AnimeSuki Forums

Register Forum Rules FAQ Members List Social Groups Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Go Back   AnimeSuki Forum > Anime Related Topics > Manga & Light Novels

Notices

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 2007-06-11, 21:13   Link #241
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
I really do think "getting it right" is worth the effort/wait. The last thing this little story needs is more murk and misinformation. There's been enough of that.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-11, 23:03   Link #242
Pedobear
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Then I shall perhaps point out that I noticed 4 screw-ups in the SaHa version, 3 of which are quite significant, though hardly vital to the main story, which is conveyed just fine despite the innacuracies, and 14 screw-ups in your version(this is disregarding the fixes you've already made), most of which are again not vital to understanding the story. They are typically found in the more subtle differences your translations share. The stuff nobody really gives a shit about, but SaHa is generally closer to the mark than you are in these instances.

1 of these is an occurence where you're both off the mark and yours is arguably worse as it affects the story far more than the way it was phrased in the SaHa version. It's arguably just as random as the SaHa version, and yet the story reads more fluently in theirs simply because of the manner in which it's phrased. It's a vital story oriented mistake that I'm sure most people simply breezed by without a second thought. Of course, when you're simply reading through a manga, most people spend a dozen seconds per page and pay no mind to such things.

A handful of mistakes can possibly be chalked up to minor embellishing/rephrasing, which I personally do NOT consider harmful, but they are still technically inacurate, and given the fact that you've been preaching accuracy, It's hard to justify letting these slide. I've only counted in the more significant rephrases. The kind of stuff that simply shouldn't have been done for someone so concerned with accuracy. More often than not, though, they are problems with the tone and wording that characters "should" be using in their sentences which you are simply not properly conveying. Typically, my guess is that they are a result of running through it quickly and disregarding the japanese grammar being used in favor of simply "getting the point across". 3 mistakes seem to be the filling of bubbles at random as it's clearly not what's being said nor implied, but they are hardly earth-shattering mistakes. Nobody's going to lose any sleep over them. Another mistake is due to a simple disregard for the vocabulary. It's clear that you know what it says, but with the way it's worded, you can only sit there and go "wtf?"

I apologize if I'm being so cryptic here, but I can't say I'm willing to simply hand you the fixes on a silver platter when you're criticizing another for making mistakes and claiming to have the "refined" version. I'm sure the other group is just as welcome to correct their mistakes and release their own refined version. After all, you probably both have each other's versions, so you can compare and correct as you see fit. Being a translator, you should realize that by criticizing another and then asking for others to comment on how poor your "competition" is, you're opening the door to people who will criticize your work as they need both translations and the raw in order to compare. It's clear from your earlier posts that you were initially trying to avoid publicly passing judgement of any kind(At least, that's what I gathered from it), and it's understandable that you would try to defend your translation when the discrepancies were brought forward. If it seems like I am doing all of this facisciously, I assure you that's not the case. Pedobear just likes the loli. I wish you luck in your future translations as I'm sure you intend to continue and I'm sure that no matter what innacuracies they may contain, 99% of your readers won't have the slightest clue, nor will they actually care.
Pedobear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-11, 23:43   Link #243
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Well that's certainly enough incentive to review the material carefully (puts on the unofficial "Where's Waldo" hat and commences to review)
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 00:09   Link #244
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
.....I could present my arguments and let the thread degenerate into a flamebait nitpicking about the most minor of details, which is what you are doing, and get it locked.

Or just totally ignore everything and let people decides which is the most fluid of translation when the dust settles.

Either way, the translation out now are efforts by fans, not professional translators. If we are going to argue the most minor of details all day long, we might as well pool our resources and get a professional translator to sort thing out.
__________________

Last edited by MakubeX2; 2007-06-12 at 00:38.
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 00:49   Link #245
Pedobear
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
Perhaps a neutral party who's well verse in Japanese might care to comment ?
This sounded like an invitation to comment. I apologize if I've misinterpreted it as a request to comment strictly on the SaHa bubbles in question, in which case the first is wrong, the second is wrong, the third is wrong, the fourth is wrong and the fifth is fine, which has technically already been pointed out by potatochobit. Don't dish what you can't take. Sound advice for any translator. Either way, I'll leave you to your own designs as I've no real intention of turning this into a thread full of flaming. I've commented as requested(By you, no less) and I will disappear into the night in order to fondle baby Rin.
Pedobear is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 01:03   Link #246
Potatochobit
Certified Organic
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
you are all vicitms of the theory of relativity.

quality is better than quantity, relative to your persona at this point in time.

because right now you feel the length of time between both groups is acceptable. or admissable. or adequate. or tolerable. or sufficient. or respectable. or satisfactory.

but lets change the time of reference. lets say the translation group is 4 months behind. then u may feel accuracy is left wanting. or impaired. or exiguous. or second string. or unsatisfactory. or insufficient.

and now lets say its even farther behind, we are now a whole year behind the last release. now you might say something is amiss. or dissatisfactory. or inadequate. or lousy. or substandard. or unacceptable.

you cant make a sandwich without both the peanut butter and the jelly, unless it's roast beef.
__________________
*Retired*
Potatochobit is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 01:07   Link #247
FatPianoBoy
Dansa med oss
 
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Near Cincinnati, OH, but actually in Kentucky
Age: 26
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pedobear View Post
This sounded like an invitation to comment. I apologize if I've misinterpreted it as a request to comment strictly on the SaHa bubbles in question
If I may...

