Knights of Sidonia: Battle for Planet Nine (Season 2)

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

You could have saved yourself a lot of trouble if you stopped right there at the part in bold.

Because, if it were indeed true that the Sidonians don't have a way to adequately compensate for gravity, their pilots wouldn't even be able to function at the velocities they are apparently fighting at: The combatants would have been crushed by sheer inertia long before they even manage to pull their triggers.

In short, some suspension of disbelief is necessary, even for such venerable classics like Star Wars (lightsabers aren't physically possible, but plasma-sabers might just be feasible).

I think there's a simple aesthetic reason the railguns used by the Gardes are so long: They're meant to look like cavalry lances, such as those used by mediaeval European knights. Hence the title, the Knights of Sidonia.

Well, I wanted to explain my reasoning. And an Inertial Compensator =/= Gravatic Impeller.

The only problem I have with cavalry lance concept is that the largest lances used by knights were generally Jousting Lances (14-16 feet long), which were generally too heavy and awkward to be used in real combat, which used and entirely different set of lances.

Plus, and this is really pedantic, a Knight or Man-At-Arms (same weps, no social benefits) would probably rack up most of his kills with a Longsword (or Falchion, or Cavalry Saber) or a Mace. The selection depended on how many armored foes he expected to take to the field against him. The lance would only be used in the initial charge when the Heavy Cavalry was committed to battle. While the success or failure of this charge could sway the outcome of the battle, it was a fairly short period of time.

[TinyRedLeaf]

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

And an Inertial Compensator =/= Gravatic Impeller.

I didn't claim they were. I'm just saying that if Sidonia hasn't even figured out how to compensate for the inertia caused by high-speed space flight, everything else is moot. We don't even need to nitpick over their choice of weapons.

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

Plus, and this is really pedantic, a Knight or Man-At-Arms (same weps, no social benefits) would probably rack up most of his kills with a Longsword (or Falchion, or Cavalry Saber) or a Mace. The selection depended on how many armored foes he expected to take to the field against him.

Meh. If we want to be really pedantic, the sword is an overrated field weapon. Not every culture thought of it as the primary weapon of war (the Greeks didn't) and in medieaval Europe, it was more often a sign of prestigious status (when you consider the amount of steel needed to craft a sword, and the enormous price such metal would have fetched back then, you'd realise that good swords weren't altogether common, and were far out of reach of the average peasant) than a practical weapon of war.

As you said: men-at-arms in Middle Ages Europe were more likely to use maces against armoured opponents. And in Sengoku Japan, samurai preferred spears over katana, even when fighting on foot, simply because — like most of us with common sense — warriors like to put some distance between themselves and their opponent. Their chances of survival are simply better that way.

Bottom-line is, chill dude. Most of us here are geeks just like you, and we're willing to look the other way when it comes to entertainment.

[cupumanager]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

I didn't claim they were. I'm just saying that if Sidonia hasn't even figured out how to compensate for the inertia caused by high-speed space flight, everything else is moot. We don't even need to nitpick over their choice of weapons.

Bottom-line is, chill dude. Most of us here are geeks just like you, and we're willing to look the other way when it comes to entertainment.

I have to start with this. Yeah, pretty much this. But as we are discussing about the weaponry on this show a bit, so here we go...

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

-snip-

Good Ideas - in extension I was always wondering after the development of Artificial Kabi, Why don't they develop Kabi Torpedoes? Those would be very useful against Mass Union Ships with very thick Ena Armor, a better alternative than chipping and stripping using tiny GCPDS shot from Guardians.

Just like you, I envision some kind of Nuclear Shaped Charge (or whatever Hyggs Interference Device or something, Sidonian Stuffs...) driving Artificial Kabi. But why small artificial kabi? Why not a dish of Kabi made into a Mass Union Ship core-killing Self Forging Penetrator?

What Nagate did at the battle against G550 can serve as an example of how effective this weapon could be. Thats just improvised missile made of Engine Pack dropped down the barrel of a Hyggs Cannon by Dive-Bombing like an Ju-88 Mistel. Now imagine if its Kabi-tipped.

With this, Guardians could be used as Torpedo Bombers this way against Large targets; or Launched from Heavy Mass Cannons. Dumb Slugs can be easily dodged in the vastness of space, but missiles based on maneuverable Guardian frame engine would be much harder to miss.

I agree that Sidonia needs Intermediate-sized Weaponry, something smaller than the Super Hyggs Particle Cannon, that could be used practically as Fire Support. Medium Particle Cannons turrets would suffice. Rapid GCP CIWS Defence grid wouldn't hurt as last line of defence.

