The Syria Crisis

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The Sarin would be no more dangerous than backpack bombs. At this point old school explosives is far more effective at inciting terror than chemical weapons that are far less reliable and harder to deploy.

I don't know if you are right on this one. The psychological inpact of such weapon on the public ( and de facto the politician) isn't much know given the very few attacks of such kind, no ?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

I don't know if you are right on this one. The psychological inpact of such weapon on the public ( and de facto the politician) isn't much know given the very few attacks of such kind, no ?

We DO know the psychological impact of young men and women being sent home in bodybags. And all for no noticeable difference made. I would love for you to make the argument that military occupation of Syria and all the extra death and destruction it will definitely cause, is somehow worth the "possible" risk of terrorists using a different weapon to kill the same amount of people as before.

Intervention in Syria right now, with no "mission accomplished" plausible or in sight, is just throwing lives away. That's my argument. Now you have to argue that I am wrong, and that those extra dead bodies on both sides would be worth it, even if it means occupation of an unstable nation where Americans are not wanted, for the next decade.

[Badkarma 1]

Courtesy of the CDC:Facts About Sarin
What sarin is
Sarin is a human-made chemical warfare agent classified as a nerve agent. Nerve agents are the most toxic and rapidly acting of the known chemical warfare agents. They are similar to certain kinds of pesticides (insect killers) called organophosphates in terms of how they work and what kind of harmful effects they cause. However, nerve agents are much more potent than organophosphate pesticides.
Sarin originally was developed in 1938 in Germany as a pesticide.
Sarin is a clear, colorless, and tasteless liquid that has no odor in its pure form. However, sarin can evaporate into a vapor (gas) and spread into the environment.
Sarin is also known as GB.
Where sarin is found and how it is used
Sarin and other nerve agents may have been used in chemical warfare during the Iran-Iraq War in the 1980s.
Sarin was used in two terrorist attacks in Japan in 1994 and 1995.
Sarin is not found naturally in the environment.
How people can be exposed to sarin
Following release of sarin into the air, people can be exposed through skin contact or eye contact. They can also be exposed by breathing air that contains sarin.
Sarin mixes easily with water, so it could be used to poison water. Following release of sarin into water, people can be exposed by touching or drinking water that contains sarin.
Following contamination of food with sarin, people can be exposed by eating the contaminated food.
A person’s clothing can release sarin for about 30 minutes after it has come in contact with sarin vapor, which can lead to exposure of other people.
Because sarin breaks down slowly in the body, people who are repeatedly exposed to sarin may suffer more harmful health effects.
Because sarin vapor is heavier than air, it will sink to low-lying areas and create a greater exposure hazard there.
How sarin works
The extent of poisoning caused by sarin depends on the amount of sarin to which a person was exposed, how the person was exposed, and the length of time of the exposure.
Symptoms will appear within a few seconds after exposure to the vapor form of sarin and within a few minutes up to 18 hours after exposure to the liquid form.
All the nerve agents cause their toxic effects by preventing the proper operation of the chemical that acts as the body’s “off switch” for glands and muscles. Without an “off switch,” the glands and muscles are constantly being stimulated. They may tire and no longer be able to sustain breathing function.
Sarin is the most volatile of the nerve agents, which means that it can easily and quickly evaporate from a liquid into a vapor and spread into the environment. People can be exposed to the vapor even if they do not come in contact with the liquid form of sarin.
Because it evaporates so quickly, sarin presents an immediate but short-lived threat.
Immediate signs and symptoms of sarin exposure
People may not know that they were exposed because sarin has no odor.
People exposed to a low or moderate dose of sarin by breathing contaminated air, eating contaminated food, drinking contaminated water, or touching contaminated surfaces may experience some or all of the following symptoms within seconds to hours of exposure:
Runny nose
Watery eyes
Small, pinpoint pupils
Eye pain
Blurred vision
Drooling and excessive sweating
Cough
Chest tightness
Rapid breathing
Diarrhea
Increased urination
Confusion
Drowsiness
Weakness
Headache
Nausea, vomiting, and/or abdominal pain
Slow or fast heart rate
Low or high blood pressure
Even a small drop of sarin on the skin can cause sweating and muscle twitching where sarin touched the skin.
Exposure to large doses of sarin by any route may result in the following harmful health effects:
Loss of consciousness
Convulsions
Paralysis
Respiratory failure possibly leading to death
Showing these signs and symptoms does not necessarily mean that a person has been exposed to sarin.
What the long-term health effects are
Mild or moderately exposed people usually recover completely. Severely exposed people are not likely to survive. Unlike some organophosphate pesticides, nerve agents have not been associated with neurological problems lasting more than 1 to 2 weeks after the exposure.

