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Old 2007-06-02, 15:08   Link #261
Keroko
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
If you mean the healing circle around Nanoha then that doesn't count, since he was making a circle who auto-casted a spell not casting the spell. Or at least the circle came before the spell, regardless of where it was (under him etc)
No no no, I meant the one he was casting after the barrier came down. There was no circle then.

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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
I'm not familiar with your second reference. Anime or manga?!
A's episode 8, when he's in the library surounded by floating books.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar_notADV View Post
A big part of the problem with analyzing attacks thrown in Nanoha is that, basically, the -vast- majority of them aren't intended to be lethal. Nanoha's generally trying to get people to sit still and listen, not waste them; for Fate, Nanoha was just in the way, not her actual target. The knights were specifically going around not actually killing people. We can't be -sure- that Reinforce 1 was actually going all-out - there's a big difference between "seal Fate in a world specifically designed to make her happy" and "kill them all". So far the drones, presumably lethal, haven't even singed anybody. So the number of confirmed, "I am trying to kill you" attacks against human personnel so far is -one-, whatever hit Nanoha back when, and we don't even really know that for sure. Hell, even Precia didn't kill anyone.

So frankly, we don't have any way to judge what a full-power you-gonna-die hit looks like, because we haven't seen any of them hit somebody. We might have if Vita didn't cover Subaru from Teana's stray shot - presumably Tea is going all-out to pop drones - but I'm just as glad that Subaru didn't provide live-fire tests for the jacket. ;p

We can safely conclude that the barrier jackets do provide significant defense against things which are purely physical damage (getting blown through a wall). We can conclude that they provide at least some level of magical defense against big-ass incoming (Nanoha's Starlight Breaker), though we don't know how well they'd fare on their own against a killer shot. We do know that it's possible to get injured through the jacket by a sufficiently powerful attack, even if the jacket isn't itself damaged. We do know that Nanoha got practically killed by an attack that left her jacket mostly intact, though we have reason to suspect that her magical problems may have interfered with its function. We also know that Fate's barrier jacket did her zero good against Precia, though it's always possible that Precia was just hitting Fate -that hard-.

We don't have enough data to conclude anything about "magical" or "physical" contents of attacks, save that some attacks have a definite "physical" component that can punch through an AMF easily (Vita's balls, Zafira's spears, Nanoha's Stardust Fall, Fate's lightning.) Assuming that the flying drones have some AMF, and that Nanoha can bust them without even turning off her barrier, we can imply that (a) Nanoha kicks that much ass, (b) she can do a Variable Shot-type effect, (c) that her bright and shiny attacks aren't purely magical, or (d) she's the title character and the writers aren't being consistent. Your call.
Lack of data is a pain in the rear, so I'd go with d.

Funny how fans always read more in an anime then the creators intend. Of course, it wouldn't be this much fin if we didn't.
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Old 2007-06-02, 15:41   Link #262
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
A's episode 8, when he's in the library surounded by floating books.
In episode 7 when they were discussing in the library about the books (and Crono-suke ) Yuuno said he had prepared some searching magic. If he could do it without anything then what would be the point of preparing something.

But I checked back with episode 7~
Let me show you why you didn't see the circle in Ep8:
Spoiler for Surprise:


Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
No no no, I meant the one he was casting after the barrier came down. There was no circle then.
You mean when he's doing something like...
Spoiler for this:


I can give you complete proof, but I can give you a way he could be doing it.

Note the image above, his circle color is green as is the light of the orb.
Since it's just a simple healing spell he could be doing a small circle in his hand. the orb's glow would make it invisible.

We have seen this kind of thing in the series,
Here's a reference of circle in the hand from season one:


..and it's even the right size
Of course even if it's the posibility it's an ability and not a spell (as little to no math involved) it still does not disprove the circle theory.
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Old 2007-06-02, 16:53   Link #263
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
In episode 7 when they were discussing in the library about the books (and Crono-suke ) Yuuno said he had prepared some searching magic. If he could do it without anything then what would be the point of preparing something.

But I checked back with episode 7~
Let me show you why you didn't see the circle in Ep8:
Spoiler for Surprise:




You mean when he's doing something like...
Spoiler for this:


I can give you complete proof, but I can give you a way he could be doing it.

Note the image above, his circle color is green as is the light of the orb.
Since it's just a simple healing spell he could be doing a small circle in his hand. the orb's glow would make it invisible.