What ticked him off (as well as myself, honestly) was that you criticized his translation and then refused to offer him any assistance, despite him repeatedly emphasizing that he wanted people to inform him of errors if they were found.
If everyone is telling him that his translations are better than someone else's, then what's wrong with taking a little pride in it? SaHa's stuff had me raising my eyebrows, too, as I'd already read that section raw before it was released in a scanlation.
Never criticize someone else unless you're willing to help them improve. Otherwise, you're just being a jerk.
Contrary to popular belief, knowing more Japanese does not increase the size of you genitalia. People aren't scanlating this manga for personal gain - they're doing it because they like the story and want others who can't learn the language for one reason or another to enjoy it as well. If we're just going to bicker over who's translation is better and who made what errors (I'm not talking about fair comparison), then someone is doing this for the wrong reasons.
In conclusion, either help him or lay off. This "you screwed up, and I'm just going to point and laugh 'cause I don't like you" stuff makes me feel like I'm back in fifth grade. It's just pointless antagonism.
__________________
FatPianoBoy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 01:19   Link #248
Kaioshin Sama
Banned
 
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Neither Here nor There
Age: 29
Send a message via MSN to Kaioshin Sama
I like how everybody is arguing over the translation of a story about a loli trying to seduce and enslave her teacher with minor life lessons inbetween. Come on guys, this isn't Legend of The Galactic Heroes where a single screwup in the translation could spell disaster for understanding the plot later down the line, this is a guilty pleasure meant to be enjoyed for it's edginess, risque topics and innuendo.
Kaioshin Sama is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 01:28   Link #249
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
I admit, I don't like how SaHa is attempting to release their scanlation at breakneck speed.

The fact that they are commissioned by a duo isn't helping me with the image that they are not doing this out of love of the material, but money. And the result shows.

Perhaps if they improve upon the quality, then maybe, my zealous outlooks will change.
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 02:29   Link #250
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaioshin_Sama View Post
I like how everybody is arguing over the translation of a story about a loli trying to seduce and enslave her teacher with minor life lessons inbetween. Come on guys, this isn't Legend of The Galactic Heroes where a single screwup in the translation could spell disaster for understanding the plot later down the line, this is a guilty pleasure meant to be enjoyed for it's edginess, risque topics and innuendo.
Well, its the misrepresentations and incorrect interpretations that have been made over the story content that make some of us a bit edgy about sloppy work. Makube and his team don't seem to be adverse to re-releases as necessary to fine-tune their work (as long as the nitpicks don't flare into some asymptotic curve).

It certainly wastes bandwidth to post that something is wrong without pointing out what it should be and why.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 04:00   Link #251
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
At least now that we know something about SaHa (or at least about a fan/representative/whatever of theirs)

They can't take criticism when presented. Any further arguments will highlight this point.

But enough, let us discuss about the current progress with the story. Anyone shocked at Rin's past ?
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 04:39   Link #252
2H-Dragon
Silent Warrior
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Netherlands
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
At least now that we know something about SaHa (or at least about a fan/representative/whatever of theirs)

They can't take criticism when presented. Any further arguments will highlight this point.

But enough, let us discuss about the current progress with the story. Anyone shocked at Rin's past ?
If your talking about chap 12. Nothing surprising there. Just answered a few questions I had. Did the father leave or die. How did the mother die (though this was irrelevant unless she was killed or something xD). Reading the chap confirmed some thoughts I had to some extend. So the reason he gives for being against Aoki is, because he has been "betrayed" by an aldut by the past. I can't shake the feeling the boy is doing it for more reasons. If Reiji keeps his pants on he's good guy in my book. Him being overprotective is normal though he should have more faith in Aoki that he'll do the right thing.

