Diablo III

[Myssa Rei]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, double elite packs are more Blizzard retardation design as opposed to you making a mistake.

I wouldn't be so frustrated so much if they spawned far from each other, but in Kulle's Sanctuary (in my tries yesterday and early today) they spawned either close together, or literally on top of each other. And as I mentioned before, all those narrow corridors make it hard to do any proper kiting, ESPECIALLY if they have vortex and waller.

[Marina2]

I have a question. What does boss's "enrage" do?

I haven't play inferno yet.

[zzhk]

For the Butcher, the entire floor lights on fire.

[problemedchild]

Originally Posted by Marina2

I have a question. What does boss's "enrage" do?

I haven't play inferno yet.

All bosses and elites have enrage timers in D3, a shitty carry over from WoW that Blizzard deemed to be "fun." What this basically means is that after a certain predetermined time passes during a boss fight, the boss starts using a certain skill progressively more until it's impossible do deal with such a mechanic that the end result is death. For example, the Act 1 boss Butcher's fighting area has fire on the floor that must be dodged, but after the fight passes the enrage time limit, the entire floor simply lights up and makes it impossible to dodge. This for the most part, causes most people to die. I honestly have no clue why Blizzard thought that an enrage timer would be "fun" in an ARPG, but it's in D3.

Farmed Act 3 again after the patch this week. After 15 elites and 2 bosses, net result was 0 ilvl 63 rares, 3 ilvl 62 rares and about 4 ilvl 61 rares. I don't foresee myself playing this game much longer.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Marina2

I have a question. What does boss's "enrage" do?

I haven't play inferno yet.

Blizzard intentionally making uniques and champions even harder if you don't kill them after a certain time limit. So if you have trouble killing them, Blizzard made sure to make them impossible to kill.

An entirely insane game mechanic that does nothing to aid gameplay. People who are already having a hard time doesn't need to be further punished for it. Proof that Blizzard is dead as a company and they are going the way of Bioware.

The day a game company no longer care about making a good game, is the day it ceases to be a game company.

[Flying Dagger]

Enrage timer stop becoming an issue once you have enough resistances and LoH... somewhat a poor design from their part: or maybe intentional for the lower dps melee tanks.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Blizzard intentionally making uniques and champions even harder if you don't kill them after a certain time limit. So if you have trouble killing them, Blizzard made sure to make them impossible to kill.

An entirely insane game mechanic that does nothing to aid gameplay. People who are already having a hard time doesn't need to be further punished for it. Proof that Blizzard is dead as a company and they are going the way of Bioware.

The day a game company no longer care about making a good game, is the day it ceases to be a game company.

For enrage I'd point to stupidity instead of malice (Though high amounts) because they didn't test inferno out, and thus they didn't know it was broken.

Of course, this is why you shouldn't release something untested and also brag about what a shitty job you did (This is basically how they described inferno-- "it's so hard we didn't even play it!")

Time limits simply have no place inside a video game like Diablo 3. It worked in old platformers such as Mario. but those games were intentionally meant to be fast paced and you could easily skip the majority of hazards. If an elite pack in D3 decides to sit their ass around the exit, you can't just jump over them, for example. You also don't have to "equip" yourself in a platformer. Time limits are awful in games that encourage free exploration.

Or you could be more creative. The Mega Man X series frequently has boss fights where the boss fights change patterns and abilities when they are about to die. This forces quick reactions and the player to play better. (Actaully, one of the worse games did have an enrage timer basically but that almost never happened and like I said it was a bad idea)

Of course, Blizzard doesn't want you to play better, react faster, or learn. They want you to go to the auction house and buy stuff, as the game should be about gear, right? Stop using skill, that's an exploit!

How many old games have you seen that let you button mash to escape a hold or a trap? That's not "skill" of course, but it's called putting the player in control. It separates the good players from the not so good ones. Hell, just look at Starcraft or Starcraft 2, where a player can perform all sorts of tricks just through rapid clicking and dexterity. And that's an RTS!

Tl;dr Developers need to play their own fucking game.

[Firefly00]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

For enrage I'd point to stupidity instead of malice (Though high amounts) because they didn't test inferno out, and thus they didn't know it was broken.

Of course, this is why you shouldn't release something untested and also brag about what a shitty job you did (This is basically how they described inferno-- "it's so hard we didn't even play it!")

If they actually used wording like that as an advertising point, I'd suggest drug testing. On the other hand it does leave those making claims like wide open for the simple counter of, "how do you know it's so hard if you didn't play it?"

Time limits simply have no place inside a video game like Diablo 3...