[TinyRedLeaf]

It's probably worth recalling that Sidonia had not encountered gauna for about a hundred years until this recent rash of interstellar clashes. A hundred years is more than enough time to forget combat tactics that may have once been crucial for survival — the pressing necessity simply wasn't there. That's a passable explanation for Sidonia's recent reversion to melee weaponry. There wasn't an immediate need for more efficient ways to engage mass enemy formations, both within and without the generation ship.

Originally Posted by cupumanager

Good Ideas - in extension I was always wondering after the development of Artificial Kabi, Why don't they develop Kabi Torpedoes? Those would be very useful against Mass Union Ships with very thick Ena Armor, a better alternative than chipping and stripping using tiny GCPDS shot from Guardians.

Considering the almost breakneck pace of tactical innovation since the reappearance of the gauna, I wouldn't be surprised if Garde-delivered kabi torpedoes became a reality. Someone had to show it was possible, and since Tanikaze had done exactly that, the eggheads at Sidonia's war room (or Midorikawa at the very least) may want to start thinking of developing it as a standard tactic.

Originally Posted by cupumanager

I agree that Sidonia needs Intermediate-sized Weaponry, something smaller than the Super Hyggs Particle Cannon, that could be used practically as Fire Support. Medium Particle Cannons turrets would suffice. Rapid GCP CIWS Defence grid wouldn't hurt as last line of defence.

The Sidonia had been lucky so far, in that the current wave of gauna hadn't yet been able to get near enough for it to deploy such medium-range defence systems. I don't know if they do indeed exist. Maybe they don't. But it could just be that there hasn't been a need to use them yet.

[thundrakkon]

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

Considering the almost breakneck pace of tactical innovation since the reappearance of the gauna, I wouldn't be surprised if Garde-delivered kabi torpedoes became a reality.

The problems with long range missiles or torpedoes, as mentioned before in the series, is that they get shot down by the Gauna before it arrives at its destination. The reason it worked once was because the troops distracted and prevented the Gauna from shooting down the missile in time. Considering how adaptive the Gauna are, they have probably figured out another strategy to shoot down missiles and torpedoes even with troops interfering at this point.

[jcdietz03]

Events in this series won't stand up to fridge logic. Lots of questions from Episode 2:
Why does the chimera not start with its super move (rather than finish with it)?
Why aren't the Guardians using their Hyggs for attacking placenta?

And generally:
If humans photosynthesized as well as most plants do, they'd get about 4% of their energy from the sun if they spent their daylight hours in the sun. They'd be able to skip 1 in 25 meals, or about 1 meal per week.

It's best to adopt the MST3K Mantra:

If you're wondering how Mike eats and breathes
And other science facts
Then repeat to yourself 'It's just a show,
I should really just relax.'

[thundrakkon]

@jcdietz03

Yes, there is some level of fuzzy logic and pseudo science, and people do have to have some level of suspension of disbelief to enjoy any anime show.

On that line of thought, the reasons why the chimera did not start with its ultimate move comes in two-folds. One, it was still incomplete, so it asked permission before doing it. Two, it used up a lot of Hyggs particles to use it, which would leave it exhausted and in a weaker state if things went awry.

As for Guardians blasting away with Hyggs, well, they're fighting a massive Gauna for a prolonged period of time. Keep using the Hyggs canon, and they'll run out of energy.

As for photosynthesis, I'm pretty sure they are not doing it the same way as plants. It's some sort of super science that manipulates the genetic structure, ATP processes can be different and more efficient, less energy could be required, more body efficiency, etc.

[Eraser]

Originally Posted by jhpace1

Being a purist, I would have preferred to not hear explosions in outer space

I keep telling myself that these sounds occur in the radio waves. Like, electromagnetic pulses from the unshielded weapons and engines, the radar bleeps bounces from surfaces, etc.

[Anh_Minh]

The computer emulating those sounds to help with situational awareness...

[Heir of the Void]

Originally Posted by cupumanager

I have to start with this. Yeah, pretty much this. But as we are discussing about the weaponry on this show a bit, so here we go...



Good Ideas - in extension I was always wondering after the development of Artificial Kabi, Why don't they develop Kabi Torpedoes? Those would be very useful against Mass Union Ships with very thick Ena Armor, a better alternative than chipping and stripping using tiny GCPDS shot from Guardians.

Just like you, I envision some kind of Nuclear Shaped Charge (or whatever Hyggs Interference Device or something, Sidonian Stuffs...) driving Artificial Kabi. But why small artificial kabi? Why not a dish of Kabi made into a Mass Union Ship core-killing Self Forging Penetrator?

What Nagate did at the battle against G550 can serve as an example of how effective this weapon could be. Thats just improvised missile made of Engine Pack dropped down the barrel of a Hyggs Cannon by Dive-Bombing like an Ju-88 Mistel. Now imagine if its Kabi-tipped.