We have seen this kind of thing in the series,
Here's a reference of circle in the hand from season one:


..and it's even the right size
Of course even if it's the posibility it's an ability and not a spell (as little to no math involved) it still does not disprove the circle theory.
I'd give the first one, but for the second one on healing, I'm just as justified to say that there is no circle per se as you are justified to say that it was masked.

Mind if you could help us check if he transforms using a circle? The understanding to date was that he is confirmed to have no circle while transforming, but then again we might miss it. But I'm pretty sure he does not.
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Old 2007-06-02, 17:03   Link #264
Keroko
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Hmm, he used one in episode 8 during his first transformation, but at the end of the same episode he transforms again, this time without one.
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Old 2007-06-02, 17:05   Link #265
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Keroko View Post
Hmm, he used one in episode 8 during his first transformation, but at the end of the same episode he transforms again, this time without one.
Lazy animation or actual evidence?
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Old 2007-06-02, 17:06   Link #266
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Arguable, the circle with the first transformation is more like a disc of light, so calling it a magic circle can be questioned.
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Old 2007-06-02, 17:14   Link #267
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I'm just saying that the animation for the series is so inconsistant that it's hard to get any solid evidence about anything from it.
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Old 2007-06-03, 01:21   Link #268
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
I'd give the first one, but for the second one on healing, I'm just as justified to say that there is no circle per se as you are justified to say that it was masked.
Counter this,
If the math occurs in the linker-core then why is it when Shamal drained Nanoha's linker-core the SB did not dispel. Presuming the math occurs in the linker-core the spell should have been uncontrollable at that state. And also, why was it hard to do the spell with a perfectly intact linker-core but a broken raging heart, but it wasn't as effected as with a broken linker core.


Some other thoughts presuming the theory holds some ground~
AMF
Why is it that AMF doesn't effect the linker-core, or a mage's reserve in any way.

A possible theory would be: if the magic in the show is close to what I described earlier, a form of space-manipulation, then the AMF isn't something that cancels magic but more like interference. Thus math in the AMF doesn't affect the mana as it were, but the math. This would explain why Erio's device turned off on him, why 2-layered bullets work (interference can only interfere in the layer above), why mages mana reserves and linker-cores aren't effected by the AMF in any serious way.

Book of the Night Sky
Here's a little thought on it's origin,
If we were to create a device for the wondering scholar what would it need to do?
Well we wouldn't need a sword or some normal device, so ideally we would want a device that can help with his research, and what better way to do this then a device to create devices.

In other words, the idea behind the book of darkness's design might be to act as a device that creates temporary devices. Hence all of its special uber-size spells.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meophist
I'm just saying that the animation for the series is so inconsistant that it's hard to get any solid evidence about anything from it.
Quote For Truth
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Old 2007-06-03, 06:58   Link #269
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Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Counter this,
If the math occurs in the linker-core then why is it when Shamal drained Nanoha's linker-core the SB did not dispel. Presuming the math occurs in the linker-core the spell should have been uncontrollable at that state. And also, why was it hard to do the spell with a perfectly intact linker-core but a broken raging heart, but it wasn't as effected as with a broken linker core.
Erm... I never said anything about the maths being in the core. (Did I? Can't remember... ) What I did say was that the Linker Core has spell data in it which when stolen is copied into the YnS. This thread discussed earlier from manga references about the circle and devices assisting calculation, but its up to the mage to either work it out in her mind or "punch in the numbers" figuratively speaking.

SB didn't dispell for it needed the LC to fire the spell, not charge it, so just a small spark was needed. But with RH unstable, and Nanoha's LC being screwed, it took quite a bit to finish it. But yeah, that scene, Nanoha had a bit of hero armor on to finish casting IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post

Some other thoughts presuming the theory holds some ground~
AMF
Why is it that AMF doesn't effect the linker-core, or a mage's reserve in any way.

A possible theory would be: if the magic in the show is close to what I described earlier, a form of space-manipulation, then the AMF isn't something that cancels magic but more like interference. Thus math in the AMF doesn't affect the mana as it were, but the math. This would explain why Erio's device turned off on him, why 2-layered bullets work (interference can only interfere in the layer above), why mages mana reserves and linker-cores aren't effected by the AMF in any serious way.

Book of the Night Sky
Here's a little thought on it's origin,
If we were to create a device for the wondering scholar what would it need to do?
Well we wouldn't need a sword or some normal device, so ideally we would want a device that can help with his research, and what better way to do this then a device to create devices.

