[Manga] Chapter 458 Discussion

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Captain Commando

No, I honestly believe that they would both knock his ass out if he fought either of them 1v1. At least Tsunade and Jiraiya can say they left their legacy behind with star pupils. At least Tsunade had a big hand in helping many people survive against Pein's attack; and Jiraiya stood his own against Pein and got valuable info. Orochimaru on the other hand left behind a bunch of mutant rejects and a trator pupil. If he had to go up against Pein, he probably would die hurting 1 body honestly. People keep giving Oro excuses because of his weak body state or whatever, but did you ever think of it this way: If he had a strong body from the get go, he wouldn’t need to steal other peoples strong bodies and powers. The fact that he needs to do this means hes the weakest of the three.

He doesnt steal other peoples bodies because he is weak he steals them because the normal human life span isnt enough to learn all the jutsus in the world and that is also why he wants the sharingan. He is the strongest/2nd strongest of the three, he was the genius of the trio and he beat Jiraiya's ass before the series started.

[Haak]

^ Would've worked if you were actually ahead, James.

[milanj1989@live.com]

It's been said that if diferent chakra source enters yours body, the genjutsu will be canceled.
So Naruto can easy use sage chakra to cancel any genjutsu even those cast by sharingan user.
Plus Naruto can do a powerfull genjutsu himself with help of two sage toads, they tried that against pain, but pain alredy knows what that genjutsu do from Jiraiya and than stoped them.

Does the fourth need hand seals for his time\space jutsu. During Kakashi gaiden he used it to kill oponent who hurt Kakashi, without any hand seals and yet when they show him on the battlefield, while others trow special kunais. His back is turned to us but his hands are posed such as doing hand seals.

Maybe Naruto will to do it without needing seals or special kunais. Take it to do next level like with rasengan?

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by milanj1989@live.com

It's been said that if diferent chakra source enters yours body, the genjutsu will be canceled.
So Naruto can easy use sage chakra to cancel any genjutsu even those cast by sharingan user.
Plus Naruto can do a powerfull genjutsu himself with help of two sage toads, they tried that against pain, but pain alredy knows what that genjutsu do from Jiraiya and than stoped them.

Pain knew nothing about Jiraiya's genjutsu abilities. They totally surprised him. The only fact why he made it was that he entered the fight with 3/6 of his bodies, so that the other 3/6 were not affected by the genjutsu. Otherwise, all his bodies would have been destroyed in one blow.

Originally Posted by milanj1989@live.com

Does the fourth need hand seals for his time\space jutsu. During Kakashi gaiden he used it to kill oponent who hurt Kakashi, without any hand seals and yet when they show him on the battlefield, while others trow special kunais. His back is turned to us but his hands are posed such as doing hand seals.

Of course it needs seals (just like any jutsu except a simple one like Rasengan does), but it's not shown the first time because he takes off his backpack and is there before it falls down to the floor. I doubt that a complex jutsu that was only mastered by a single person (as far as we know) can still be dramatically improved. It was a sensation in the first place.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Haak

Would've worked if you were actually ahead, James.

If you really believe that...well, I'll just leave that alone for now...

I just felt it was unimportant to argue points that have already been discussed ad nauseum. If posters/reviewers/readers refuse to accept basic facts of the series, then they should complain that Kishimoto does not present these facts in a sufficient manner, not that the facts themselves are incorrect. Otherwise, you are simply claiming that your interpretation of the facts is better or more "realistic" than the author's. Consequently, discussion breaks down, pointless arguments ensue, and a few name-callers crawl out of the wood works to live up to their hyphenated name.

This discussion is pointless, so let us move on to greener pastures. Spoiler will start coming out in 2-4 hours, and a new thread should be started 6-10 hours...

That being said, incase some did not receive the "memo", there will be no Naruto/Shounen Jump next week. This week's issue (which contains chapter 459 of Naruto) is a double issue (I think it is a contest issue, but I could be wrong), which means no issue next week. Here's hoping that something significant happens in the next chapter to tide us over for an extra week, otherwise more pointless versus discussion will develop (then again, I do egg the discussions on sometimes...I really need to work on that ).

[milanj1989@live.com]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Pain knew nothing about Jiraiya's genjutsu abilities. They totally surprised him. The only fact why he made it was that he entered the fight with 3/6 of his bodies, so that the other 3/6 were not affected by the genjutsu. Otherwise, all his bodies would have been destroyed in one blow.

