[Manga] Chapter 399 Discussion

[skyline^]

Originally Posted by skurai

Anyways, I believe madara did summon the 9 tail fox, the one that attacked konoha. After all, the kyuubi himself said "sharingan eyes more sinister than uchicha madara". Either that or he summoned the 9 tails fox to fight with senju and that same fox somehow appeared (other reasons) to attack konoha.
But chances are, it was madara's doing.

Or after summonig the kyuubi, madara sealed him off for a while [wasnt able to seal him completely] and because of that he was drained and thus lost. The Kyuubi appeared again and attacked the village

ps do you honestly think the first was able to win against EMS and kyuubi even though it was said there were almost equal in power?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Really? There have been quite a few discussions where it was actually theorized that Shodai's power over Bijuu was somehow what could give him the edge against Madara.
There was no reason to connect Yamato with Shodai just for Naruto , Jiraiya's seal was enough for this if supressing the Kyubi's chakra was the only purpose.
When Madara was finally introduced, showed to be Shodai's rival and was said to summon and control the Kyubi it became obvious these Bijuu power came into play during their last battle at the GotE.

Hmmm. I remember Yamato saying that Shodai had the power to control bijuu but it wasn't ever said he used it against the Kyuubi. But I agree, once Madra revealed to summon and control the Kyuubi, it does make sense to figure Shodai used his powers against the 9-tails. The idea of Minato being the only shinobi to go toe-to-toe with the Kyuubi got stuck in my head.

Originally Posted by james3wk

That is not true. Hashirama does not have the power to control the Kyuubi, he can only suppress its chakra (effectively sealing it away), that is why the double-page image show trees around the Kyuubi's legs.

He does have the power to control bijuu through his necklace, which reacts to his chakra alone.

Originally Posted by skyline^

ps do you honestly think the first was able to win against EMS and kyuubi even though it was said there were almost equal in power?

He did win the fight somehow, that doesn't mean he decisively beat them.

[Sazelyt]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Look at what Konoha has or had...(gold) and what other villages have....(trash)

Senjuu and Uchiha seem to be the strongest of their time, and you are expectin non-trash to live through the time against the two. It is not that they have only trash, it is just the ones they had may only suffice against one of those, instead of two, which is a pretty reasonable assumption.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by james3wk

It was explicitedly stated by Itachi that the MS has control abilities, and the EMS has something beyond even that. Right now all we have is Yamato as an example, but he, as well as Tsunade, have specifically mentioned that Hashirama had the ability to suppress the bijuu, not control (they even brought up the powers of the necklace in regards to controlling the bijuu). As Flipskuul said, it is kind of like rock-paper-scissors - Hashirama's suppression/sealing is the exact oppositie of Madara's outright control. When you think about it, this makes perfect sense. Hashirama could use his Mokuton to absorb the demonic chakra, effectively suppressing the beast, but Madara with his fancy EMS could simply control it (much the same as Sasuke controlling a Summon Boss).

So...you compare the Bijuu with boss summonings? I think Manda, Gamabunta and Katsyu all three together teaming up still wouldnt stand a chance against the Kyuubi.

Shukaku fully unleased would also defeat Gamabunta and Manda probably aswell.. it's a shame but i think these rare Bijuu are being underestimated..

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by skyline^

ps do you honestly think the first was able to win against EMS and kyuubi even though it was said there were almost equal in power?

The kyuubi is not a ninja, it is a ninja's tool, a ninja's summon. So it was 1on1 fight if we look at that this way. However Madara says he challenged the whole village, so it seems like Madara vs all, which means that Nidaime and other senju were probably helping Shodaime against Madara. However against the kyuubi only Shodaime could fight so i guess at a certain point all others trying to help Shodaime became useless. It seems that you need either Shodaime's genes or the MS to control kyuubi, or you are useless. The only exception is the 4th hokage, but he also died because he did not have the required genes.

Also i'm sure that the village stood behind Shodaime because of his mentality, which was democratic in it's essence: it allowed anyone regardeless of clan or family to become hokage if he is fit for it. As opposed to that Madara's line would allow only Uchiha to be hokage which is similar to Hyuuga's family policies, and probably also some other villages have also such feudal laws. And the best examples of the success of that "will of fire" are the 3rd and 4th hokages, who are not from any special clan, they were born geniuses, the best non-bloodline people ever born in Konoha. The 4th hokage was Konoha's finest ever ninja because his power was not given to him by some bloodline but by his extraordinary genius, he could even stop the strongest demon without any genetic ability. That's why i regard him being better than any other hokage, even the 1st, the 1st had big luck that he had those genes, otherwise Madara would have killed him and many others.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

So...you compare the Bijuu with boss summonings? I think Manda, Gamabunta and Katsyu all three together teaming up still wouldnt stand a chance against the Kyuubi.

