.)

One thing I've been wondering, and this may fit here and in the Magic And Technology thread: how does the TSAB keep its records? Is it stored in the Infinite Library, or somewhere else? In hardcopy? If so, is actual paper used, or synthetics?

(Anyone who's seen the clerical side of the military knows about the stupendous amount of paperwork required before a soldier is allowed to shoot even one bullet. Now imagine that for an interdimensional/interstellar bureaucracy, and imagine the number of trees required for the paper. I'm guessing synthetics.)

Also, on another note, is the Infinite Library completely under the jurisdiction of the TSAB, or only partly? Is access restricted, and what sort of information is inside (specifically, security clearances)? Or is everything in it declassified?

How far do the TSAB's powers run: are they a largely military force like the UN Peacekeeping forces, or are they also administrative (as the name suggests) like the UN itself? How closely does the TSAB parallel the UN?
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Old 2007-06-05, 11:17   Link #11
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Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
One thing I've been wondering, and this may fit here and in the Magic And Technology thread: how does the TSAB keep its records? Is it stored in the Infinite Library, or somewhere else? In hardcopy? If so, is actual paper used, or synthetics?
I'd assume that the Infinite Library also acts as a records database for the bureau, complete with seperate levels of security for more classified information.
Hard copy and digital data, I'd also assume. Books as we've seen, information lists and historical records organised by a sort of pseudo-SQL management database (Yuuno's "search magic" acting like a universal search engine), as well as video data with regards to episode 9 of StrikerS.

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Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
(Anyone who's seen the clerical side of the military knows about the stupendous amount of paperwork required before a soldier is allowed to shoot even one bullet. Now imagine that for an interdimensional/interstellar bureaucracy, and imagine the number of trees required for the paper. I'm guessing synthetics.)
I dunno. Everything looks like it's done digitally via PDA pads and "floating" montor screens, with very little physical copy required unless necessary (like archiving). For an organisation that relies on quick access to the scene, having hardcopy of that scale would unnecessarily slow down any kind of action required.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
Also, on another note, is the Infinite Library completely under the jurisdiction of the TSAB, or only partly? Is access restricted, and what sort of information is inside (specifically, security clearances)? Or is everything in it declassified?
TSAB-maintained. Don't forget that in A's the TSAB had asked Yuuno to act as the librarian, so I would assume that the Library itself is under TSAB management.

As for access restrictions, see first reply paragraph above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
How far do the TSAB's powers run: are they a largely military force like the UN Peacekeeping forces, or are they also administrative (as the name suggests) like the UN itself? How closely does the TSAB parallel the UN?
My view is that the TSAB is just one of many seperate organisations that deal with work of that nature. Given how short-staffed they usually are, I'd imagine that the Section 6 is in effect a small elite force trained to deal with many situations at hand, sort of like the SAS or Marines with emergency assistance, rescue and so on, while the TSAB itself is the greater collective army/navy/airforce.
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Old 2007-06-05, 11:25   Link #12
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There's one thing that generally bothers me about IL and by extention, Yuuno's general position within the TSAB.

I think it's safe to assume that Yuuno, being the database manager and chief librarian, and also a civilian-TSAB associated member has a certain degree of classified information management, among other things. At the very least, things like the theft of Jewel Seed could be revealed from Fate to Yuuno without any problems whatsoever.

It brings out the question of how much information does Yuuno actually control in general. Stuff like ancient history and stuff are naturally, probably under his complete jurisdiction, but what about more recent stuff? Or really sensitive ones? Unless Yuuno's position within TSAB is larger than what it seems, I highly doubt he's got too much leeway in certain things.

So, if IL is only the "safe" extention to the database of TSAB, bar a few things, then naturally there should be something like another sensitive database, probably under BoD's direct administration and control.
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Old 2007-06-05, 11:36   Link #13
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Originally Posted by Nightengale View Post
There's one thing that generally bothers me about IL and by extention, Yuuno's general position within the TSAB.

I think it's safe to assume that Yuuno, being the database manager and chief librarian, and also a civilian-TSAB associated member has a certain degree of classified information management, among other things. At the very least, things like the theft of Jewel Seed could be revealed from Fate to Yuuno without any problems whatsoever.

It brings out the question of how much information does Yuuno actually control in general. Stuff like ancient history and stuff are naturally, probably under his complete jurisdiction, but what about more recent stuff? Or really sensitive ones? Unless Yuuno's position within TSAB is larger than what it seems, I highly doubt he's got too much leeway in certain things.