I certainly believe there won't be any romantic relationships between the "adults and the children." Even Rin's type of love she has will change overtime. Unless she keeps on loving him till she's 18(maybe even 16 =o) and Aoki has no choise but to jump the gun. I'm expecting Rin to get her hearth broken though when Aoki gets a girlfriend. I think he will get one sooner or later and it will be someone of his age. :O

Thinking about this series is pretty pure till now, of course Rin does some crazy stuff, but hey nothing immoral has happened yet.(considering sex between cousins isn't considered incest in Japan) There has been a lot more crazy manga, where the student-teacher actually have sex, incest and all that stuff. Got canceled in USA for a crappy reason =.=
2H-Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 05:11   Link #253
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
So the reason he gives for being against Aoki is, because he has been "betrayed" by an aldut by the past
I thought there was a line there making it clear that Rin, to Reiji, is the only thing that Aki left for him and anyone that hurt her shall suffer his wrath ? And of course that experience...

Quote:
I'm expecting Rin to get her hearth broken though when Aoki gets a girlfriend.
You'll see it soon enough if SaHa's progress keeps up.
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 05:25   Link #254
2H-Dragon
Silent Warrior
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Netherlands
Age: 28
Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
I thought there was a line there making it clear that Rin, to Reiji, is the only thing that Aki left for him and anyone that hurt her shall suffer his wrath ? And of course that experience...
Yeah that also that of course wasn't thinking right. :|

Quote:
Originally Posted by MakubeX2 View Post
You'll see it soon enough if SaHa's progress keeps up.
If it does I hope Rin doesn't to much crazy stuff. Meh Aoki will make it right, I have some faith in him that he'll set Rin on the right tracks.
2H-Dragon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 05:39   Link #255
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2H-Dragon View Post
If it does I hope Rin doesn't to much crazy stuff. Meh Aoki will make it right, I have some faith in him that he'll set Rin on the right tracks.
You might be glad to know that as of current, Rin, in her 4th Grade is trying to win Aoki over the legit way. Helping out in classes, taking care of stuffs etc instead of playing pranks.

But she still resort to her usual tricks whenever appropiate.
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 11:19   Link #256
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Hmmmmm, since this is a single thread discussion.... maybe we should put specific plot developments under spoiler tags - especially ones past the scanlation releases.

I'm going to review my posts through the thread while its still young and do so. I've got to finish two QC/edit tasks for a couple of fansubs and then I'll focus on any scanlation comments.
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-12, 13:14   Link #257
GammaRed
Member
 
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Age: 37
Referring to the posts about errors in the content....


I believe criticisms should be constructive, with suggestions given for each problem.

And to the comment about those of us whom can not for one reason or another learn Japanese *bows deeply* I thankyou... I am one of those people. As I have dual learning disabilities on top of debilitating migraines, and your efforts make it possible if only for a short time, to forget those things and enjoy something I love. (manga)

*smiles very warmly* You do more than you know with your efforts, and I for one applaud them!!!!
__________________
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Live gives you two things, A time & A place. What you do with the rest is up to you!
(a time to live, and a place to die)
GammaRed is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-14, 02:03   Link #258
MakubeX2
うるとらぺど
 
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Age: 34
From the course of the last few days, after discussion with my Editor and Typesetter, we have come to a conclusion that it's not worthwhile to have a race of speed with our competitor.

Instead we will try to win people over with quality. From Chapter 8 forth, we will use Magazine Exclusive Coloured Scans whenever it was originally present over the Black & White pages featured in the compiled volumes.

Also from Feedbacks gathered about our scans, we will correct any and all mistakes present and complied everything together into "digital volumes", complete with everything you see in the hardcopy Japanese releases. (Content Pages, Centrefold, Posters, etc)

We are also in the midst of discussing throwing some little bonuses which might have nothing to do with KnJ, but the target audience will definitely like....
__________________
MakubeX2 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-14, 03:11   Link #259
Vexx
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
*Author
 
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 56
Sounds beautiful .... tis the best recourse just to work harder

I'm sandbagged with the stuff I'm already committed to but I would like to take a comparative look at the work so far.. since you're moving carefully it'll give me a chance to catch up once I've cleared my table.

Anything I have to say translation-wise, I'll just PM so you can ignore it at will I haven't noticed any real flamers yet though....
Vexx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 2007-06-14, 05:09   Link #260
bleakessence
Member
 
 
Join Date: May 2007
my two cents on the translations:

I remember one interview with a head of some anime big-name company on ANN regarding his personal/professional standing on fansubs, which goes something like this...

"Personally, I like fansubs because they are from the fan community. Professionally, if the fansubs are not made with much love and respect, (in this case, accurate translations) they have the potential to damage the product."

We don't know if a licensor will pick up KnJ in the future... so SaHa and NLB both have a duty to treat their projects with utmost care and respect. The mere admission that SaHa was commissioned to do this project, and not doing it out of "love and respect," shows a major lack of fansubber/scanlator ethics on their side. And if things are commissioned, there is usually money involved... yet another taboo among fansubbers/scanlators.

@pedobear
Quote:
I apologize if I'm being so cryptic here, but I can't say I'm willing to simply hand you the fixes on a silver platter when you're criticizing another for making mistakes and claiming to have the "refined" version.
Although I agree with you on the above quote, perhaps you can help by pointing out the mistakes made? You may have seen something that both NLB and SaHa haven't noticed.

