Character Discussion - Suzaku

[Silver Soul]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Wow, I can't remember the last time I disagreed with so many points in one post.



It would have been nice if Suzaku grew out of his childish reasoning which he hasn't, which, to be honest, has turned him into a Britannia bitch.



-If you are talking about the JLF, he integrated in the only members who actually made a difference.

-Sorry but the Japanese fought willingly, knowing full well there would be consequences if they lost. How exactly did he know it would fail? He left it in Toudou's charge. I understand that losing a leader is important, but it should not be the deciding factor of a battle.

-Once again, it's only the volunteers that want to fight for Zero, if you remember from episode 1 the Japanese were praying for Zero's return, exemplified by the bunny girl clinging of a picture of Zero. He created a new country for them, how can you possibly dislike him for that?



-His status;
-I think you mean Euphemia and Nunnally's plan.
-I don't find a redeeming quality trait to be something as obvious as not ordering a massacre.



Yeah, daily executions of his countrymen were committed without him lifting a finger. We know how the Japanese feel about him, they HATE him.



Which is why we want to see him do it, Lelouch is the underdog and everyone except maybe a few people in this thread want to see him succeed.

And yet you haven't made any valid reasons, please we're here to discuss not to hate

[DN24]

How exactly did he know it would fail? He left it in Toudou's charge. I understand that losing a leader is important, but it should not be the deciding factor of a battle.

Because he never dream that some experienced BKs and the other inexperienced new recruits could stand a chance against Cornelia's Glaston knights.That's why he intended to kidnap her and use her as hostage to force Britania to surrender.

Lelouch left the battlefield made the japanese lost the war is undeniable..

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

And yet you haven't made any valid reasons, please we're here to discuss not to hate

Did you actually read my post? I provided reasons and did not bash Suzaku. There was no Suzaku go to hell or Suzaku die in my post at all, and I didn't exactly expect to win anyone over in the Suzaku thread.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Did you actually read my post? I provided reasons and did not bash Suzaku. There was no Suzaku go to hell or Suzaku die in my post at all, and I didn't exactly expect to win anyone over in the Suzaku thread.

You don't need to actually say 'die Suzaku' or anything of the like, at the very least your post is extremely biased toward Lelouch, and somewhat biased against Suzaku.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Wow, I can't remember the last time I disagreed with so many points in one post.

Always glad to oblige.

It would have been nice if Suzaku grew out of his childish reasoning which he hasn't, which, to be honest, has turned him into a Britannia bitch.

Which childish reasoning? I didn't even cite a single childish reasoning, only analysis. That he was selfish? That he made a choice on what he thought would be best? Both of those are very human choices.

I can understand if you don't like that. But I can't understand it if you don't like Suzaku for it, but don't also detest Lelouch for the same thing. The entire Nunally justification is completely selfish when we learn that no, in fact, Nunally does NOT want a world made through Zero's means. But Lelouch has consistently excused and explained any number of actions for an unwilling subject. If that isn't selfish, if that isn't assuming what he knows best, what is?

If you are talking about the JLF, he integrated in the only members who actually made a difference.

Really? I would have thought that veterans of years of guerilla warfare who just so happened to be on that ship, or fighting on the mountian, might, just might, have been relevant or, gasp, even helpful.

Admit it. You can't prove that he took "only" the good ones. He took Todou and the Four Blades, but that was the only specific selection. Everyone else was either killed by him, killed by the enemy, or absorbed.

-Sorry but the Japanese fought willingly, knowing full well there would be consequences if they lost. How exactly did he know it would fail? He left it in Toudou's charge. I understand that losing a leader is important, but it should not be the deciding factor of a battle.

A couple of points, though I will admit that I believe that the Black Rebellion was doomed to failure regardless.