So, if IL is only the "safe" extention to the database of TSAB, bar a few things, then naturally there should be something like another sensitive database, probably under BoD's direct administration and control.
Well no, this of it this way. The Infinite Library is a vast computer database/OS for information management, and Yuuno is the search engine. While he technically has access to every file in the database, without the required security clearance and access (passwords etc) he cannot view those files. Don't forget that the Infinite Library has records of everything, everywhere, including classified and top-secret information (the origins of the Aces, Book of Darkness records etc). I'd say that any information that goes in there is first locked with the required security access codes and clearance levels before it actually goes into the database.
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Old 2007-06-05, 11:48   Link #14
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So, he controls and manages the information superhighway, but doesn't neccesarily has access to the "very sensitive" ones? Makes a lot of sense.

Thanks.
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Old 2007-06-05, 12:04   Link #15
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We can conclude a few things from observation of the TSAB and by comparing and contrasting them with what we know about various militaries.

First off, the TSAB is -emphatically- not a war-fighting military. That's not to say they never have, but if they have, it's far enough back that the NCOs and officers are from a new crop. When you look at things like the restrictions, limiting the available firepower to "prevent unit rivalry" and all that, well... those are not the sorts of concerns that affect a force going into the field for large-scale combat. (Indeed, real militaries specifically promote some healthy rivalry.)

TSAB in the field - that is to say, operating outside their domestic Midchildan territory - seems to look like the British Navy during the imperial period. Ships have a lot of autonomy, their captains are expected to uphold imperial policy and take initiative when out of communications range, and a little bit of irregularity is generally allowed so long as the results turned out to be good. They'll deploy forces to defend Midchildan interests, and protection of the locals is also a goal, though secondary - Lindy was about five minutes from turning Tokyo into a big-ass bay at the end of A's, for example.

TSAB at home looks and acts like the Japanese military. Not surprising, given the writers' cultural bias. Lots of training, disaster relief, assistance in law-enforcement tasks, not a whole lot of the boom boom.
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Old 2007-06-05, 12:35   Link #16
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Continuing on. ;p

We can -assume- that fighting is not the only goal for the TSAB's existence. (Were it so, why the HELL would they have banned conventional, non-magical weaponry?) One of its major aims is (almost certainly) to provide training, support, and direction to mages, who are after all a certain percentage of the Mid population in general. Mages are dangerous, they can hurt and kill people, they can break the law in all sorts of interesting ways, they can go set up pocket empires in "unadministrated" space, they can fly drunk... all that jazz. But a mage in the TSAB is a lot less likely to kill herself or others by accident, and much, much less likely to turn their powers to anti-social uses.

We can assume that an effort to "control" magic the way that some countries here control guns would fail outright. Nanoha plus a totally-unregistered device that Yuuno just happened to be carrying equals really powerful force of destruction, no? Furthermore, there seem to be a lot of Lost Logia-type artifacts floating around - even if most of them aren't all that dangerous, they keep turning up often enough that you'd have a steady stream of them to deal with anyway.

So why would a young mage want to join the TSAB?

- Respect. The TSAB's a real military in terms of ceremonials. You get a nice uniform, you get saluted, you're part of a team of people like you, the normal self-actualization stuff from the military.

- "Be all you can be." The TSA's a good source of training, they're actively interested in developing the potential of their mages, they're gonna provide you with a device and cartridges and all that. They'll teach you to fly, LITERALLY.

- Other options. Which is to say, -are- there any? We don't actually know how much of a role magic plays in the Mid civilian sector. We can safely assume that the medical folks use a lot. We know about Yuuno, but also that he's a little unusual. We know that there's a research establishment. And... what else? We -don't- know that it's used in everyday tasks like construction or manufacturing. Or even in sports. (Hell, do they have sports?)

If we assume that the TSAB also has "mage control" as one of their missions, this would account for things like limiters and not liking the idea of sticking too many powerful mages in one unit. Coup problems, possibly? They'd have a terrible time if Div 6 went rogue as constituted, and that's just a few girls and some support staff. If you loaded up a special air force unit with lots of AA and AAA mages, they would have a good chance of taking control and holding it long enough to push a coup through...

It's obvious that mage rank and military rank are not unrelated. Every high-ranking mage we know is an officer. (We can conclude that the usual difference between commissioned officers and enlisted personnel is simply not present in the TSA, or is not understood by the writers; certainly there's nothing to imply that ALL of the characters from A's have had, say, leadership training at an academy. OTOH, they could just be mustangs...)