In other words, the idea behind the book of darkness's design might be to act as a device that creates temporary devices. Hence all of its special uber-size spells.


Quote For Truth
On your first point, that has been agreed upon earlier in the thread to be just that, but Keroko (or was it USB?) pointed out that one should not confuse mana as EM waves but rather interferrence with energy waves of mana instead.

I don't see the link in your second point here, or get what you are trying to say. Care to elaborate? I think this has not been covered in the thread before.
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Old 2007-06-03, 07:06   Link #270
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
I don't see the link in your second point here, or get what you are trying to say. Care to elaborate? I think this has not been covered in the thread before.
What I was trying to say was: the ToNS is not designed to create huge attacks but very powerful circles (note size is not a measurement for circles), hence a scholar's tool as was mentioned it was initially intended for.
____________
I'll elaborate on the first part of you post later when I have some time...
Takes some time to formulate.
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Old 2007-06-03, 07:10   Link #271
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Book of the Night Sky
Here's a little thought on it's origin,
If we were to create a device for the wondering scholar what would it need to do?
Well we wouldn't need a sword or some normal device, so ideally we would want a device that can help with his research, and what better way to do this then a device to create devices.

In other words, the idea behind the book of darkness's design might be to act as a device that creates temporary devices. Hence all of its special uber-size spells.[/INDENT]

Quote For Truth
Actually, a device for a wondering scholar would be a device that stores data, like, well, like a book.

I don't see the point in a device creating devices if all you need is the data of a spell for it to work. You'd need a device capable of recording, analysing and storing that data.
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Old 2007-06-03, 07:14   Link #272
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What's the point of knowing a spell if you can't cast it?! O.o
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Old 2007-06-03, 07:20   Link #273
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What's the point of knowing a spell if you can't cast it?! O.o
Erm... the Book is considered to be a Storage Device, with Swertkreuz the Armed Device and Rein the Unison Device, of which the latter 2 were created by Hayate later, so by right the original purpose of the Book was as a Storage Device storing stuff. But as we can see from Chrono's SDs even an SD can cast spells, though I do agree that it's probably optimized in a way that it could cast any spell, with the OS compatible with all known magic systems and maybe some other new ones too.

EDIT: It seems like different posters have interpreted the same question differently.
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Old 2007-06-03, 07:20   Link #274
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
What's the point of knowing a spell if you can't cast it?! O.o
1) who says you cant cast spells that are unknown? all the books does is to store the right spell incantations so you can cast it...(its much more complex than that so im just dumbing it down) ~

2) hayate is able to find the right spells for the right situations...maybe if you think about it she can flick through the whole book and find the needed spells in a blink of an eye (kinda like yuuno's skill but here its inbuilt into the program...) ~ its like that time where she needed to freeze the whole area...she would be thinking "i need a freezing spell" and voila the book automatically opens at the right page ready for the spell to be cast
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Old 2007-06-03, 07:40   Link #275
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What's the point of knowing a spell if you can't cast it?! O.o
Nobody said you need that device to cast a spell, you just need a device (point-case, Nanoha casting cross-fire) a spell-book like device is a device, therefore it can cast spells. Any spell 'stored' in the spell-book is castable because, hey, the spell-book is a device.

Of course, it won't be as easy as Yami no Sho, but then again Yami no Sho is a Lost Logia.
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Old 2007-06-03, 13:49   Link #276
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Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Erm... I never said anything about the maths being in the core. (Did I? Can't remember... ) What I did say was that the Linker Core has spell data in it which when stolen is copied into the YnS. This thread discussed earlier from manga references about the circle and devices assisting calculation, but its up to the mage to either work it out in her mind or "punch in the numbers" figuratively speaking.
Let's see, I was thinking of this..

Two pages back..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cats View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kha View Post
Using canon terminology, we know that a person's magical energy (henceforward will be referred to by this poster as mana or MP) is manipulated and concentrated in his/her Linker Core.
When was it explicitly mentioned.
I think it's in his device.
  • Devices were described as to give the mage the ability to manipulate his magic ability. (season 1)
  • No mage has manipulated magic without having a device on him.
I don't recall linker cores being described as anything more then supposed magic batteries.
This was proposed earlier in the thread, as we discussed how devices worked. But Yuuno, Zafira and Arf's magic attacks made us re-think it, and assign it to the Linker Core instead. I know Zafira and Arf are bad examples in this case, but then Yuuno was a full whole-blooded mage w/o a Device for most of the Nanohaverse and yet he could sling chains, heal people and put up barriers capable to resisting cartridge powered attacks for a significant amount of time. And also, the LC is also a place where spells are stored (at least the biological copy, from YnS' ability to use spells of the other mages based on their LC data.)