I said pain knew what genjutsu does becayse Jiraiya used it on him, so he stoped Naruto from doing the same.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by Gamma_Sennin

Naruto encountered Itachi twice in part 2, first time was the clone, which had 30 percent chakra, he was caught by a genjutsu rather easily . He then performed his KB training, learned his new element and achieved greater experience and understanding of KB and tactics in general. His second encounter with Itachi, was an Itachi clone vs Naruto clone, if you re read that Arc, the real Naruto is with Kiba, Sakura, Sai etc.. Sasuke also one hit one of Naruto's KB's in the very same Arc, so using the comparison of Kakashi/Naruto vs Itachi is rather unfair.

The Naruto Itachi came across wasn't a clone (at least I don't believe so). Because Itachi gave Naruto some of his power, I don't think would've done so if it was a clone. It makes more sense for something like to be done with the Real Body.

Originally Posted by Gamma_Sennin

Also at the Sasuke vs Deidara debacle. the fact Deidara was reduced to a suicide attempt to even kill Sasuke, which failed btw means he lost. They had a fight, Sasuke lived, Deidara didn't. Also before Dei encountered Garaa, Sasori asks "is it alright with just that bag" , whether the amount of clay he took with him affected the use of his higher lvl attacks is unknown, though Sasori seemed to think so. and of course James mentioned he wasn't fighting to kill.

Deidara beating Gaara was a luck not skill. He threatened to drop a bomb on the village. Not only that, if they wasn't inside the Village and fought outside of Suna, the entire terrain is sand with gives Gaara a huge advantage, especially given the attacks we seen Gaara do against Kimimaro. So you can say Deidara's victory was because of the situation.

Lastly, what would Sasuke do to Bunta? exactly what he did to manda. Use a genjutsu. I don't believe Naruto is superior to Sasuke by much, if at all. IMO they will always be rather close.[/QUOTE]

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by milanj1989@live.com

I said pain knew what genjutsu does becayse Jiraiya used it on him, so he stoped Naruto from doing the same.

Okay. I don't remember Naruto attempting to perform that genjutsu. Naruto used different methods to surprise Pain. Could you please tell me which page it was when Naruto attempted to use that genjutsu?

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by AuroraFlash

Okay. I don't remember Naruto attempting to perform that genjutsu. Naruto used different methods to surprise Pain. Could you please tell me which page it was when Naruto attempted to use that genjutsu?

Naruto didn't use Genjutsu and neither did Jiraiya.
It was Shima and Fukasaku (The Frogs).

[Vindi89]

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

The Naruto Itachi came across wasn't a clone (at least I don't believe so). Because Itachi gave Naruto some of his power, I don't think would've done so if it was a clone. It makes more sense for something like to be done with the Real Body.

Except Naruto's shadow clones have been shown to transfer external energy back to him (Sage chakra) and go into tailed state by themselves. Its not out of the realm of possibility that a clone was given the power and it was transferred to Naruto. After all, Itachi most definitely was a clone in the encounter, so what's lacking sense in Naruto being a clone.

It makes more sense as Gamma_Sennin said, that the real Naruto was with Sakura, Sai, Yamato.. etc. It was never shown him leaving or reuniting with the group.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by AddiKtioNn-BlaCk

Naruto didn't use Genjutsu and neither did Jiraiya.
It was Shima and Fukasaku (The Frogs).

Oh my, how could I forget? Well, now that's it's obvious... didn't some guy want to show me when anybody ever wanted to use genjutsu against Pain in the fight between him and Naruto?

[Ichimaru Gin]

My prediction:

Danzou = danzou with a sharingan of a random uchiha...

Uchiha shisui!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mwuhahahahahahahahahaha

[JustRob]

Originally Posted by naruske

Wasn't deidara 17 and Sasuke 16? i don't see much of an age difference. Also it's not that hard for sasuke to point out deidara uses earth element when sasuke has lightning.

Yeah the thing is Deidara was already experienced when he joined Akatsuki, whereas Sasuke was probably playing ninja games or trying to become a genin.

Also according to pokemon logic earth beats lightning, meaning the entire fight is broken

[milanj1989@live.com]

Reason naruhina is not going to hapen is very simple. Naruto doesn't have any bloodline, he has to work hard for anything, if they do get together than thers children will possed byakugan, and will be tought only hyuga skills. Also isn't Hinata suposed to mary someone from the hyuga clan so byakugan will be more powerfull. Hinata's father will never aprove, that his grandchld, his heir to inheritet kyuubi's chakra. It will become something stupid like demonic byakigan.

