News Stories

[Xellos-_^]

Army Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl’s recovery after five years in captivity has rekindled anger among some of his military peers over how he came to fall into enemy hands and the price the United States has paid to get him back.
Bergdahl, 28, is believed to have slipped away from his platoon’s small outpost in Afghanistan’s Paktika province on June 30, 2009, after growing disillusioned with the U.S. military’s war effort. He was captured shortly afterward by enemy forces and held captive in Pakistan by insurgents affiliated with the Taliban. At the time, an entire U.S. military division and thousands of Afghan soldiers and police officers devoted weeks to searching for him, and some soldiers resented risking their lives for someone they considered a deserter.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...y.html?hpid=z1

Army Sergeant Bowe Bergdahl was freed by the Taliban over the weekend after they held him for nearly five years, in exchange for five Taliban leaders, who will spend a year cooling their heels in Qatar. You might have heard about it on the news.
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Chances are you haven’t heard of the six soldiers who died hunting for him after he went missing, according to military officials. Now that Bergdahl has been sprung—in exchange for five senior Taliban officials, who had been imprisoned at Guantanamo—soldiers who served with Bergdahl are grumbling that he deserted and shouldn’t be hailed as a hero, especially given the resulting cost in American lives.

http://time.com/2809352/bowe-bergdah...-army-taliban/

someone want to explain what Obama is trying to pull here? How much political mileage can you get form trading 5 senior commanders for 1 deserter?

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

someone want to explain what Obama is trying to pull here? How much political mileage can you get form trading 5 senior commanders for 1 deserter?

None if not a negative mileage.

If you ask me, he's putting his potential successor in the Democratic Party into the hot seat should the mid-term election this year and then 2014 both end up being losing elections.

[risingstar3110]

To be honest, desertion does happen. I means of course the scale and war was totally different, but for example during Vietnam war, the recorded of desertion was actually 14.9 per thousand soldiers in 1966, then rise to 73.5 per thousands in 1971.

That is actual desertion. AWOL (Absence Without Leave) like in the article, in 1971 was almost 2.5 times as much: 176.9 cases per thousands



Does not make their life worth less through. Even with, let say only 10% of Vietnam low figure (1.5 per thousands), but with 831.576 US military personnel has served in Afghanistan, you will expect a record of ~1245 desertions has happened during the war there. This is just one of them

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

someone want to explain what Obama is trying to pull here? How much political mileage can you get form trading 5 senior commanders for 1 deserter?

Hard to say, but given the situation, any actions could had ended up with critics from GOP affiliate. To make the exchange or not, to make the result public or not, there would always be someone to say than Obama didn't do the right thing and he should be impeached...

Damn if you do, damn if you don't .

[maplehurry]

Back in the days when Bush was in office, I remember people discussing how Bush would never make such trade even if his daughter's kidnapped by terrorists.

[kuroishinigami]

So when you're a deserter, you cease to be citizens of USA now? Or is a citizen of USA's life right now is less than freeing 5 Taliban leader?

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

So when you're a deserter, you cease to be citizens of USA now? Or is a citizen of USA's life right now is less than freeing 5 Taliban leader?

Back when the WoT was going strong, there's the motto: "You don't negotiate with terrorists."

[LoveYouSaber]

I was surprised as well, but then weren't these 5 Taliban leaders captured like over seven to eight years ago? I think they may have lost influence due to the years, and that's why the US deemed it was OK to release them. And who knows, maybe sending them back might lead to destablisation amongst the terrorists, with old leaders versus new leaders.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by LoveYouSaber

I was surprised as well, but then weren't these 5 Taliban leaders captured like over seven to eight years ago? I think they may have lost influence due to the years, and that's why the US deemed it was OK to release them. And who knows, maybe sending them back might lead to destablisation amongst the terrorists, with old leaders versus new leaders.

Yea, it's either that or there's some secret conditions that's not revealed to the public. A one-to-five trade by itself makes the US government looks pretty weak...

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by maplehurry

Back when the WoT was going strong, there's the motto: "You don't negotiate with terrorists."

That always sound good on paper and speechs but reality is a bit more tricky.

Plus, even Republican Idol Reagan did it in his time

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

someone want to explain what Obama is trying to pull here? How much political mileage can you get form trading 5 senior commanders for 1 deserter?

There's probably a covert op of some kind happening behind the scenes that was worth the political risk. The US government runs a lot of them, but very few leak to the public for scrutiny. For example, the US runs many prisons outside of the country (so called "black sites"), but the only one most people know about is Gitmo.

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

So when you're a deserter, you cease to be citizens of USA now? Or is a citizen of USA's life right now is less than freeing 5 Taliban leader?

when your desertion cost 6 other soldiers their lives and put countless others at risk. imo, you are on your own.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by kuroishinigami

So when you're a deserter, you cease to be citizens of USA now? Or is a citizen of USA's life right now is less than freeing 5 Taliban leader?

It’s quite a bit more complicated than that.

First off, desertion, especially during wartime in a combat zone, is a rather serious crime – one that is punishable by death. The fact that 6 other soldiers were killed as a direct result of his desertion (and who knows how many others indirectly as assets were diverted and operations disrupted to look for him) only makes it worse.

Prisoner swaps are also typically done on an equal basis, you don’t trade 1 enlisted soldier for 5 senior leaders, this also sets a terrible precedent – what’s to stop them from kidnapping tourists and demand the release of every prisoners we’re holding?

Those of us in the military knows how seriously we take the phrase “leave no one behind”, it’s a commitment that many have given their life to honor. For the rank and file soldiers who served with him to come out so strongly against him speak volumes, especially since POWs are typically held in high regard. To see someone who betrayed and abandoned his fellow soldiers being treated like a hero is a slap to the face of everyone who’s ever served.