How people can protect themselves, and what they should do if they are exposed to sarin
Recovery from sarin exposure is possible with treatment, but the antidotes available must be used quickly to be effective. Therefore, the best thing to do is avoid exposure:
Leave the area where the sarin was released and get to fresh air. Quickly moving to an area where fresh air is available is highly effective in reducing the possibility of death from exposure to sarin vapor.
If the sarin release was outdoors, move away from the area where the sarin was released. Go to the highest ground possible, because sarin is heavier than air and will sink to low-lying areas.
If the sarin release was indoors, get out of the building.
If people think they may have been exposed, they should remove their clothing, rapidly wash their entire body with soap and water, and get medical care as quickly as possible.
Removing and disposing of clothing:
Quickly take off clothing that has liquid sarin on it. Any clothing that has to be pulled over the head should be cut off the body instead of pulled over the head. If possible, seal the clothing in a plastic bag. Then seal the first plastic bag in a second plastic bag. Removing and sealing the clothing in this way will help protect people from any chemicals that might be on their clothes.
If clothes were placed in plastic bags, inform either the local or state health department or emergency personnel upon their arrival. Do not handle the plastic bags.
If helping other people remove their clothing, try to avoid touching any contaminated areas, and remove the clothing as quickly as possible.
Washing the body:
As quickly as possible, wash any liquid sarin from the skin with large amounts of soap and water. Washing with soap and water will help protect people from any chemicals on their bodies.
Rinse the eyes with plain water for 10 to 15 minutes if they are burning or if vision is blurred.
If sarin has been swallowed, do not induce vomiting or give fluids to drink.
Seek medical attention immediately. Dial 911 and explain what has happened.
How sarin exposure is treated
Treatment consists of removing sarin from the body as soon as possible and providing supportive medical care in a hospital setting. Antidotes are available for sarin. They are most useful if given as soon as possible after exposure.

How people can get more information about sarin
People can contact one of the following:

Regional poison control center: 1-800-222-1222
Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
Public Response Hotline (CDC)
800-CDC-INFO
888-232-6348 (TTY)
E-mail inquiries: cdcinfo@cdc.gov
This fact sheet is based on CDC's best current information. It may be updated as new information becomes available.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) protects people’s health and safety by preventing and controlling diseases and injuries; enhances health decisions by providing credible information on critical health issues; and promotes healthy living through strong partnerships with local, national, and international organizations.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

What is a bomb: a device delivering shrapnel at lethal velocities via sudden increase in volume via gas production.

How to protect against it: Don't be near a bomb. What can they do when facing an exploding bomb? Nothing. Hope you don't die.


My point?
Just posting a large pile of text about Sarin is NOT a reason to go to war with Syria.

[SaintessHeart]

In the military, the standard protocol to alert for gas (shouting "Gas!Gas!Gas!") is when you smell something funny. So even when your buddy farts something exotic after eating a snake, the whole squadron dons their gas masks.

There is no way to detect or avoid a gas attack - it all depends on the gas concentration in the area of effect. So what VCV says is right - just by posting its effects and usage isn't enough reason to fight against someone who uses chemical warfare.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by SaintessHeart

In the military, the standard protocol to alert for gas (shouting "Gas!Gas!Gas!") is when you smell something funny. So even when your buddy farts something exotic after eating a snake, the whole squadron dons their gas masks.

There is no way to detect or avoid a gas attack - it all depends on the gas concentration in the area of effect. So what VCV says is right - just by posting its effects and usage isn't enough reason to fight against someone who uses chemical warfare.

One big issue is that even if the rebels win, there is no reason to believe they won't sell the chemical weapons to Al Qaeda afterwards. At least one rebel group have pledged allegiance to it. The only way to "secure" the chemical weapons is by literally have another Afghanistan style occupation and puppet government. And we know that doesn't work for anybody.

[AnimeFan188]

C-17 from Dover AFB “landed at an undisclosed location” to supply Syrian rebels:

"A C-17 from Dover Air Force Base has delivered the first batch of U.S. aid to
Syrian rebels on Apr. 30."

See:

http://alert5.com/2013/05/03/c-17-fr...syrian-rebels/

[Badkarma 1]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

What is a bomb: a device delivering shrapnel at lethal velocities via sudden increase in volume via gas production.

How to protect against it: Don't be near a bomb. What can they do when facing an exploding bomb? Nothing. Hope you don't die.


My point?
Just posting a large pile of text about Sarin is NOT a reason to go to war with Syria.

Now where the hell did I say anythin about war?! @ganbaru asked about Sarin, and I provided an answer simple as that, nothin about war!

A bomb is an explosive device designed to deliver its contents over a wide area or a confined space. All dependent on its size, propellant, and design. It can deliver shrapnel, gas, or high explosive.
How do you defend against it, aside from a bomb suit you don't, AND if you don't know it's there your screwed, witness the recent events in Boston!
So I guess your against humanitarian aid too? If we deliver them gas masks and NBC suits, food, water, medicines? Or is that interferin too?

[AnimeFan188]

U.S. believes Israel has conducted an airstrike into Syria: CNN:

"The United States believes Israel has conducted an airstrike into Syria, CNN
reported on Friday, citing two unnamed U.S. officials.

CNN quoted the officials as saying Israel most likely conducted the strike "in the
Thursday-Friday time frame" and that Israel's warplanes did not enter Syrian
airspace."