You said it's "manipulated and concentrated" to his/her linker core so basically his/her device does nothing to aid the mage with the spell other then a delivery system.
(which doesn't effect how the spell performs or is created)

Note Chrono in A's. Why did he need the device if the data is only in the linker core?! ~ IMO the original information is in the device, and the technique is copied by the person's liker-core eventually~ The attack can be mimicked to a certain percentage, but more the technique then the attack. As far as this goes it's only a universal version of the attack and not the full attack. Note how Nanoha's cross-fire looks different then Tea's. Tea's was explosive but it was also more of a cannon ball attack and the projectiles didn't leave trails.

There are a few other counters to the info & manifestation in linker core theory. For one, the n00bies uniforms and weapons. How were they able to upgrade them if the linker core were the ones doing all the job?! - then there's Hayate's armor who is so Tome-of-Darkness-ish when she didn't see Rein at all before that. Then there's Raging Heart's behaviour in season 1, materialising the armor and weapon without Nanoha even thinking. There's also the cartridge system, why do you need to upgrade the weapon, couldn't they have just used the linker-cores to change the weapons?! Then there's the searching spell~ how born-genius do you have to be to come up with that kind of thing in an instant. T_T

----
Upsy.. just realised I derailed to the original topic we were debating ~ gomen ^__^
Back to the circle = temporary-device theory. Umm.. let's see~ hmm..
Ok I'm a little lost. Forgot were we were exactly ^^" What was the last counter?!

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Edit - a sec later..

Another explanation for Yuuno's healing spell.

Was it ever mentioned it is a healing spell.
In the zoomed out views there are white waves coming out of the center of the sphere who shares the color of his circles. Could it be he's just pumping out energy as it were~ (as in mana stuff)
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Old 2007-06-03, 18:28   Link #277
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I like to think of it as the devices being focusing and amplifying systems - the user is capable of doing (some) magic without them, but the magic becomes much more powerful and easier to use when the device is helping.

We know even young Nanoha could do a single Divine Shooter ball when she was training with RH, without RH even out. But when RH is helping her, she can move several of them with much greater dexterity. (Of course, that's the whole point in why she was training - and presumably the effort and exertion she put out when doing it solo meant that she could really rip when she had help!)

Similarly, Nanoha pasted Tea with Tea's Crossfire attack without RH's help. It's not surprising that a (limited to AA) mage with that kind of experience can pull off something that a B-ranked mage needs a device and a cartridge to fire...

(Of course, the question is, how much help can RH give without RH actually being "out"? We don't really know, but we don't see characters pulling off anything really powerful without their devices, so it's hard to tell.)

Yuuno HAD RH, but obviously he couldn't use it well, despite a generally good competence in a wide variety of support magic. We can infer from this one of two things - either devices have varying needs for magic intake, such that a weak mage cannot use a strong device to its full extent... or devices have specific compatibilities, and for some reason, Yuuno and RH just didn't get along. I'm leaning towards the former - even young Nanoha had a lot more raw power than RH, but the manga described RH as a serious drain on Nanoha's magical power until she got used to it. (None of this addresses WHY Yuuno had RH, a device way above the power he could use, on his person at the time. Maybe it was a family heirloom or something? Something he just happened to dig up? Ooh, plot potential.)

We don't have a lot of examples of specific device functionality, though, mostly because virtually all of the magic use we see is related to a one-caster, one-device standard. The addition of the cartridge system to Fate's and Nanoha's devices opened up a bunch of "this plus" type of attacks, and an additional form with additional attacks, but nothing TOO radically different from their former capabilities... more or less "what we used to do, but more of it!" Subaru's upgrade to the Mach Caliber was of a similar style - not really new abilities, at least that she's displayed, but what she had got a lot easier to use to a fuller extent.

Our biggest counter-example is the Durandal, which has a capability not present in Chrono's previous devices; but since we don't really see Chrono in action with it, we have no idea if it can also do the sort of attacks that he's displayed previously.