Shukaku fully unleased would also defeat Gamabunta and Manda probably aswell.. it's a shame but i think these rare Bijuu are being underestimated..

You are misunderstanding my point. I was not comparing the abilities of a boss summon against a Bijuu, I was explaining the power of the Sharigan and its evolutions to control various creatures.

But, if what Sabuku Kyu says about the necklaces ability to control is correct, then my point is partially incorrect.

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The kyuubi is not a ninja, it is a ninja's tool, a ninja's summon.

I don't agree with that statement. The Kyuubi is definitely not a Ninja tool. To say that you make it seem as if he's as common as a kunai. He's a demon simply stated and there happen to be rare individuals with the ability to harness that power.

[skyline^]

Ero-Senn1n

so you have: madara saying he didnt summon kyuubi (ofc he could be lying); some new clan with equal power to uchiha's; someone who has the ability to control(summon?) the kyuubi and defeated madara with haxx EMS and kishimoto's love for the uchiha versus speculations.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by Vindi89

I don't agree with that statement. The Kyuubi is definitely not a Ninja tool. To say that you make it seem as if he's as common as a kunai. He's a demon simply stated and there happen to be rare individuals with the ability to harness that power.

A ninja dog isn't as common as a kunai, neither is a puppet or a gigantic summoned creature but they are all ninja tools as long as they are under the control of a ninja who use them to do his biding.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

However Madara says he challenged the whole village, so it seems like Madara vs all, which means that Nidaime and other senju were probably helping Shodaime against Madara.
.

I strongly doubt this if for no other reason than Kishimoto does not use team battles (unless it is against weaker opponents). Kishimoto goes out of his way to have all the big battles be one-on-one fights, and the image of Hashirama vs Kyuubi & Madara seems to imply this.

[skurai]

Originally Posted by skyline^

Or after summonig the kyuubi, madara sealed him off for a while [wasnt able to seal him completely] and because of that he was drained and thus lost. The Kyuubi appeared again and attacked the village

ps do you honestly think the first was able to win against EMS and kyuubi even though it was said there were almost equal in power?

Yeah, he did win after all. Why not? Senju must have some awesome power. Their clan isnt seen in konoha, so, there must be something to it.

Originally Posted by skyline^

Ero-Senn1n

so you have: madara saying he didnt summon kyuubi (ofc he could be lying); some new clan with equal power to uchiha's; someone who has the ability to control(summon?) the kyuubi and defeated madara with haxx EMS and kishimoto's love for the uchiha versus speculations.

This is a possibility. Itachi assumed that madara did summon but madara said he didnt do so. He could be lying but i get the feeling that he isnt. Itachi wasnt around when it happened so, he cant tell for sure. He must have assumed it somehow.

Now madara is gathering kyuubis. My guess is he wants to use their chakra (put it into himself) and also use them as a summoning.
There are 9 kyuubis or so right?? Probably 1 is promised to each akatsuki member. Madara will probably want the 9 tails as his own and chances are, of all the kyuubis out there, the 9 tails is the strongest.
Imo, more tails= more strength. But 9 tails is probably the hardest to control as well.

[james0246]

^ Skurai, you mean "gathering bijuu" right, not "gathering kyuubis".

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james3wk

I strongly doubt this if for no other reason than Kishimoto does not use team battles (unless it is against weaker opponents). Kishimoto goes out of his way to have all the big battles be one-on-one fights, and the image of Hashirama vs Kyuubi & Madara seems to imply this.

The off-screen battle are many vs many quite often, for example the ninja wars and the sannin vs unknown ninja. When someone needs to be hyped up (like the salamander guy) he will win a fight even against multiple opponents. But what Kakashi and Tsunade and others tell is to always fight as a group, since the group wins over individualistic idiots, this is some kind of moral message. Of course in the on-screen battles 1on1 is often used, since it's easier to do and also it's often better for the plot, i mean for the character.