Or you could be more creative. The Mega Man X series frequently has boss fights where the boss fights change patterns and abilities when they are about to die. This forces quick reactions and the player to play better. (Actaully, one of the worse games did have an enrage timer basically but that almost never happened and like I said it was a bad idea)

Perhaps the boss fight referenced in this post would qualify as 'creative'. There is an 'enrage timer' that'll kill you if you dally overlong... but it can (and must) be turned against the boss to win.

Hell, just look at Starcraft or Starcraft 2, where a player can perform all sorts of tricks just through rapid clicking and dexterity. And that's an RTS!

Speaking of RTS, I always wondered how come the degree of 'back-end' semi-automation seen in Total Annihilation never caught on...

[aohige]

Well, the concept of an enrage timer isn't inheritently bad.
In a progressive raid environment, it's used to make sure your team is geared enough to proceed to the next boss.

This way, it stalls the progress of the team so they won't be stuck against an impossible foe afterwards.
They have a very specific goal that's visible, transparent, and easy to comprehend.
I had nothing agaist gear check enrage timers in WoW, and yes, even those really challenging bosses in Firelands (The final patch's Deathwing ones were a joke).

However, it doesn't translate well at all into a simple hack & slash game like this.
Having enrage timers on elite packs as well as bosses make no sense, as the original intent of such mechanics isn't even in this game. It feels like the design team simply imported it from the WoW team, without realizing what the mechanic is there for.

[Skane]

Originally Posted by Myssa Rei

~~ Anyway, I defeated Zoltun Kulle, and now am set against Belial. Any advice? I found that Kulle wasn't a problem using my old setup, except I swapped out Air Ally for Earth Ally, and Blinding Flash for Sweeping Wind, but not really sure if this will work for Belial himself.

If you have enough life regeneration capabilities, you can basically face-tank the fist pounding and the breath attacks. Just spam your mantra every 3s when he's fist pounding you to help mitigate the damage. Do not use Serenity.

Save Serenity for the meteor phase. Attempt to dodge the meteors and pop Serenity when you make a mistake and get hit by one.

When the meteor phase is over, proceed back to face-tanking.

Cheers.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Firefly00

If they actually used wording like that as an advertising point, I'd suggest drug testing. On the other hand it does leave those making claims like wide open for the simple counter of, "how do you know it's so hard if you didn't play it?"

They didn't, but they were close. They bascially said they made it too hard for their testers... and doubled it. That can't be considered good design by any means. And obviously when you don't know how to beat your own game... I mean many old school games were tough as hell, but the designers thought of solutions regardless of how obtuse they were. It was the product of a functioning mind.

Diablo 3's difficulty? It reeks of a badly designed ROM hack.

They also claimed that hell mode was the last real difficulty and inferno was supposed to be the elite. However, in a gear based game like Diablo (where there really is nothing to do after you reach 60), nobody can accept this. People are always going to aim for the highest end gear-- this is the point. Without the ability to build wealth and get items, you can't progress. And grinding hell is never a sane option. If you remove the gear from every character, there's no difference between them besides class and level! So it's a dumb decision considering any one of them played D1 or D2.

Perhaps the boss fight referenced in this post would qualify as 'creative'. There is an 'enrage timer' that'll kill you if you dally overlong... but it can (and must) be turned against the boss to win.

Hmm, I'll check the video out soon enough-- watching something else.

Speaking of RTS, I always wondered how come the degree of 'back-end' semi-automation seen in Total Annihilation never caught on...

What do you mean, btw?

[Firefly00]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

What do you mean, btw?

It's been a while since I got to play it, but here're a couple of things I remember from Total Annihilation:

• being able to assign rally patrols - not just rally points - to production structures. Hypothetical example: having an airbase whose 'rally point' is in fact a patrol line just outside of your base. If you need to replace any of those gunships, just tell the base to spit them out, and they'll know where to go;
• being able to specify the behavior (agressive, defensive, etc.) of all units produced by a given structure. Since the point of the gunships in the above example is to patrol a base, you'd set the producing airbase to 'defensive' so they don't go chasing targets of opportunity across the map

Supreme Commander, as I understand, expanded upon this further. With such back-end 'semi-automation' up and running, you could focus the majority of the 'rapid clicking and dexterity' on the actual battles.

[Duo Maxwell]

Originally Posted by problemedchild

All bosses and elites have enrage timers in D3, a shitty carry over from WoW that Blizzard deemed to be "fun." What this basically means is that after a certain predetermined time passes during a boss fight, the boss starts using a certain skill progressively more until it's impossible do deal with such a mechanic that the end result is death. For example, the Act 1 boss Butcher's fighting area has fire on the floor that must be dodged, but after the fight passes the enrage time limit, the entire floor simply lights up and makes it impossible to dodge. This for the most part, causes most people to die. I honestly have no clue why Blizzard thought that an enrage timer would be "fun" in an ARPG, but it's in D3.