With this, Guardians could be used as Torpedo Bombers this way against Large targets; or Launched from Heavy Mass Cannons. Dumb Slugs can be easily dodged in the vastness of space, but missiles based on maneuverable Guardian frame engine would be much harder to miss.

I agree that Sidonia needs Intermediate-sized Weaponry, something smaller than the Super Hyggs Particle Cannon, that could be used practically as Fire Support. Medium Particle Cannons turrets would suffice. Rapid GCP CIWS Defence grid wouldn't hurt as last line of defence.

See, this is what I was thinking with the small Kabi Casaba-Howitzer. The core of a Gauna is a small target, and while the humans see to be able to determine the rough internal structure of a Gauna, there is still a very large volume of Ena between the impact and detonation points and the core. With the realities of high-velocity void combat, controlling the impact angle of the device with the precision necessary to hit the core with a single-vector attack such as an EFP might be very difficult to do, particularity if the missile is jinking to avoid getting Higgs'd.

Combined with the fact that a Very Large aggravate Gauna or Mass Union Ship seems to possess a large number of small cores throughout its body in addition to the Host Core, a Directed Penetrating Shrapnel warhead offers the ability to destroy a swath of secondary cores in addition to destroying the Host Core after sufficient Ena has been removed.

Agreed about the usefulness of guided missiles, and the need for a response more flexible and usable than the HMC or the Wave Motion Higgs Gun.

Originally Posted by TinyRedLeaf

It's probably worth recalling that Sidonia had not encountered gauna for about a hundred years until this recent rash of interstellar clashes. A hundred years is more than enough time to forget combat tactics that may have once been crucial for survival — the pressing necessity simply wasn't there. That's a passable explanation for Sidonia's recent reversion to melee weaponry. There wasn't an immediate need for more efficient ways to engage mass enemy formations, both within and without the generation ship.


Considering the almost breakneck pace of tactical innovation since the reappearance of the gauna, I wouldn't be surprised if Garde-delivered kabi torpedoes became a reality. Someone had to show it was possible, and since Tanikaze had done exactly that, the eggheads at Sidonia's war room (or Midorikawa at the very least) may want to start thinking of developing it as a standard tactic.


The Sidonia had been lucky so far, in that the current wave of gauna hadn't yet been able to get near enough for it to deploy such medium-range defence systems. I don't know if they do indeed exist. Maybe they don't. But it could just be that there hasn't been a need to use them yet.

Well, the thing about a laser as compared to a Higgs Beam is that it is light speed. IIRC, the battle with the Asteroid at the end of Season One took place at a range of around 300,000 kilometers, in the neighborhood of one light-second. We know it can't have been more than a few light seconds, as the Guardian pilots had close to real-time communication with the bridge, and no mention has been made of FTL comms tech. In fact, the loss of contact with the other Seed Ships suggests that this is the case.

Given that it took several seconds for the Higgs Mega Particle blast to hit the Gauna, that implies that Higgs beams move at a significant fraction of c, but not 3e8 kps, a conclusion supported by all the times both Benisuzume and Nagate dodged Higgs blasts.

A laser could engage at that range in under a second, and would be practically instantaneous at he 8,000 km range of the episode 4 battle.

Originally Posted by thundrakkon

The problems with long range missiles or torpedoes, as mentioned before in the series, is that they get shot down by the Gauna before it arrives at its destination. The reason it worked once was because the troops distracted and prevented the Gauna from shooting down the missile in time. Considering how adaptive the Gauna are, they have probably figured out another strategy to shoot down missiles and torpedoes even with troops interfering at this point.

Slap a triple layer of Anti-Higgs coating on that thing, spin it to spread a beam impact across the surface, have it jink like crazy using random algorithims, and launch 20 of those suckers and it won't be a problem.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The computer emulating those sounds to help with situational awareness...

They used that excuse in Star Wars, I think.

[Jagger]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The computer emulating those sounds to help with situational awareness...

That could make sense actually. I've noticed that when I play action-oriented video games with the sound effects off I don't do as well because I'm not as connected to what's happening on the screen.

[Top Sergeant]

I have no idea what sort of propellant / propulsion they use for the kabi-guns, but whatever it is it produces a fair amount of recoil.

I noticed something in the OP scenes: there is a shot of Tanakaze in a library somewhere and there is a girl on a ladder behind him. Anyone know who that girl is?

Looks like we'll get another scene with Ren and En next episode. Hopefully its a substantial one, as I am getting to be fond of Ren.

[GMT]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

The computer emulating those sounds to help with situational awareness...

Actually, it makes more sense if one assumes that Knights of Sidonia was a dramatized documentary, and the noises outside the cockpit were dubbed in for dramatic purposes; because they actually get it right a lot of the time. If you listen during the in-cockpit shots of the various pilots, the only things you'll hear is what you'd expect to hear in a spacecraft ... i.e. the vibrations from the ship's own mass driver firing, or its own propulsion systems.