Madara says: "i challenged Konohagakure", and we see the kyuubi in it's full power attacking and a battlefield with more than 2 ninja. Of course we can be sure that the battle ended in a 1on1 fight where Hashirama finally won. However it could be that the fight was somewhat similar to the Kakuzu vs Naruto fight, where it was Naruto who won but we must admit that without Kakashi's and Shikamaru's help he probably wouldn't have won or would have won with much more difficulty.

For example if Madara had to fire a lot of amaterasu against Konoha ninja he lost some chakra there and also had fatigued his MS with that. If Madara could not use tsukiyomi because they were so many then he had to use large scale jutsu against them, and finally his most powerful weapon became his only weapon (that is kyuubi) but Hashirama was stronger exactly in that field because of his special genetic trait.

It also seems like Hashirama was older then Madara at the time, so he also had that as an advantage.

I'm not saying that Hashirama would have lost, but i think if it were a 1on1 fight only without any interference Madara could have a better chance to win because of his EMS.

[quebas]

What about kakuzu??? If the 1st Hokage was such a badass how could kakuzu live through a battle whith the 1st???

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The off-screen battle are many vs many quite often, for example the ninja wars and the sannin vs unknown ninja. ....

...I'm not saying that Hashirama would have lost, but i think if it were a 1on1 fight only without any interference Madara could have a better chance to win because of his EMS.

You have made some good points here, so let me go about this from a different perspective.

I highly doubt that a statute of Madara would have been made if he had killed several or even a few Shinobi when he fled Konoha (you generally do not construct a monument commemorating the dead or a battle by using their killers likeness as part of the monument). Added to that, Kakashi clearly compared the Hashirama v Madara battle to the Sasuke v Naruto battle, so that is a very strong hint that it was a one-on-one fight

Originally Posted by quebas

What about kakuzu??? If the 1st Hokage was such a badass how could kakuzu live through a battle whith the 1st???

By running away...

I would have liked to have seen this battle, though. I wonder if the anime team will attempt to show it.

[SeanQ]

Originally Posted by quebas

What about kakuzu??? If the 1st Hokage was such a badass how could kakuzu live through a battle whith the 1st???

Because Kakuzu is badass =)
________
Fetish Heels

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by Hunter

A ninja dog isn't as common as a kunai, neither is a puppet or a gigantic summoned creature but they are all ninja tools as long as they are under the control of a ninja who use them to do his biding.

A tool can be a person (demon) manipulated by another to peform their deeds... however the context in which that sentence was used implies that its an everyday common item to be used as easily as a kunai, as if that's the only function. This far from the truth because the Kyuubi is actually bound against his will to the user's will. Of your examples listed there, Ninja dogs and gigantic summons are far from being under the control of a ninjas as far as your definition is concerned. They are willingly aiding said ninja.

In the broadest definition of the word 'tool' it can mean anything used as a means of accomplishing a task or purpose. So yes in this context just about everything is a tool. Based on this definition the Kyuubi can be a tool regardless of if someone controls it or not as long as it accomplishes some deed in regards to someone else's desires. Such as attacking a village that happens to be the home of an enemy who gets killed in the battle following.

My disagreement with the statement earlier was that it implied that any joe-shmoe ninja could control Kyuubi.

P.s- Sorry for the long post.

[Khalilnaruske]

Awesome chapter. I wonder if Madara had his space-time jutsu way back then or is it something he formed after he "died"? As far as his mask is concerned, I think Madara had to make a huge sacrifice (give up an eye) in order to live. Or maybe Hashi just poked it out. Can't wait to see how Rikoudo and Pein fit into this story seeing as how the Uchiha and the Senju were descendants of Rik.

Anyone notice that Fugaku Uchiha, Sasuke's father, was at the forefront of the Panel on the last page. Smart move by the council to place Itachi, the leaders son, a spy in the ranks.

[Sasuke_Bateman]

The whole Uchihas were dog thing hurt like hell. I'm avoiding forum life for awhile until that shit dies down.

[Nintendo]

Originally Posted by skyline^

I think you overestimate him. Maybe it's the other way around. Since both seem to have powers to control the kyuubi so Hashirama summons the kyuubi to defeat madara. While madara focuses with EMS on the kyuubi, Hashirama defeats him and blames everything on madara.

The uchiha learn about that and wants to revolt. Itachi wipes out the Uchiha ten also learns about the fact and decides to team up with madara... simple as that

itachi didnt team up with madara because he liked him, itachi was a spy. itachi believed in the village more then his own clan.

there was a reason itachi gave sasuke his techs to kill madara if they ever seen eachother, because he was a spy to the end.