It's also obvious that there are problems with the TSA's rank structure when applied to Our Heroes. Hayate's a Lt. Colonel at 19, for Christ's sake! In a conventional military, that's a slot for a veteran leader, at least in their late 30s or more likely late 40s. Granted that Hayate has a freakishly unusual amount of magical power, but assuming she stays healthy, she's almost certain to end up as one of the most senior officers in the TSAB. (On the other hand, it's entirely possible that her promotion had an extremely large amount of "by way of courtesy" - that is, she's a Lt. Col. because she wanted the job, they wanted to give her the job, and it was a Lt. Col. slot. Also, if they end up promoting Nanoha or Fate to Major, then Hayate would need to be a Lt. Col. for story reasons so she could keep out-ranking them... but that's still pretty stupid.)

So what's with the rank inflation? Well, for one, we've -never- seen an example of a mage being placed under the command of another mage with inferior abilities. It's entirely possible that mage rank is explicitly tied to military rank, and that passing a ranking test actually DOES get you "promoted". But then you're desperately short on officers, because after all, how many AAA-mages are in the service? Presumably not too many, if they're recruiting 9-year-old girls with that kind of potential and putting them straight into the line! ;P So at least theoretically, there are a number of officers who aren't super-skilled mages, simply to keep the table of organization filled.

Also, what about the enlisted personnel? Our B-rankers are all privates. The only other ones we know about are Rein (special case, but AA, right?) and Vice (who knows?), both at Master Sergeant.
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Old 2007-06-05, 12:38   Link #17
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Well before we begin I'd like to say that Nanoha was right/Nanoha was wrong is getting tired. Let's try and unravel the big picture shall we? As in, how old is the TSAB? How does it work? What's the hierachy like? I'm sure things like this would have great pertinence to a Nanohaverse fanuniverse author like those who populate the FF and OC threads, myself included. Good chatting, and Safe Travels.
But a round up of some issues wouldn't hurt.

Pre-Mock~Battle-Development

Act 7 - Hotel Mission.
Intel For Nanoha-Fate-Force: The hotel will have an auction, due to the delicate nature of items exchanged and convenience of dealing in lost-logia, smuggling operation are suspected.

Objective 1 is to secure the hotel and protect the hotels guests. - DONE
Objective 2 is to investigate any dubious activities. - FAILED

Battle Formation
  • Captains are guarding the inside of the building. (Flag Zone)
  • Shamal is keeping watch on the roof.
  • Rookies are guarding the perimeter close to the building. (Red Zone)
  • What's left of the knights are (presumably) patrolling the surrounding area. (Blue Zone)
    To be presumed from episode progress to be a wide span.

Battle Synopsis
  • Shamal detects the incoming drones.
  • Blue Zone Knights dispatch them.
  • The doctor contacts Unknown force.
    Dr-Force is now under their control.
  • Drones go into fly-by-wire mode. (hard even for knights)
  • Large force is teleported in Red's perimeter. (detected by Caro)
  • Some others slip through Vita's attack.
    Most drones now converge on Red perimeter, seamlessly ignoring/dodging Blue's Knights.
  • Red perimeter is under heavy assault. Vita is expected as reinforcements.
    (long wait presumed by Tea - short wait in truth)
  • Decision to counter force by force - tactics switch from defencive to attack.
    Defensive tactics is presumably training tactics.
  • Maneuver Saburu (decoy) x Cross-Fire (trump-card) is decided upon.
  • Drones destroyed (but a stray shot flies almost seriously injuring Subaru)
    The shot is among the last fired, to be presumed Subaru was distracted by currently trashed drones.
  • Shot stopped by Vita, Tea sent to guard the rear. (+1 Vita Scolding)
  • Before or after some of the events above, using the cover of chaos, the smuggled goods are stolen from the hotel.

Battle Analysis
  • Blue -- Knights positioned in Blue zone are too far front. They're objective couldn't have been anything but scouting from a military perspective, which considering they're numbers is ridiculous. They fail to stop the assault and to fall back to the Red zone to provide support.

    But this is more a planing error. They should have falln back to a closer-to-rookies perimeter in the first place, it would also have been easier to defend and reinforce. The only real failure were how they allowed some drones in their immediate vicinity to get away.

  • Red -- Faced with almost overwhelming force the mission can only be described as a success. The force was destroyed before Vita reinforced them. There was only one operational accident, attributed to Tea.