I thought the one in Butcher is fun, honestly, because when I knew about it, I run less to make space for more time to deal damage, and when the whole floor is on fire, it's time to drop all of your running and focus completely on damaging the boss. Likewise when playing with team, we just spread out so only one have to dodge the Butcher's attack. If anything I must say the butcher is the most fun boss in Diablo 3.

But the enrage timer on champion and elite is stupid.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by Skane

If you have enough life regeneration capabilities, you can basically face-tank the fist pounding and the breath attacks. Just spam your mantra every 3s when he's fist pounding you to help mitigate the damage. Do not use Serenity.

Save Serenity for the meteor phase. Attempt to dodge the meteors and pop Serenity when you make a mistake and get hit by one.

When the meteor phase is over, proceed back to face-tanking.

Cheers.

Pretty much this.
I relied on LoH and self-heals more, but basically just stood there tanking all his hits other than "whole room goes green" phase.
Only hit serenity if you're hit once, and backed to no opening during the said phase.

If you dodge during the regular pounding phases, you won't kill him fast enough and boom goes the enrage timer.

[Kokukirin]

What I don't like about enrage timer is that it discriminates against the defensive builds. I used to run locust swarm on my WD, but the Butcher's enrage timer effectively forced me to switch to a more damaging spell. Combine that with the NV stack mechanism that effectively forbids switching skill mid-game, Locust Swarm becomes much less viable, until I get better DPS anyways.

Blizzard claims to encourage build diversity. And then they push out enrage timer that discourages defensive/kiting builds. It makes no sense.

[Duo Maxwell]

Build diversity is relative. If you want every build to be viable, might as well put a dummy as the boss. I used to build my Barb with 5 defensive skills and 1 primary skill for tanking, but doesn't that mean it should work when I'm soloing.

And I don't know how much defesive/kiting you talking about, but I think my Wiz with only 2 offensive spells (shock pulse, meteor) work pretty well for act 2 Inferno.

[Kokukirin]

Originally Posted by Duo Maxwell

Build diversity is relative. If you want every build to be viable, might as well put a dummy as the boss.

What did I just read here? There is nothing relative in build diversity. If more builds are viable, then there is more diversity. This is a totally objective measure that you can show in statistics. Remember Blizzard throwing out random statistics on how the most popular build is used by like 1% of players in Inferno? When 90% of WD use one of Zombie Bear, Dire Bats, and Splinter Darts. That means there isn't enough diversity for the class.

I used to build my Barb with 5 defensive skills and 1 primary skill for tanking, but doesn't that mean it should work when I'm soloing.

And why not? Some WDs have only Zombie Bears/Dire Bat as the sole offensive skill. I don't play Barb so I cannot say for your class. But there is nothing inherently wrong with a build with mostly defensive skills. They already suffer from less efficient killing speed. That's the risk vs reward factor. There is no need of enrage timer to further penalize it.

And I don't know how much defesive/kiting you talking about, but I think my Wiz with only 2 offensive spells (shock pulse, meteor) work pretty well for act 2 Inferno.

Let me expand on the example i used. Locust Swarm is a DoT skill that automatically spread to nearby enemies. Its damage is not spectacular, but you don't need to aim and keep damaging enemies while running around. I also have Splinter Darts for more damage when I have some distance. It usually takes a while to take down Champs and Bosses because you cannot stack Locust Swarm. It worked ok before the enrage timer, just a bit slow. But now that enrage timer is in, it isn't possible any more. I have to either spend a lot more in AH to get higher DPS, probably 50% more than before, or change the build. I ended up switching to Rain of Toads.

[Duo Maxwell]

I know, I'm using a WD, too. My 2 main primary spamming skills are Fire Bomb and Poison Cloud, and I find they are as good as Splinter Darts, so I don't really know how do you think there is no diversity in build. People always use build that is easier to use. I mean, people are telling the Wizard's Twister is shit, but it's the best thing I came across as a Wizard.

It's just that people only choose build that is posted on the net or considered optimal. I find a lot of strange build that even work on Inferno.

And I said enrage timer is stupid, but the one on Butcher is nice addition. I never thing enrage timer on champion/elite pack is good, because you can't guess what you are going to meet.

[Wigwams]

i think blizz should change their enrage into adding +1 affix to the mobs.

[aohige]

How about "properly reset when you die"? That would be nice.

It's really annoying when you get the "time out" debuff the second you come back alive.