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Old 2007-06-07, 04:08   Link #261
Skane
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So what will be the Protoss' counter to Plague then?

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Old 2007-06-07, 04:13   Link #262
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Klashikari View Post
probably, except Photon Cannons (horribly fragile for their cost... well, of course, bunkers overall cost is higher but still XD)

but i'm still really concerned by EMP SW, due its costs and area of effect. (fortunately, it require research, phew), which can turn your defense like paper. (combining with siege tank, you can see big holes within minutes)

bleh, i shouldn't rant about this, at least, shields are upgradable and can suck a lot of punishment.
Strange... I have never seen Korean pro SC games where EMP is regularly employed against Protoss buildings, except in the cases of Nuking. Detection and Defense Matrix were the two uses I see more often. I guess pro Terran players worry more about protecting their tanks, since "making big holes within minutes" isn't so hard when you have siege tanks anyway?
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
So what will be the Protoss' counter to Plague then?

Well, I assume the Protoss shielding means it is better off spending the energy on Dark Swarm. Zerg units are fragile, so on offense keeping the Zerglings alive would probably be more cost effective. Once again, my views came from the Korean pro games that I've seen. Plague is still very good on Protoss units though, it is just that by the time you have defilers, taking out buildings aren't an issue any more at your tech level.
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Old 2007-06-07, 04:21   Link #263
Clarste
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I think it's a bit early to start speculating on counters to things which may not even be in the game. I mean, did you see what they did to the Protoss air units? It seems that they're not entirely adverse to scrapping all the details and starting from scratch. I wouldn't assume anything like Lockdown, EMP, or plague at this point, and even if they did exist who knows what bizarre new counters we'll get?

Anyway, I agree with the thematic idea that combat repairs are unreasonable for advanced protoss technology. The Terrans can get away with it because they're supposed to be the versatile, adaptable people who can jury-rig things back up to par. Protoss, not so much.

And yes, remember, the minerals and gas you're paying with the Protoss are the costs of the warp beacons. I don't even want to speculate how much the real things cost.
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Old 2007-06-07, 13:53   Link #264
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zerglings are beefed up even more now, think you are out power? why just let them die when you can turnthem into rolling mini deaths. I hope that they would make an air unit for zerg this time that can attack both air and ground without sucking so hard
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Old 2007-06-07, 14:59   Link #265
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by gummybear View Post
I hope that they would make an air unit for zerg this time that can attack both air and ground without sucking so hard
I enjoyed the Zerg air forces quite a bit, actually. You could use the guardians in combination with Hydras, or if you wanted to go full air, you'd use Mutalisks, Devourers, and Guardians. Guardians for ground attacks (obviously), potentially supported by mutalisks. For the air, the zerg really were the ultimate, in my opinion. Throwing pure devourers at people was a recipe for disaster. The trick was to throw in devourers, and once everyone was targeting them and their cooldown rate was nicely increased, you'd bring in the mutalisks. This also made sense given that devourers could soak up a lot more damage than the mutalisks.

Now as simple as the Protoss solution of throwing carriers at everything, but I like having to work to make a strategy successful. We're all different, though.
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Old 2007-06-07, 15:36   Link #266
Demongod86
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Originally Posted by Bahamut89 View Post
I think it's a bit early to start speculating on counters to things which may not even be in the game. I mean, did you see what they did to the Protoss air units? It seems that they're not entirely adverse to scrapping all the details and starting from scratch. I wouldn't assume anything like Lockdown, EMP, or plague at this point, and even if they did exist who knows what bizarre new counters we'll get?

Anyway, I agree with the thematic idea that combat repairs are unreasonable for advanced protoss technology. The Terrans can get away with it because they're supposed to be the versatile, adaptable people who can jury-rig things back up to par. Protoss, not so much.