An especially good example is when they're trying to take down that Gauna battlestar (that's pretty much what it is ... it launches fighters and dispenses ass-whoopings.) Outside, you hear the sounds of explosive rounds hammering away at the ship ... however, inside Tanikaze's giant fighter-robot, all you hear is his ship firing and him grunting. You hear none of the explosions that you hear during the exterior shots. In fact, during all of the in-cockpit shots, the computer only makes noises that one would expect the computer to be making ... i.e. a noise to tell the pilot that it's received touchscreen input, or that it's opened an important window on the GUI, or that the targeting computer has a clear shot at a Gauna.

Originally Posted by Heir of the Void

Well, the thing about a laser as compared to a Higgs Beam is that it is light speed. IIRC, the battle with the Asteroid at the end of Season One took place at a range of around 300,000 kilometers, in the neighborhood of one light-second. We know it can't have been more than a few light seconds, as the Guardian pilots had close to real-time communication with the bridge, and no mention has been made of FTL comms tech. In fact, the loss of contact with the other Seed Ships suggests that this is the case.

Given that it took several seconds for the Higgs Mega Particle blast to hit the Gauna, that implies that Higgs beams move at a significant fraction of c, but not 3e8 kps, a conclusion supported by all the times both Benisuzume and Nagate dodged Higgs blasts.

A laser could engage at that range in under a second, and would be practically instantaneous at he 8,000 km range of the episode 4 battle.

There are a few things about lasers that would contraindicate their usage. One ... lasers are very inefficient. I think the best theoretical efficiency for a free-electron laser (a kind of tunable laser that would be able to achieve the sorts of short-wavelength lasers that would actually be useful in a sci-fi setting) is in the neighborhood of 60-65% (mind you, the mass drivers they're using aren't much better.)

Of course, with a laser, you don't need more than a few megawatts or tens of megawatts of power to do an incredible amount of damage ... but a laser's range is directly dictated by the size of the firing aperture, and the wavelength of the laser. A laser with an effective range of 8000 kilometers would require a power output of 100 MW, a wavelength of 10 nanometers (this is extreme UV, almost to the point of soft X-rays,) and an aperture of 10 meters. All of that to cut a meter into something made out of carbon and titanium.

That, of course, would only be a weapon you'd mount on something like Sidonia. A weapon more appropriate for a giant fighter-robot could have a wavelength of 121 nanometers (extreme UV for sure, but not as extreme as the other UV,) an aperture diameter of 2 meters, and could do the same damage as the weapon listed above at 85 kilometers. It would also have a power output of 25 MW.

Of course, the catch is that the laser has to stay on target for a tenth of a second to do that kind of damage ... and you've poked a hole that's a meter deep, but six millimeters wide. To do explosive damage (i.e. the vaporization occurs faster than the speed of sound of the material, causing shockwaves,) the robot-sized laser would have to be fired at a range of under two kilometers. The Sidonia-sized laser would have to get within 200 kilometers of its target to have a similar effect. (Granted, you could get a stupidly destructive laser using X-ray and gamma ray wavelengths, but an x-ray laser would (according to sources I've found) require a free-electron laser a kilometer wide, if you're not using magic materials. The best way to make a gamma-ray laser is to use a nuke to pump the lasing mechanism ... so it'd be a useful missile warhead. Presumably Sidonia doesn't have a lot of actinides (i.e. uranium, plutonium, thorium, etc) aboard (which makes sense, since you'd need to mine them from a large rocky body ... and they try to avoid large bodies, since Gauna like to hide in them,) since they don't appear to have anything heavier than chemical explosives.)

[Dragonria]

Has the CGI improved since the last season ?

[Stark700]

Dat blush at the end though


<3

[Friday]

very quiet episode.....next one be loud!!!!!

[Top Sergeant]

A nice combo episode: quality time with our main(s) but scenes showing that things are still moving in the background amongst the movers and shakers.

And its confirmed that the Guardes hanger is definitely a low gravity area from the way Samari's punch bounced Tsuruuchi all over the place LOL.

[aakun4]

I liked that the pace was slowed down in this ep. All previous episodes were too full of action (not complaining) so a break was needed and it's not like it was boring at all! still a great episode. Can't wait for next week as always.

[Mubyoshi]

another great episode. tsumugi is so cute with those squeaky little noises haha. and on that night nagate will turn izana into a woman! ive always wondered what happens when the third gender changes, i hope they go into detail about that one day.

[Top Sergeant]

Originally Posted by Mubyoshi

another great episode. tsumugi is so cute with those squeaky little noises haha. and on that night nagate will turn izana into a woman! ive always wondered what happens when the third gender changes, i hope they go into detail about that one day.

I am hoping that will happen this season.