See:

http://news.yahoo.com/u-believes-isr...001333448.html

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by AnimeFan188

U.S. believes Israel has conducted an airstrike into Syria: CNN:

"The United States believes Israel has conducted an airstrike into Syria, CNN
reported on Friday, citing two unnamed U.S. officials.

CNN quoted the officials as saying Israel most likely conducted the strike "in the
Thursday-Friday time frame" and that Israel's warplanes did not enter Syrian
airspace."

See:

http://news.yahoo.com/u-believes-isr...001333448.html

If Israel wants to get involved, that's their choice. Hope Obama can resist the call to aid their "ally".

[ganbaru]

That might be weird to ask this now but do anyone here know what's the current position of Turkey on this conflict? A few month ago they seeemed quite conserned, even asked Patriots from NATO, but it's been months since I last saw something about them. Any information?

[AnimeFan188]

Originally Posted by ganbaru

That might be weird to ask this now but do anyone here know what's the current position of Turkey on this conflict? A few month ago they seeemed quite conserned, even asked Patriots from NATO, but it's been months since I last saw something about them. Any information?

Turkey Faces 'Lose-Lose' Situation Over Syria:

"As the Syrian civil war enters its third year, evidence is mounting that it will be
difficult for Turkey to surgically extricate itself from the crisis while retaining any
advantages gained. The chilling statement by Lebanese Hezbollah leader Hassan
Nasrallah on May 1, as reported by Al-Monitor’s Ali Hashem in Beirut, not only raises
the stakes for Ankara, but also suggests that Turkey could face animosity in a
region where it once hoped to play a stabilizing role as a soft power."

"The document, “Blurring the Borders: Syrian Spillover Risks for Turkey,” also
maintains that 300,000 Syrians have taken refuge in Turkey to date and that this
figure could treble in 2013 and prove to be unsustainable. The report also warns
that ethnic and sectarian tensions in Syria could spill over into Turkey’s Hatay
province, “where more than one-third of the population is of Arab Alevi descent
and directly related to Syria’s Alawites.”"

See:

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/orig...llah-risk.html



If Syria breaks down into a failed-state/terrorist-playground, it will be bad news
for all of Syria's neighbors, especially if Syria's chem weapon stockpiles are looted
by the extremists.

The question is; how to prevent that without getting sucked into a quagmire?

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by AnimeFan188

The question is; how to prevent that without getting sucked into a quagmire?

Send in agents to blow up chemical weapons dumps and let the fallout do the rest? [/sarcasm]

[ganbaru]

Israel bombs Hezbollah-bound missiles in Syria: official
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...94300B20130504

Israel: Syrian chemical arms safe, Hezbollah does not want them
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...94304U20130504

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

So if even Israel said Hezbollah doesn't want chemical weapons, then does that mean there is no grounds for intervention from the "weapons falling in the wrong hands" hawks?

I said it before too, that conventional bombs are more useful in terror operations.

[Ledgem]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So if even Israel said Hezbollah doesn't want chemical weapons, then does that mean there is no grounds for intervention from the "weapons falling in the wrong hands" hawks?

I said it before too, that conventional bombs are more useful in terror operations.

I don't think so. My guess would be that the various militant factions simply don't want the chemical weapons right now. Acquiring chemical weapons would like bring scrutiny and pre-emptive attacks to who ever was holding them, particularly if other countries considered the holder to be a terrorist group. Syria is still a mess and many of the involved factions are already exerting military capacity there. As such it would be poor strategy to try and acquire weapons that would get other countries involved and fighting against the force with the weapons. Once things stabilize and/or the militant forces feel that they would be capable of withstanding an attack from outside forces, I would not be surprised if grabs are made for those weapons.

[Sumeragi]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

So if even Israel said Hezbollah doesn't want chemical weapons, then does that mean there is no grounds for intervention from the "weapons falling in the wrong hands" hawks?

I said it before too, that conventional bombs are more useful in terror operations.

Hezbollah isn't the only organization around, you know.

[SaintessHeart]

Originally Posted by Sumeragi

Hezbollah isn't the only organization around, you know.

True, but what about the process of pre-weaponisation?

I suspect the reason why Hezbollah didn't want the weapon is due to containment and preservation. The similarity between chemical and biological weapons being not as favoured as nuclear is due the ardous process of pre-weaponisation - to store it without it leaking and harming your soldiers , PLUS you have to prevent the mixing agents from breaking down before its deployment is not just costly, it is a long and delicate process of maintenance and monitoring to ensure that when it is released, it is at its optimum potence AND at its maximum yield. *

Hezbollah is the biggest and fattest group out there, if they don't think they can handle the weapon, who else would have the manpower, funds and expertise to do so?

* - C-kun can fill you in more I think, he is supposed to clean us up after we fight in the first-contact battleground (CBRE). Drop him a VM.

[ganbaru]

Explosions shake Damascus, Syria blames Israel
http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/...94400020130505

One of the sites hit on Sunday, the Jamraya military research center, was also targeted by Israel in January.

[killer3000ad]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/f_j8ID-m1pU

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

Footage a massive the explosion at the site.