@Kaioshin_Sama
Well... KnJ is one of those manga that has to have accurate translations. If you scroll back a few pages, you'll see a phrase that goes something like "ejaculate inside me" or something. Those who know niponggo are arguing about the grammar and/or other stuff about how the phrase is meant to be understood.

Looking into the highly-controversial nature of this manga, accurately translating the words the author wants to convey with impeccable accuracy is vital to cleaning this manga's reputation. Improperly translated words may lose their true meaning, and those who are against this manga (even though they have no idea what the story holds) will further justify their stand.

Being too nit-picky on the translating is pretty much lame, but it's inevitable, considering that two groups are scanlating it: one being commissioned to speed-sub it, the other aiming for quality.

(just read SaHa's [and NLb's] chapter seven... it makes me go 'awww...' XD )

Quote:
Comparisons:
#1
Chap7, page 7, upper-left scene followed by a response in lower-right scene
SaHa:
"You stupid virgin with phimosis!"
"I might be a virgin, but I sure as hell don't have phimosis!"
NLB:
"Virgin!"
"I'm not just inexperienced, I'm also totally inept when it comes to this stuff."
*Phimosis? That's one deep word there... I have to critique NLB on their translation of the response. 'Inexperienced' and 'inept,' from what I understand, point to the same subject: virginity/sex... if this is true, then the mistake of redundancy is committed in this sentence. Unless 'inexperienced' or 'inept' is pointing to another unmentioned (but inferred) subject.

#2
Chap7, page 7, mid-left scene and lower-left scene:
SaHa: "What the hell!? What the hell!!?"; "I've been at Rin-chan's side... much, much longer than that bozo... !!"
NLB: "Why sensei, why!!"; "Why did you make me say it? You know how close I am with Rin-chan..!!"
*SaHa's implies a tone of irritation and anger. NLB's implies a tone of frustrated questioning.

#3
Chap7, page 12, upper-right scene
SaHa: "Um... are both parents out today?"
NLB: "Err... is there anyone a bit older I could talk to?"
*I know the core-meaning isn't different between the translations, but the choice of words used by the two groups makes this scene: considering the context of the situation, NLB's choice of words makes the speaker seem a bit brash or fresh, while SaHa's choice of words makes the speaker seem more subdued. My two cents.

#4
Chap7, page 14, lower-left scene
SaHa: "I advise that you be careful with her, sensei."
NLB: "And I'll be expecting nothing less from you."
*SaHa's translation can be understood two ways: as a 'warning to be aware of her', or as a 'warning to take care of her.'

#5
Chap7, page 19, upper-left scene
SaHa: "Yeah. It's better that I respect her privacy or I may end up creating more of a distance between us. I think I just need to learn to cope with it!"
NLB: "That's why... instead keeping[sic] our distance because we're worried about violating their private lives... we'd be better off getting to know our children and helping them solve their problems together."
*One of them is seriously off the mark on this one. SaHa's version says the speaker has to respect the boundaries of privacy, while NLB's version says the exact opposite.

I'll take the opportunity to point out a few errors on NLB's part:
grammatical error: page 14, on the lower-right scene
"Under these circumstances... I've assumed the the duties of her parents and taken care of ***."

How is Rin's adoptive-brother's name spelled? "Reiji" or "Leiji"?

grammatical error: page 19, upper-left scene, left-most speech balloon
"That's why... instead of keeping our distance because we're worried about violating their private lives..."
Whew... now that that's done, I make my comments:

First off, although I strongly question SaHa's motives and ethics as scanlators, they seem to have a good grasp of English grammar and expressions. The speech used by the characters seems more appropriate to the context of the situation and the flow of discussion is clear and concise... I'll give their group at least that much.

To NLB and MakubeX2, although I sincerely admire your group's drives and motivations in scanlating KnJ, there seems to be recurring problems with grammar and spelling typos. I know I'm no translator, and I know nil about Niponggo, but if you need assistance in reviewing the grammar and spelling, as well as "naturalizing" the flow of speech for an English-speaking audience, I would be more than happy to assist.

And finally, please don't call me a member of the grammar gestapo... From what I see in KnJ, I just want to help out with the scanlations, as well as serve as a critic to help improve the quality of the scanlations (at least for NLB, since SaHa has already confirmed that they have no intention to review or revise their completed chapters)
__________________
Life is unfair. So... what are you going to do? Cry? Whine? Wallow in self-pity until someone 'saves' you? Why not do a damned thing about it instead?

Last edited by bleakessence; 2007-06-14 at 07:32. Reason: Added comparisons of chap7
bleakessence is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
comedy, growing up, loli, school life, seinen

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 17:06.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
We use Silk.