I'm leaving the Book of the Whatever out of this, because as a Lost Logia, it's clearly an outlier - we can expect it to have all sorts of capabilities that aren't present in other devices in general. How many of those features have survived to be enshrined into Rein Zwei, well, we don't really know yet...

What we cannot clearly explain is what happens when a mage uses someone else's device, or even if it's possible; nobody's lost one yet and they DON'T trade off. Nor do we know how familiar-type magic differs from normal device-assisted magic, though if I can speculate, it's entirely possible that the familiar's construction takes the place of the device - that is to say, that Arf and the Lieze twins can use magic like they had a device because they were made that way. (Zafira's a special case, because he was made in a completely different way, yet it's entirely possible that he's the Velka equivalent.)

And none of this can account for Yuuno's abilities in general, which are pretty weak in attack, but pretty wide otherwise. (Of course, the other characters have decent support magic too - Nanoha can heal and search, Fate can teleport between dimensions on her own power. But we see them in attack way more often, so that's how we think of them.) It's possible that Yuuno's spells rely much more on esoteric knowledge than pure horsepower, though - the fact that he's a scholar of magic means he can make his little AE86 outrun Nanoha's GTR on the Akina downhill, if I can mix an anime metaphor here.
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Old 2007-06-06, 11:14   Link #278
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Somewhat off-topic for the current conversation, but still kind of on-topic for the thread, I've been pondering a few questions about the Nanohaverse in general: about travel and the Infinite Library.

Basically, I'm not sure if there are any sources which explain these.

Firstly, travel: how does it work? When a battleship in orbit around Earth goes back to Midchilda, how does it go about doing it, and how long does it take?

How "scattered" are the various worlds?

Are there any "space stations" in realspace? In fact, other than realspace, what other kinds of spaces are there?

-

Secondly, the Infinite Library: is it really Infinite, or is it just Very Big?

What exactly is stored in the Infinite Library? What media are they in?

Where is the Infinite Library? Where can a person go from the normal "gravity works here" place to the free-floating Library?

Who can access the Infinite Library? This question is multi-faceted; I'm wondering both about military rank (for security clearance) and mage rank (for the floating around).

What can access the Infinite Library? Does a researcher have to physically enter the Infinite Library, or can he just look it up on a computer remotely?

I'm pretty much expecting to have to make up everything myself, but I'm wondering if there are any little tidbits in the extra materials that I missed.
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Old 2007-06-06, 12:31   Link #279
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We do know that the total travel time between Earth and Mid isn't too large, because in A's more than one character makes the commute. I'd be surprised if it couldn't be done in a single teleport, given that the Lieze twins (a) were working in the Infinite Library and (b) also playing Masked Villain. No telling how long it takes a vessel to make the same trip, as we don't know anything about the physics or Mid naval technology.

We know that the TSAB has at least one big ol' space station, not in Earth space. Dunno if it's actually "in" Mid or what the actual extent of Mid is anyway, though you'd expect them to have facilities at their home, no? ;p

Yuuno states that the Infinite Library basically contains everything - it's unclear whether that's "everything we've ever run across ever" or "everything PERIOD". We definitely know that the challenge involved in using the Library is to sift it for your desired information, which is apparently -really- hard. Yuuno happens to be good at this from practice. ;p He did have to be physically present for A's, but that doesn't preclude the possibility of remote access; however, given that Yuuno was doing the searching, as opposed to "Library staff", we have to presume that the data is not well-archived and well-sorted and that searching for something is going to involve a lot of on-the-fly stuff that isn't easily automated. It's not the sort of place where you can send an e-mail and they ship the data back to you tomorrow, or at least it wasn't during A's. It may be better now, of course.
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Old 2007-06-06, 12:37   Link #280
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There is only one kind of space.
InterDimensional thingy isn't exactly "space".

Travel is described as being similar to summoning ~ see Ep7 StrikerS

It is not specifically mentioned that it's a problem of difference, hence scattering as you put it but of access, think as in rough seas and cosmic storms ~ this is speculation of course

Yes, there are space stations in Dimensional-Space ~ see season 2
The infinite library is finite and contains books.
Normal or magical in nature ~ unknown.

It is described as a encyclopedia, more or less what is stored there is the history/knowledge of the universe ~ debatable on which universe is in context.

The infinite library is located where ever their HQ is ~ unknown.

It can be accessed by about anybody as long as the information requested is within their security clearance ~ presumably.
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