One-The Japanese fought willingly because Zero went in the the SAZ intending to engineer a disaster, and came out with one. That he had a change of heart in the meantime and made a major mistake doesn't change that yes, in fact, Zero did intend to trick the entire thing from the start. Zero misled the entire population into disaster by framing a blameless woman as a genocidal murderer. The Japanese people were led like sheep to their deaths, just as Zero intended. It may not have been how he intended, and he certainly changed his mind in between, but the facts remain that the Japanese were tricked.

Two- Zero spent an entire season crafting a personality cult that couldn't exist without him, as multiple incidents made plain. Everything from organization to logistics to intelligence revolved around him, and all orders were top to bottom. When you build an entire process around a single man, you should at least expect what will happen when that person is taken out of the loop. Todou's ignorance in Zero's intentions and plan was proof of this problem. Plus, the Lelouch's plan also focused around Cornelia's capture, which didn't happen anyway.

Three-My opinion of his leaving the Black Knights to chase after his sister has been written to great length earlier in this thread. Shortened, it comes up to how moronic it is chase after a moving hostage in the middle of a battle with no plan or backup. If her life is in danger, they can kill her before you arrive. If they intended to use her as a hostage against Zero, they could have aired it live immediately. And even if he stood in front of her, he had no plan to deal with anyone who might, say, hold a gun to her head and threaten to kill her.

-Once again, it's only the volunteers that want to fight for Zero, if you remember from episode 1 the Japanese were praying for Zero's return, exemplified by the bunny girl clinging of a picture of Zero. He created a new country for them, how can you possibly dislike him for that?

How? Because as a viewer, I can remember how the Japanese never came to be a reason for Lelouch until after his sister denied him? Because I remember how it was built on lies and treachery? Because I can see the problems in creating a nation built around one man?

Because to create a new nation, it actually has to survive? Not be ground into dust at its immediate declaration? Zero's claim of the USJ was meaningless without proof of existence?


When it comes down to it, Zero has only once come anywhere close to halfway achieving peace and liberties for the Japanese, and that was over the corpses of the first SAZ. Meanwhile, Suzaku's oh-so-naive working from inside the Britainnian system with the nobility has not once but twice offered the SAZ to the Japanese. You haven't even actually argued that any of my three points for Lelouch were wrong, only trying to cave out caveats to them.

-His status;

A status he works hard for. A status that reflects his sense of justice and order. He wouldn't have been a rolemodel for the Japanese had he been a drunkard, a reckless maniac, or a murderer.

-I think you mean Euphemia and Nunnally's plan.

Which, as I pointed out, proves the validity of his choice to work and change from inside the Britannian system, such as the nobility.

Thankyou for agreeing and clarifying how the most vilified aspect of Suzaku actually has worked (twice!).

-I don't find a redeeming quality trait to be something as obvious as not ordering a massacre.

You should. Standing up to peer pressure in a stressful moment, despite tension and urgings to do so, is no small feat. Suzaku was presented with an opportunity to destroy the Black Knights once and for all. Lelouch would have never been able to build another rebellion after that loss. Suzaku would have been lauded to high heavens by all of Britannia regardless of what the Elevens or Nunally thought, and the rebellion would have been quelled in a heart beat.

Instead, he resisted great temptation and got the rebels away without a single death. Japan was just as peaceful, Britannia got some much needed good PR in Area Eleven, and everyone was more or less happy at the end of the day. That's not just virtuous character, it's effectiveness that the show made clear no other Britannian would have done.

But this isn't about traits, this was about accomplishments via processes. Lelouch's violent revolution (which you immediately doubted would even succede) has come close only once. Suzaku's peaceful means inside the system have handed it over twice.

Yeah, daily executions of his countrymen were committed without him lifting a finger. We know how the Japanese feel about him, they HATE him.

And why are there daily executions? Why do they hate him, when a year ago he rivaled Zero? Because Zero framed himself and Euphie as genocidal murderers, and launched a futile rebellion that led to Britannia clamping down harder than before. That's Lelouch's fault, not Suzaku's.

Which is why we want to see him do it, Lelouch is the underdog and everyone except maybe a few people in this thread want to see him succeed.

