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Old 2007-06-05, 16:12   Link #21
Avatar_notADV
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Hey, I'm just quoting Elio and his little-boy understanding of the military that we see a few years ago, from the manga. (Basically "the Ground Forces are where you start, and they're part of the team too even if you're better than they are" mantra.) And since Subaru definitely started off with the ground-pounders, and Tea and Subaru were partnered all through training, right up until Nanoha shanghaied them... Of course, once they finished their grunt training, had they not signed up with Div 6, they may have indeed gone their separate ways immediately.

Officer training is academy-type work in the real world. We don't know how much theoretical work trainees get as a matter of course - I mean, obviously they need a lot more math than the average grunt, given the relationship between math and Mid magic - but there's no telling whether that extends to battle formations or logistics and supply or leadership.

Actually, if I might digress for a moment, it's entirely possible that a lot of 20th century military concepts might not function properly in the context of the Mid armed forces. I mean, what's a battle line to forces that can insert from space and freakin' -teleport-? Certainly the ground forces composition makes more sense if you think of them as ground-holders rather than a mobile unit... "Hold this facility no matter what" types. Rather more horrifyingly, if you can sneak a 10-year-old girl into the enemy's rear area and then she whips out a device and does her best Nanoha impression, that's gonna be -hell- on the idea of limiting civilian casualties in a conflict...

Of course, we don't know that there IS a conflict per se. Does Mid have any unfriendly neighbors? What are the "borders" of an inter-dimensional empire, anyway? It's entirely possible that they've just never run into the kind of organized resistance that has made them use military magic on a total-war scale. We can assume that they don't do so regularly, or lately, given a few clues (you don't act like the JSDF if you get shot at a lot), but the history's a blank so far.
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Old 2007-06-05, 23:17   Link #22
aldw
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The Imperial Forces of Star Wars might be a good reference point for comparison.
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Old 2007-06-06, 03:39   Link #23
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I disagree. The Imperials have a completely opposite personnel issue - they have a bunch of cloned stormtroopers who are essentially disposable, and the valuable stuff is the equipment. TSAB can't treat its troops like that, because they're NOT something they can just pull out of a vat - Nanoha and friends represent priceless, irreplaceable assets (and, potentially, hideously dangerous opposition forces!)

Of course, in StrikerS, we have a plot where they seem to be pulling mages out of vats. I've already expressed an opinion that this might be reflective of TSAB involvement, which would lead to truly delicious drama. But this isn't the thread to speculate on that...
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Old 2007-06-06, 07:51   Link #24
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
I disagree. The Imperials have a completely opposite personnel issue - they have a bunch of cloned stormtroopers who are essentially disposable, and the valuable stuff is the equipment. TSAB can't treat its troops like that, because they're NOT something they can just pull out of a vat - Nanoha and friends represent priceless, irreplaceable assets (and, potentially, hideously dangerous opposition forces!)
Stormtroopers aren't clones, they're human recources recruited.... well, drafted from normal planets. Palpatine banned cloning after the clone wars ended.

Of course, this doesn't dispute your disposabillity argument as they drafted human males from every planet under their juristiction without much limits.
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Old 2007-06-06, 08:14   Link #25
felix
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No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topicless
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Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV
Japanese military, Cats, remember? "you just screwed up bad, trainee, I'm gonna hit you" is not frowned upon. Even the Signum Punch is within normal discipline.
So ~ this was never portrayed as japanese military. Not like I know anything about it, but I do imagine Nano-Military is more in between the middle ground of mass-recruits & special forces.

Judging from those mages in episode one, the training seems to be ~ umm.. the make-you-rough, but can't afford you to quit. If it was more japanese-military (or any other normal one) I would expect them to salute and code-speak at every *bip* out of Hayate's mouth ~ And yet they are so casual.

It's more like the Nano-Military is trained more as an police force then anything.
The general discipline and combat tactics support this ~

- - - -
Signum, Vita & Co should be the only ones with the l33tish training.
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Old 2007-06-06, 08:29   Link #26
Keroko
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No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topicless
Gur... this is one of the reasons why I hate Attack of the Clones...

Anyway, take it from a heavy Star Wars fan like me that stormtroopers are not clones. I can dig up mountains of proof if you like.

Anyway, the comparison with the SW Imperial Millitary is not a bad thing, as they seem to mix up naval and ground force ranks as well.
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Old 2007-06-06, 08:42   Link #27
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
No they are mostly a clone army.
That's why they all sound the same. //end-off-topiclessSo ~ this was never portrayed as japanese military. Not like I know anything about it, but I do imagine Nano-Military is more in between the middle ground of mass-recruits & special forces.