And yes, remember, the minerals and gas you're paying with the Protoss are the costs of the warp beacons. I don't even want to speculate how much the real things cost.
If protoss technology is so advanced, how come the "jury-rigged" terran battlecruisers flat out overpower carriers? Why is it that it only takes two tomato cannons to take down a carrier or one EMP + 3 tomato cannons to take down the entire mothership? (If you watched the video, when the MS was outta shields, two tomato cannons put it into the deep red).

I wish there was some more thematics considered in the balancing. I mean if these protoss are supposed to have this huge amazing technology, how is it that terran battlecruisers give them such a run for their money? Sure, make it cost more, but FFS, ATM, terrain air is more cost-efficient than protoss!
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Old 2007-06-07, 16:10   Link #267
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
If protoss technology is so advanced, how come the "jury-rigged" terran battlecruisers flat out overpower carriers? Why is it that it only takes two tomato cannons to take down a carrier or one EMP + 3 tomato cannons to take down the entire mothership? (If you watched the video, when the MS was outta shields, two tomato cannons put it into the deep red).
If we are talking about motherships, one mothership can take out several battlecruisers in one go.

Keep in mind that for all intent and purposes, it is much harder to keep one's self protected than it is to destroy your enemy. This is designed so people wouldn't turtle too much. Sure, they can make it so capital ships take three minutes to go down under any sort of attack, which would be realistic in a Sci-Fi setting. In Starcraft though, if any unit can survive under heavy fire for more then 20 seconds then it would already be considered godly. Yamato canons are classified as spells, which means Mothership's Black Hole generator still overpowers it.
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Old 2007-06-07, 16:44   Link #268
Demongod86
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Actually VCV it doesn't. Watch the gameplay video again. The BCs hit the MS AS THEY WERE BEING SUCKED IN. But that's a pretty moot point. The fact is, you only need a vessel/3 BCs to instagib a mothership, and considering there can only be ONE MS compared to any number of vessels/BCs...well, you get where I'm going.
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Old 2007-06-07, 19:30   Link #269
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
Actually VCV it doesn't. Watch the gameplay video again. The BCs hit the MS AS THEY WERE BEING SUCKED IN. But that's a pretty moot point. The fact is, you only need a vessel/3 BCs to instagib a mothership, and considering there can only be ONE MS compared to any number of vessels/BCs...well, you get where I'm going.
Well, all that proves is that the Mothership isn't invincible. And that's not surprising, because unlike a battlecruiser a Mothership isn't designed for battle; it is a mobile city. Hence it might have impressive weapons, but its divergent role means it isn't as powerful as it could be had it been built solely for war.

That's also the reason for the build limit; you don't send cities into harms way unless you are desparate.
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Old 2007-06-07, 20:42   Link #270
Skane
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Then I guess we will never see the Mothership in actual competitive gameplay. Which I think is a flaw. There should be some incentive for a gamer to use it, other than for bragging rights.

As for using a Protoss airforce, I am not a fan of the Carriers. Too expensive, and far too long to build and replace. Not to mention the supply cost, an issue that is VERY headache-inducing for the Protoss race. I vastly prefer a mixture of Corsairs and Scouts. Far, FAR more efficient.

Cheers.
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Old 2007-06-07, 21:16   Link #271
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Originally Posted by Skane View Post
Then I guess we will never see the Mothership in actual competitive gameplay. Which I think is a flaw. There should be some incentive for a gamer to use it, other than for bragging rights.

As for using a Protoss airforce, I am not a fan of the Carriers. Too expensive, and far too long to build and replace. Not to mention the supply cost, an issue that is VERY headache-inducing for the Protoss race. I vastly prefer a mixture of Corsairs and Scouts. Far, FAR more efficient.