What, and Suzaku is any less an underdog in challenging the Britannian system from the inside?

No, that just makes him stupid and naive and a traitor. It's not like anyone could, I don't know, hope for both to succede. Nope, nuhuh, impossible.

[Dean_the_Young]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

Did you actually read my post? I provided reasons and did not bash Suzaku. There was no Suzaku go to hell or Suzaku die in my post at all, and I didn't exactly expect to win anyone over in the Suzaku thread.

Why not? A great majority of the posts are from Suzaku bashers of various thought-levels.

[Orga777]

Damn... Dean, you are a master with words...

[Dean_the_Young]

Was writing a longer thing, but check your PM box (again) in a minute. Keep this more on topic.

[Silver Soul]

It seems like everyone from the Lelouch thread is voicing their opinions on the Suzaku thread

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

It seems like everyone from the Lelouch thread is voicing their opinions on the Suzaku thread

I tried to tell them to go back, but was ignored.

[yezhanquan]

I have a feeling that the source of Suzaku's super human strength, when revealed, will change many people's biased opinion of him. Besides this, I think he's like an open book. How you interpret the book is, of course, something wildy different.

[DN24]

I'm wondering whether or not people attitude toward Suzaku have a lot to do with their background? I think those who was born in a country which was previously a colony or a country that somehow got oppressed seem to have great hatred for Suzaku

[hanseo]

Originally Posted by Silver Soul

It seems like everyone from the Lelouch thread is voicing their opinions on the Suzaku thread

i agree with you

[yezhanquan]

I don't hate him. He's a jock to me. Not too much brains, but has a heart, though that heart may have become quite confused.

[Blue_Mercy]

Well if you want to mark this one down also, I think I just threw up a little after reading your newest post.

Originally Posted by Dean_the_Young

Always glad to oblige.
Which childish reasoning? I didn't even cite a single childish reasoning, only analysis. That he was selfish? That he made a choice on what he thought would be best? Both of those are very human choices.

He wanted to stop the war, so instead of choosing to fight against Britannia he kills his father. Nice thinking you've traded a life fighting for freedom for a life of slavery. He has continued that way of thinking and life of slavery to this day, I feel some pity for his character since he will likely receive a severe bitch slap later on this season in some form.

I can understand if you don't like that. But I can't understand it if you don't like Suzaku for it, but don't also detest Lelouch for the same thing. The entire Nunally justification is completely selfish when we learn that no, in fact, Nunally does NOT want a world made through Zero's means. But Lelouch has consistently excused and explained any number of actions for an unwilling subject. If that isn't selfish, if that isn't assuming what he knows best, what is?

Lelouch has realized his mistakes and is fighting for others now, not just Nunnally.

Really? I would have thought that veterans of years of guerilla warfare who just so happened to be on that ship, or fighting on the mountian, might, just might, have been relevant or, gasp, even helpful.

Admit it. You can't prove that he took "only" the good ones. He took Todou and the Four Blades, but that was the only specific selection. Everyone else was either killed by him, killed by the enemy, or absorbed.

One battle with Cornelia and they are all but dust. They even had support from Todou and and Zero. Yeah I'll admit it, they suck. Period.

A couple of points, though I will admit that I believe that the Black Rebellion was doomed to failure regardless.

One-The Japanese fought willingly because Zero went in the the SAZ intending to engineer a disaster, and came out with one. That he had a change of heart in the meantime and made a major mistake doesn't change that yes, in fact, Zero did intend to trick the entire thing from the start. Zero misled the entire population into disaster by framing a blameless woman as a genocidal murderer. The Japanese people were led like sheep to their deaths, just as Zero intended. It may not have been how he intended, and he certainly changed his mind in between, but the facts remain that the Japanese were tricked.