Judging from those mages in episode one, the training seems to be ~ umm.. the make-you-rough, but can't afford you to quit. If it was more japanese-military (or any other normal one) I would expect them to salute and code-speak at every *bip* out of Hayate's mouth ~ And yet they are so casual.

It's more like the Nano-Military is trained more as an police force then anything.
The general discipline and combat tactics support this ~

- - - -
Signum, Vita & Co should be the only ones with the l33tish training.
I have had a LTC as an immediate superior before (I was serving as a Clerk at that time), and the office environment was rather casual. Fresh out of basic training at that time, I was basically like a fish out of the water (since prior to my first actual assignment, the highest rank I ever got to personally interact with was a Lieutenant).

Saluting him with "God-stricken" fear while reporting to him in the office on the first day, he basically went, "Ah, forget all that crap." and more or less told me to be more relaxed.

Not all army camps here are like that, of course. I was rather fortunate in that it was not a combat/training camp, but an administrative camp, and a HQ at that, so the concentration of LTCs was "unusually" high.

The rationale of my "Boss" was that it was just a waste of time for men to salute their superiors in the office everyday, and a waste of his time to salute back as well. I still address him as "Sir" of course, since there is still a need to establish and reinforce military discipline.

When I transferred to other vocations, it was more or less the same. The relationship between the men and their immediate superiors is always more "relaxed" than between men and "external" superiors. Makes sense really.

Add to the fact that Hayate is 19 years old, and her "laid-back" behaviour is not really that far-fetched. Realistic even. What will really determine Hayate's competence though, are her reactions to "bad events".

The only thing that bugs me about Hayate is her rank. In the real world, most people would be lucky to be a Captain at 19, let alone a LTC. Ah well, this is the TSAB, and Hayate did say that her Ancient Belken skills were factors in her insanely fast promotions.

Hayate was a Captain at age 15... so she basically went on to Major, then LTC in four years. Man, I hope she saved a lot of orphans during those years. At this rate, she will achieve General at a younger age than Chrono achieved Admiral.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-06-06, 09:06   Link #28
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In Singapore Armed Forces speak, Subaru and Tia were performing unsafe and unauthorised manuvers during a routine training session and Nanoha called a safety time for a cease of training. Subaru was made to sit by the side and reflect on her action while Nanoha proceeded to tekan (slang for punish with intense physical training) Tia with her own medicine.

I would like to see a report on that...

AND SALUTING A NON-COMMISSIONED OFFICER WOULD GET YOU EXTRA DUTIES. Get that right, n00bs.
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Old 2007-06-06, 10:18   Link #29
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Well, that's the sort of thing I'm talking about. There's certain ways that Div 6 is like it is because of the characters involved - simply put, you can't make Nanoha or Fate or Hayate into a martinet without destroying their characters. Vita is a bit more picky on things like that, so they have her ask Nanoha "wait, what about all that crap?" and Nanoha comes back with the "if they have time to salute, I'm not working them hard enough" answer. VERY like Nanoha. ;p

But in other ways, it's set up like the Japanese military because, well, that's what the writers know. Disaster relief and law enforcement, not "eternally vigilant against an enemy", all that jazz. It -should- be like a special forces unit (and the relaxed discipline is a lot like that too), and it is in ways that the writers need it to be in order for their plot to work, but it's not consistently like it in ways that it would be if the writers were familiar with special forces training (and worried about keeping that consistent, which they probably aren't. ;p)

The -good- thing about Hayate's rank, weird as it is, is that if we assume that it's largely related to her mage rank, we can assume that it's hit a plateau; it's not unreasonable that Hayate would get better from when SHE was a captain, but it's unlikely that her power's going to continue going up and up and up, especially now that she's more or less a staff puke these days. ;p With her spending her days doing the paperwork, the political maneuvering, and not making things go boom interestingly, we can assume that SS is as high as she's going to go for quite a while (!) and that they're going to leave her at that rank for ages'n'ages.

Or, assuming that she isn't in Div 6 forever, she might get transferred to another arm where rank isn't a big deal - the enforcers seem to be a little less military in that respect. On the other hand, there's still going to be the question of how much they can trust Hayate, with her squad of Velkan buddies; they can't just slap a limiter on her if she'd be operating independently...