  • Flag Team -- Failed to assist the Red team in a dire situation, failed to detect smuggling when the situation clearly hinted there was something in the hotel. Failed to stop the stealing of smuggled goods, failure to offer battle coordination and control when it was clearly needed.

    From scenes at the ending of the battle we can deduce: failed to get battle ready, failed to disperse and or search the area in any way. Simply put, they TOTALY FAILED in all respects.
Act 8 - Dual-Training.

Analysis
Taking note to past mistakes and her own worth Tea is trying to improve both her abilities and the range of her abilities, in this respect training with Subaru for better team-work and coordination. Presumably it goes well ~

Normal training goes as usual, presumably the rookies are thought how to improve their current abilities and how to perform in a generic formation. Hence each is taught and trained individually and not working with the others. Understandably this, while not forming good-team work between them allows them to progress at their own pace. This does not appear as military standard, also we can presume it's Nanoha's decision. The cons to this range from things like Not teaching them how to surpass each others limitation to Not forming a good bond of trust and understanding of abilities. (the former is bad for planing)

The rookies are presumably only monitored during training as such they're free of anything the rest of the time ~ while still being on call 24/7.
~ ~ ~


Mock~Battle
What was expected. -- The trainees were to fight with one of the Commanders, but its more target practice for their training (as in the training given to them by Nanoha & Co) There was no defeat or injure Captain to win ~ they merely were suppose to clash with her.

Analysis

The night before the battle commences Tea & (Subaru convinced by Tea) decide to use their own personal training rather then Nanoha's in the battle. The intention was most likely to impress Nanoha, Subaru's motives are questionable, but Teanna's were most likely to force the training to to new levels. (note - mission accomplished, in a sense)

During the mock-battle they do exactly this.
Nanoha is not pleasantly surprised, and it would appear the observers (Fate and Co) neither.

The strategy employed by Subaru & Teanna can be considered successful, but it is has not directly given them the results they wished for. More-over Nanoha is disappointed.

Tactic Analysis - The tactic basically focuses on utilising as much of their strengths as much as possible. There is only one flaw, and that is the decisive blow. It is so romantic that it's silly, if only Teanna would use the decoy to secure a clear shot to Nanoha's back it would have been perfect. Or preferably to avoid friendly fire, firing from Subaru's left (semi-blank spot for Nanoha) form lower ground to Nanoha, this would have been ideal for a regroup as well.

But one mistake is one two many, as it's enough to get you killed, so Nanoha's accusation of recklessness are justified.

Nanoha
  • Failed to stop the situation. (I mean it as in, say: "Stand down Teanna.")
  • Enforce military protocol.
  • Stop the situation properly.
    Call forth ranks/Give the recruit a reminder of protocol.
  • Failed to take precautions for the use of weaponry in the exercise.

Tea
  • Failed to recognise military protocol
  • Endangered her commanding officer, her partner and herself in a training operation.
  • Failed to stand down.
  • Failed to follow the proceedings of the training exercise.
  • Is guilty of mutiny. Although since Nanoha never gave the order to stand down she is not guilty because for pointing her guns at her ~ but because of her actions outside the training course.
As it stands they are both failures, and should be both dropped out of the military core. But disregarding military standards to the point of Nanoha's imposed level ~ Tea is clearly the one to blame for the Mock~Battle incident.
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Old 2007-06-05, 12:57   Link #18
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Okay, force structure of the TSAB.

We know (from the manga) that "everybody" starts off in the Ground Forces. This is not actually true - certainly, Nanoha and Fate didn't start there - but we can assume that it's the normal point of entry for an enlistee.

So what do we know about them? What we've seen isn't all that impressive. Whatever unit size they're constituted as (I've seen battalions in the fansub, but I don't trust it to be accurate for things like that), they don't actually have all that much magical potential - Nakajima's unit was seriously augmented by Nanoha, Fate, and Hayate swinging by while on vacation.

This makes sense if you take into account that mages who reach A rank (often? always?) move into the Air Forces. So we would expect the Ground Forces to include a lot of trainees and low-potential mages. They're not that mobile. We can assume they have access to mechanized transport and possibly air transport, but we haven't actually seen anything like an APC. They're not the mages that get deployed to extra-dimensional work, anyway...

So your average officer in the Ground Forces can be assumed to have been promoted because of seniority, not pure potential; or else they're just an odd duck who refused transfer into the Air Forces.