Two- Zero spent an entire season crafting a personality cult that couldn't exist without him, as multiple incidents made plain. Everything from organization to logistics to intelligence revolved around him, and all orders were top to bottom. When you build an entire process around a single man, you should at least expect what will happen when that person is taken out of the loop. Todou's ignorance in Zero's intentions and plan was proof of this problem. Plus, the Lelouch's plan also focused around Cornelia's capture, which didn't happen anyway.

Three-My opinion of his leaving the Black Knights to chase after his sister has been written to great length earlier in this thread. Shortened, it comes up to how moronic it is chase after a moving hostage in the middle of a battle with no plan or backup. If her life is in danger, they can kill her before you arrive. If they intended to use her as a hostage against Zero, they could have aired it live immediately. And even if he stood in front of her, he had no plan to deal with anyone who might, say, hold a gun to her head and threaten to kill her.

You can't hold up Suzaku changing his mind about killing the mass Zeroes as solid quality point, then criticize Lelouch when he agrees with Euphemia.
Yeah your right he should have confessed right there and told the world that he used a superhuman ability to force Euphemia into massacring the Japanese.

Listen you can blame Lelouch for Euphemia, if it makes you feel better but sooner or later you'll need to get over it. What's done is done.

If there's one thing I won't do its blame Lelouch for wanting to rescue his little sister. If you have a little sister, which I happen to, and you didn't go to rescue her no matter the situation, then we will never see eye to eye.

How? Because as a viewer, I can remember how the Japanese never came to be a reason for Lelouch until after his sister denied him? Because I remember how it was built on lies and treachery? Because I can see the problems in creating a nation built around one man?

Now this is going to be difficult and sound cold, but GROW UP. This is a war and lies and treachery are a part of it, everyone has their own motives for fighting in it even Suzaku knew this when he lied to Nunnally and Lelouch about working in the engineering corps.

Because to create a new nation, it actually has to survive? Not be ground into dust at its immediate declaration? Zero's claim of the USJ was meaningless without proof of existence?

The new Penglai island is the first official territory for the USJ, and it is still standing.

When it comes down to it, Zero has only once come anywhere close to halfway achieving peace and liberties for the Japanese, and that was over the corpses of the first SAZ. Meanwhile, Suzaku's oh-so-naive working from inside the Britainnian system with the nobility has not once but twice offered the SAZ to the Japanese. You haven't even actually argued that any of my three points for Lelouch were wrong, only trying to cave out caveats to them.

Um, the new island has thousands of Japanese living in peace, so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there.

A status he works hard for. A status that reflects his sense of justice and order. He wouldn't have been a rolemodel for the Japanese had he been a drunkard, a reckless maniac, or a murderer.

You mean the status he achieved through selling his ex-best friend to the Emperor. That status?

You should. Standing up to peer pressure in a stressful moment, despite tension and urgings to do so, is no small feat. Suzaku was presented with an opportunity to destroy the Black Knights once and for all. Lelouch would have never been able to build another rebellion after that loss. Suzaku would have been lauded to high heavens by all of Britannia regardless of what the Elevens or Nunally thought, and the rebellion would have been quelled in a heart beat.

Sorry, I don't and it's not, so we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

But this isn't about traits, this was about accomplishments via processes. Lelouch's violent revolution (which you immediately doubted would even succede) has come close only once. Suzaku's peaceful means inside the system have handed it over twice.
And why are there daily executions? Why do they hate him, when a year ago he rivaled Zero? Because Zero framed himself and Euphie as genocidal murderers, and launched a futile rebellion that led to Britannia clamping down harder than before. That's Lelouch's fault, not Suzaku's.

Once again see above, for getting over the Euphemia tragedy.

What, and Suzaku is any less an underdog in challenging the Britannian system from the inside?

No, that just makes him stupid and naive and a traitor. It's not like anyone could, I don't know, hope for both to succede. Nope, nuhuh, impossible.

Now that he has effectively sold his friend into lordship, I see him as much less of an underdog than Lelouch fighting a world power.

[DN24]

Blue_Mercy.May I ask which country are you from? I want to know to see if my theory is right...