Hayate having that limiter on her is interesting. It's not just "okay, we don't like people being over AAA" - they rank her all the way down to A, which puts her in the "able to fly" range but not any better than, say, the crowds of enforcers who get wiped in seasons 1 and 2. Subtle message by the high command that she shouldn't be leading from the front? Plot device to keep Nanoha up on the screen more? Your call. ;p
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Old 2007-06-07, 12:20   Link #30
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I'm not sure how to phrase this question, but...

I'm just wondering why all the privates have what appear to be pretty much the same kind of device. Is it that most of them prefer the standard? Or do you not get a custom device until a certain rank? And if so, that rank must be pretty low, seeing as how Tea and Subaru had custom ones.
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Old 2007-06-07, 12:26   Link #31
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Originally Posted by Zemyla View Post
I'm not sure how to phrase this question, but...

I'm just wondering why all the privates have what appear to be pretty much the same kind of device. Is it that most of them prefer the standard? Or do you not get a custom device until a certain rank? And if so, that rank must be pretty low, seeing as how Tea and Subaru had custom ones.
Custom devices are likely to be simply uncommon. Subaru inherited hers and Teana built one herself because she wanted to use a cartridge system. I believe the standard devices they could've used were simple staffs and spears. I believe it was said in the manga that Subaru and Teana were the only ones of their training group to use custom devices.
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Old 2007-06-07, 12:30   Link #32
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Originally Posted by Zemyla View Post
I'm not sure how to phrase this question, but...

I'm just wondering why all the privates have what appear to be pretty much the same kind of device. Is it that most of them prefer the standard? Or do you not get a custom device until a certain rank? And if so, that rank must be pretty low, seeing as how Tea and Subaru had custom ones.
I'm assuming it's standardization, like for most militaries. However, the TSAB seems more lax in the acceptance of custom devices. I'm assuming this is because MOST people don't know how to make their own devices, or simply don't care, and as such the TSAB provides standard issue staves (or for Belka users, spears). for most of the trainees, but lets custom device users train with their own designs, as is the case with Subaru and Teana. Also, the training given to Subaru and Teana in A's to StrikerS indicates that in some sense, custom device users are given slightly modified regiments to better augment their magic style. Afterall, why waste a person's aptitude in a certain specialty by diluting them into generalists?
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Old 2007-06-07, 12:34   Link #33
felix
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It was also in the anime.
In short Tea and Suba-chan are very weird ~ as far as standards go.

Tea's monologue in 6 I think, where she analyses the team and portrays them as l33ts is very deceiving.
I think she's being very ~ umm professional ~ in it, to put it bluntly.

If she was as she described herself ~ normal ~ she would probably go: "Oh SHI-" at every movement Nano & Fate made.


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I think the reasoning is that they are not weapons ~ well sorta ~ and more amplifiers for the cadets ability.
In other words the cadets are the weapons themselves whatever else they want to use is legit.
There's probably some family influence in this respect ~
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Old 2007-06-07, 12:50   Link #34
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Good question. Evidence suggests that it's not a fixed rank or anything - Chrono, who ranked higher than Nanoha or Fate in S1 and S2, was still using the standard-issue S2U storage device. Tea and Subaru and Elio had custom devices going into training. Probably, it's a personal-choice thing - you get a standard-issue device unless you have one already, in which case it's okay to keep using it. (Dunno about Caro, but she wasn't in training before Div 6, so maybe she didn't have a device at all?)
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Old 2007-06-07, 12:55   Link #35
felix
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Caro's device looks standard ~ well I can't imagine much variation on it. Most likely they thought making her device look different would look umm ~ forced, like Nano-Squad was some kind of super here league ~ bah xP ( her device is enhanced however )
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Old 2007-06-07, 17:01   Link #36
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Actually, if we're talking about appearances, it looks just like what Lutecia's using. Probably not a coincidence, given that we know about precisely two summoners and that they both have that kind of setup...
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Old 2007-06-08, 16:04   Link #37
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Random question:

What exactly is Saint Church a church of? What faith do they have?

I'm wondering if there's some extra information in a fanbook or something.
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Old 2007-06-08, 19:00   Link #38
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Originally Posted by dkellis View Post
Random question:
What exactly is Saint Church a church of? What faith do they have?
I'm wondering if there's some extra information in a fanbook or something.
Why does the Saint Church remind me of a monastery?
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Old 2007-06-08, 19:25   Link #39
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They are probably religious brotherhood kind of organization with the knight as their offense power (in the past).Similar to medieval Britain(with their lords and such)

I wonder whether all velkan also has the same belief in the past.
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Old 2007-06-08, 19:31   Link #40
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I dunno...They're self-governed, they don't seem all that large, but they have their share of influence and power.

I'm thinking it's like the Vatican.
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