The Air Forces are... well, we don't really know. About all that we know about these guys is that they can fly, and that they aren't fast-responders - they relieved Nakajima at the airport disaster only after Hayate and friends had essentially taken care of everything. We can presume that they're generally better-equipped and more powerful fighting formations than the Ground Forces. We can also assume they're not as numerous (just not that many mages at that rank), and that their command structure is a bit ponderous - if they were really quick on the draw, Hayate wouldn't have been impelled to set up her little Delta Force on the side. ;p

Finally, we have the enforcers. These guys are an odd little category - they seem to be the folks who get deployed externally, kind of like Marines in a way, but with more of an emphasis on individual action than anything you'd find in a modern military unit. There's a wide range of abilities here - you get crowds of them finished off by Precia and they don't even slow down the knights in A's, but on the other hand, Chrono and Fate are both enforcers, so presumably it's not totally unknown for them to have access to a few big guns. Can't say much more about 'em...

So yeah, Hayate's Div 6 is definitely filling the niche of a special-forces unit. We can assume that, because they're so -bad- at the whole training aspect, that there aren't actually any other special forces units in the TSAB hierarchy.
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Old 2007-06-05, 13:25   Link #19
Avatar_notADV
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Japanese military, Cats, remember? "you just screwed up bad, trainee, I'm gonna hit you" is not frowned upon. Even the Signum Punch is within normal discipline.

We have to place Div 6's performance in light of the context - that is to say, in a 26-episode anime series. ;p Thus, having the opponents show up and do something, succeed (to show that they're not total incompetents, and thus dangerous enemies), and get away (so that we don't have a 13-ep series!) is totally understandable.

Given the rather huge deficiencies in intelligence that they're suffering under (total lack of knowledge about enemy intentions, force estimates, capabilities other than "yeah, okay, we've seen three types of drone", whereas same enemy can keep them under observation during action...), it's hardly a surprise that they're not acting in an optimal fashion anyway.

As far as the hotel, an actual military action would have been "clear the hotel, call in reinforcements". With the restriction of not suspending the auction or alerting civilians to incoming trouble, they did okay - they got diverted by the diversion because, well, what have they been DOING but fighting drones? Good thinking on behalf of the opposition, plus absolutely superior intelligence, and a very limited objective that was -not- what Div 6 was there to prevent, allowed a success there.

As far as the training problems go, absolutely, the objectives of the training exercises should have been stated up front. If it's necessary to take it slow and break in the trainees to prevent them from suffering physical harm, you -freaking tell them that-. Hell, Nanoha even has this nifty anecdote about how, despite her Ace of Aces and S+ and aura of absolute awesomeness, pushing it too hard almost killed HER, and hey won't you -look- at the scar! This, I think, is a failure caused by narrative demands, which is still kind of weak on behalf of the writers, but understandable - they can't "surprise" the viewer with the whole "Nanoha got shot up" thing if they explain it in advance. But still, poor form.

Tea's whole freaking out... well, I'll say going in that Tea's baggage is her own damn problem. But with modern special forces training, that shouldn't be any sort of problem whatsoever; NOBODY who gets selected for SEAL training thinks that they're average, it's part of the mentality you're instilling into the trainees. Nanoha, well, she doesn't know that, and she ought to - she's certainly presented as someone who's done her goddamned homework when it comes to training, and even if the TSA's totally ignorant on how to do this stuff, she happens to be "really good friends" with the world's greatest expert on the most comprehensive archives in existence. Presumably Yuuno could have dug up some US Army special forces training manuals, or someone else's equivalents; even if he didn't do so on his own accord as an excuse to drop in on Nanoha... ;p

But Nanoha obviously hasn't read anything on the topic, so either she's haring off in a completely different direction out of sheer pig-headedness, or we've run into a limitation of information the writers didn't have. I vote (b) here. They can't make Nanoha know something they don't know themselves, and let's be honest, the ins and outs of military training in a special forces unit are not a topic of general interest or something you'd find a lot of Japanese literature addressing!

However, the resolution was pure Nanoha - "you're not listening to me, so I shall pwn you until you shut up and listen for a second!" And it worked, again. ;p (I personally would have been happier with a discussion with everyone there, if only so Tea could say "wait, wait, who in here has been in a fight with Nanoha?!" and seen the hands go up...)
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Old 2007-06-05, 15:27   Link #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
We know (from the manga) that "everybody" starts off in the Ground Forces. This is not actually true - certainly, Nanoha and Fate didn't start there - but we can assume that it's the normal point of entry for an enlistee.
Actually, this is not true. I believe Teana tried to go for Officer training first, then Air Forces.
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