[Orga777]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

He wanted to stop the war, so instead of choosing to fight against Britannia he kills his father. Nice thinking you've traded a life fighting for freedom for a life of slavery.

First off, he was TEN. How many ten year olds do you know that actually know how the world works? He though that war was bad and that killing off the entire nation was too much.

Second. He regrets killing his father to this day. So the fact that you bring that up is not a good one.

Third, it isn't exactly slavery. They are oppressed for sure, but he is trying to change that so again, what is the point of bringing it up if he is trying to do something about it?

Lelouch has realized his mistakes and is fighting for others now, not just Nunnally.

Yeah. It took a mental breakdown and Kallen slapping some sense into him for him to realize that the world doesn't revolve around him.

One battle with Cornelia and they are all but dust. They even had support from Todou and and Zero. Yeah I'll admit it, they suck. Period.

Did you even WATCH that episode? They were completely surrounded and outnumbered about 3-1. There was nothing they could do. Also, Zero didn't go there to back them up, he went there with the intention of capturing Cornelia and taking down as many of the JLF forces as he could. After all, it was stated that the JLF could absorb the Black Knights rather than the other way around originally.

You can't hold up Suzaku changing his mind about killing the mass Zeroes as solid quality point, then criticize Lelouch when he agrees with Euphemia.
Yeah your right he should have confessed right there and told the world that he used a superhuman ability to force Euphemia into massacring the Japanese.

He could have said something else. Not cause a battle that was going to be lost and end up badly.

Listen you can blame Lelouch for Euphemia, if it makes you feel better but sooner or later you'll need to get over it. What's done is done.

Right... Lelouch said the same thing to a pissed off Suzaku... And got round-housed kicked in the face for it. Life doesn't work that way.

If there's one thing I won't do its blame Lelouch for wanting to rescue his little sister. If you have a little sister, which I happen to, and you didn't go to rescue her no matter the situation, then we will never see eye to eye.

That isn't what he is saying. Although this is interesting. He said what done is done with Euphie, but he can't think the same for his own sister if she is in danger/killed. What a selfish prick.

Now this is going to be difficult and sound cold, but GROW UP. This is a war and lies and treachery are a part of it, everyone has their own motives for fighting in it even Suzaku knew this when he lied to Nunnally and Lelouch about working in the engineering corps.

Except Suzaku doesn't manipulate his loved ones or cause disasters with his lies.

Um, the new island has thousands of Japanese living in peace, so I'm going to go ahead and disagree with you there.

An artificial peace. They have all pretty much been drafted by Zero.

You mean the status he achieved through selling his ex-best friend to the Emperor. That status?

Right. His 'best friend' that killed his love interest, caused a slaughter not only at the SAZ, but at the Black Rebellion, and manipulated him for his own selfish gains. Try again.

Now that he has effectively sold his friend into lordship, I see him as much less of an underdog than Lelouch fighting a world power.

He may be a KoR now, but he is still not totally respected. if you watched Episode 8 of R2, you would know that. He still needs to break some more barriers.

[Blue_Mercy]

Originally Posted by DN24

Blue_Mercy.May I ask which country are you from? I want to know to see if my theory is right...

The United States of course, but remember forum rules if you have more questions send a message instead of using the boards.

[Eagles]

Originally Posted by Blue_Mercy

He wanted to stop the war, so instead of choosing to fight against Britannia he kills his father. Nice thinking you've traded a life fighting for freedom for a life of slavery.

Yes, because things would be so much better for Japan had Genbu's plan gone through .

[SoldierOfDarkness]

He wanted to stop the war, so instead of choosing to fight against Britannia he kills his father. Nice thinking you've traded a life fighting for freedom for a life of slavery. He has continued that way of thinking and life of slavery to this day, I feel some pity for his character since he will likely receive a severe bitch slap later on this season in some form.

Hmm so I guess you think that all the nations that ever got their butts handed to them in history were idiots for surrending to the enemy rather than fight to the last man.