[KiraYamatoFan]

Originally Posted by kyp275

It’s quite a bit more complicated than that.

First off, desertion, especially during wartime in a combat zone, is a rather serious crime – one that is punishable by death. The fact that 6 other soldiers were killed as a direct result of his desertion (and who knows how many others indirectly as assets were diverted and operations disrupted to look for him) only makes it worse.

Prisoner swaps are also typically done on an equal basis, you don’t trade 1 enlisted soldier for 5 senior leaders, this also sets a terrible precedent – what’s to stop them from kidnapping tourists and demand the release of every prisoners we’re holding?

Those of us in the military knows how seriously we take the phrase “leave no one behind”, it’s a commitment that many have given their life to honor. For the rank and file soldiers who served with him to come out so strongly against him speak volumes, especially since POWs are typically held in high regard. To see someone who betrayed and abandoned his fellow soldiers being treated like a hero is a slap to the face of everyone who’s ever served.

For all the elements mentioned here, the reason is self-evident on why that soldier should have been left to rot. This guy has deserted and was disavowed by everyone else left in his squad.

For the record, I think Obama made a huge mistake there.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by kyp275

Prisoner swaps are also typically done on an equal basis, you don’t trade 1 enlisted soldier for 5 senior leaders, this also sets a terrible precedent – what’s to stop them from kidnapping tourists and demand the release of every prisoners we’re holding?

I have two issues with what you are saying:
1 The equal basic of prisoner swapping. That did work much in the past, with two states (or more)at war with large number of prisoners on each side, but this situation it's a state with a large number of prisoners and a group of insurgent/terrorist with only one prisoner. It's kind of sick to say but in that case, rarity increase value and it don't work only with the US, Israel do have the same issue.

2 About they trying to do the same trick again:
Weren't they already trying to kill or capture American before? As the tourists, who are dumb enough to go in Afghanistan or the tribal region of Pakistan in vacation?

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

I have two issues with what you are saying:
1 The equal basic of prisoner swapping. That did work much in the past, with two states (or more)at war with large number of prisoners on each side, but this situation it's a state with a large number of prisoners and a group of insurgent/terrorist with only one prisoner. It's kind of sick to say but in that case, rarity increase value and it don't work only with the US, Israel do have the same issue.

2 About they trying to do the same trick again:
Weren't they already trying to kill or capture American before? As the tourists, who are dumb enough to go in Afghanistan or the tribal region of Pakistan in vacation?

well, there were those 3 idiots form Berkeley who wanted hike in iraq along the Iranian border.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by kyp275

It’s quite a bit more complicated than that.

First off, desertion, especially during wartime in a combat zone, is a rather serious crime – one that is punishable by death. The fact that 6 other soldiers were killed as a direct result of his desertion (and who knows how many others indirectly as assets were diverted and operations disrupted to look for him) only makes it worse.

Prisoner swaps are also typically done on an equal basis, you don’t trade 1 enlisted soldier for 5 senior leaders, this also sets a terrible precedent – what’s to stop them from kidnapping tourists and demand the release of every prisoners we’re holding?

Those of us in the military knows how seriously we take the phrase “leave no one behind”, it’s a commitment that many have given their life to honor. For the rank and file soldiers who served with him to come out so strongly against him speak volumes, especially since POWs are typically held in high regard. To see someone who betrayed and abandoned his fellow soldiers being treated like a hero is a slap to the face of everyone who’s ever served.

Wait, you guys still shoot deserters there?

[ChainLegacy]

You don't need to treat him like a hero, but give him a break with the criticism. 5 years in captivity by the Taliban is probably enough punishment for 1000 desertions. He lost five years, but he's probably also lost a good chunk of his emotional health permanently.

[kyp275]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

It's kind of sick to say but in that case, rarity increase value and it don't work only with the US, Israel do have the same issue.

Rather unfortunate, yes

2 About they trying to do the same trick again:
Weren't they already trying to kill or capture American before? As the tourists, who are dumb enough to go in Afghanistan or the tribal region of Pakistan in vacation?

It's always been killing, but now what's to stop their affiliated terrorist groups (which is pretty much everywhere in the world) from kidnapping tourists in, say, Indonesia and try to ransom them for prisoners?

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

Wait, you guys still shoot deserters there?

I don't think any has been executed in a long time, but the point was that it's a capital crime.

Originally Posted by ChainLegacy

You don't need to treat him like a hero, but give him a break with the criticism. 5 years in captivity by the Taliban is probably enough punishment for 1000 desertions. He lost five years, but he's probably also lost a good chunk of his emotional health permanently.

I'd give him a break once he brings back those that died trying to find him, and since that's impossible, no, I'm not going to give him a break.

There are some things you just cannot do to your fellow soldiers, and causing their deaths directly through your action, a traitorous one at that, is pretty much on the top of that list.

[kuroishinigami]

Exactly. That's my problem actually with the criticism. It's true that he's definitely no hero, and maybe he does deserve death penalty for deserting(although I personally against death penalty. People can get cold feet/breakdown when faced with harshness of war, so desertion doesn't deserve death penalty. I'm sure the people who served in the frontline can understand this better than me), but you can punish him after he come back to his homeland, not let him(probably) tortured and rotting in foreign land under enemy's hand.

When you start to judge the worth of people life by his past deed, you're heading toward slippery slope already. What's next? Bill Gate will be worth 10 prisoners while your average citizen/Donald Sterling will only worth 1 prisoner because Bill Gate does more good to the world by donating a lot of his money?