Cheers.
Well, right now we don't see nukes being used regularly in pro SC either, so the idea of a difficult-to-use superweapon isn't new. Then again, there are quite a few pro-gamer Protoss who use Carriers regularly; some commentators even believed too regularly. There are plenty of counters against carriers, but that certainly hasn't stopped anyone going there in the latest WWI.
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Old 2007-06-08, 00:52   Link #272
Ledgem
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Originally Posted by Demongod86 View Post
I wish there was some more thematics considered in the balancing. I mean if these protoss are supposed to have this huge amazing technology, how is it that terran battlecruisers give them such a run for their money? Sure, make it cost more, but FFS, ATM, terrain air is more cost-efficient than protoss!
Because if the Protoss were really as all-powerful as they're made out to be, then there wouldn't be a story. If they can incinerate an entire planet, forget the terrans - why are the Zerg a problem? Why do chemicals and claws do anything against armor and shields? It's not made to be that realistic.

And as a Zerg player, I'm glad, because it wouldn't be much fun if zerglings could only knock on structures.
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Old 2007-06-08, 02:38   Link #273
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Originally Posted by Ledgem View Post
Because if the Protoss were really as all-powerful as they're made out to be, then there wouldn't be a story. If they can incinerate an entire planet, forget the terrans - why are the Zerg a problem? Why do chemicals and claws do anything against armor and shields? It's not made to be that realistic.

And as a Zerg player, I'm glad, because it wouldn't be much fun if zerglings could only knock on structures.
is this really that unrealistic speaking?
Considering the description of Zerg, their metabolism, chitineous shells etc; it isn't that weird their claws can cut throug plated armor. heck, even chemical aren't something you can laugh at. (in fact, i think chemical attacks should at least have a damage over time aspect too. something like Devourer attacks, meh)

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I think this new Zergling upgrade is a replacement for the infested terrans in the first game, who basically did the same. Which probably means, that there won't be any infested terrans (and probvably no queens) in this game.
on the opposite, they can change Infested Terran utility, such like additionnal suiciding ranged attackers, etc. now that would be really dangerous, but i would hardly believe that they will remove Queen, due their very strong and unique special skills.
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I don't really understand, what problems you had with Zerg air units. I think those Mutalisk were one of the best units in the game (after carriers). They could attack air and ground, and the attack bounced around, harming more than one unit/building.
Sending in 5 or 6 dozen of them and the enemy is gone.
The big problem with mutalisk is the horrible range attack they got, and they are fairly weak (both damage and HP) until you create them en masse. (well, that's just my opinion anyway. of course, micromanagement can do wonder with this fast air unit, but on average skill, they don't really worth it)

fortunately, guardian aren't that bad (well... you can say they are areal siege tanks), but forcing you to create devourer/scourge for them is a bit irking...
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Old 2007-06-08, 11:36   Link #274
Demongod86
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Mutalisks are amazing. Send them into enemy mineral lines and GG economy. On top of that, they pound mercilessly away at ground forces.

As for why the Zergies can stand up to protoss:

1) Superior evolution. Their little troops are just that damn potent at fighting.
2) There's just so damn many of them. Throw enough zerglings at the problem and it'll go away. At the least, there'll be fewer zerglings.
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Old 2007-06-08, 13:44   Link #275
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Yes they have, fast and many. Though a archon or templar may decrease their numbers. And a right number Zammel (gundam version name? i forgot the brood war name) can sure bomb them away! xD
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Old 2007-06-08, 13:46   Link #276
Demongod86
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Zammel? Goliath?
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Old 2007-06-08, 13:48   Link #277
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zammel.. umm the caterpillar in protoss. U need shells for this to attack.
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Old 2007-06-08, 14:24   Link #278
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Originally Posted by oi_pinoy View Post
zammel.. umm the caterpillar in protoss. U need shells for this to attack.
Reavers.

Must've been playing more Gundam Century than regular SC
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Old 2007-06-08, 15:13   Link #279
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Goliath?
The walker with the two guns on the side, terran unit, long range anti-air can't miss it ~
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Old 2007-06-08, 20:08   Link #280
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^ nah, he perfectly knows what it is.
i think the "gundam" hint made him think that zammel = goliath.
errr... pretty wayyy out of the whack for the term ~~ (i would hardly see anything else than the goliath which would fit the "gundam" description. well... the "usual" image of a gundam that most people would think about)
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