[iBeast]

Originally Posted by Ichimaru Gin

My prediction:

Danzou = danzou with a sharingan of a random uchiha...

Uchiha shisui!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mwuhahahahahahahahahaha

you must have a very reliable crystal ball

[Haak]

Originally Posted by james0246

If you really believe that...well, I'll just leave that alone for now...

Chronologically, I meant.

[AddiKtioNn-BlaCk]

Originally Posted by milanj1989@live.com

Reason naruhina is not going to hapen is very simple. Naruto doesn't have any bloodline, he has to work hard for anything, if they do get together than thers children will possed byakugan, and will be tought only hyuga skills. Also isn't Hinata suposed to mary someone from the hyuga clan so byakugan will be more powerfull. Hinata's father will never aprove, that his grandchld, his heir to inheritet kyuubi's chakra. It will become something stupid like demonic byakigan.

MAN THAT WOULD BE SO FUCKIN EPIC! I wonder what it would even look like, what the powers would be?!

[lonewolf777]

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

It's not that he couldn't end it, if it wasnt for FRS he would've had to end it by using his MS he had to take out 5 hearts on a tentacle freak with all 5 elements, other ninjas wouldnt of been able to take them out. If his opponent had one heart with all 5 elements and tentacle freakishness Kakashi wouldve one but he didnt have a technique like FRS that could attack on a cellular level and destroy his hearts.

Fair enough. But the fact stands that he didn't finish it himself.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Also now Kakashi can use his sharingan for quite a long time before falling into exhaustion its MS that drains him and MS drains other Ucihihas the fact he can use it 3 times shows he has quite high endurance also are you forgetting that most of the time in his battles as well as being the one to attack the opponent he has to defend his stupid ass comrades I mean why does he even take them out there? They are useless if he was by himself he probably would've won most of his fights, except Pain of course but even with Pain Naruto was just lucky Hinata stepped in and caused him to go 6 tails.

Yeah, I agree with this point. Someone had mentioned it before, and I think they have a point. I do think that if it weren't for a lot of external factors, he would win a lot more battles. I'm not denying that he's a powerful ninja, by any means. I'm just saying that he's not on the same level compared to Naruto as he used to be. Back then, he was the one that they wanted to reach and be better than - he seemed like he was miles ahead; now, it seems like they've caught up, or arguably passed him. What he has in experience and killer instinct, they all lack, but I don't think it's reasonable to say that ability and strengthwise he's been caught.

Originally Posted by Cub-Sama

Furthermore are you paying attention to the ninjas that use high level techniques because if you did you would notice every single one of them pay the price as well as Naruto. Sasuke, Naruto, Itachi, Pain, Jiraiya, Tsunade all paid the price for using high level techniques all ended up exhausted and had to rest only difference is that Pain had 5 other bodies to back him up while he rested in the middle of battle and Naruto had kyuubi powers to heal him quicker and Sasuke had the white snake.

Sure, that's true. But how many of them stay in the hospital as long as he does as a result of exhaustion? And how many of them does it happen to as frequently as Kakashi? It seems like Kakashi without fail will be in the hospital with exceptions. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying he's useless. I'm saying that his spot on the stage is a little different now; he's no longer center spotlight main star.


Anyway, it's not my intention to have a debate on who is or isn't better. I'm not forcing anybody to think Kakashi isn't as strong as Naruto anymore. I'm just saying, that's the way I see it. I was just commenting on something someone said.

I would rather talk about future happenings, and since the spoiler discussion is up, I'll see you there

[Mr. Johnny 5]

Originally Posted by milanj1989@live.com

Reason naruhina is not going to hapen is very simple. Naruto doesn't have any bloodline, he has to work hard for anything, if they do get together than thers children will possed byakugan, and will be tought only hyuga skills. Also isn't Hinata suposed to mary someone from the hyuga clan so byakugan will be more powerfull. Hinata's father will never aprove, that his grandchld, his heir to inheritet kyuubi's chakra. It will become something stupid like demonic byakigan.

That is impossible. The Kyuubi's is present but he isnt present because of a family or dna trait. Therefor Naruto's....seed...would not contain anything related to the Kyuubi.

[noven]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

That is impossible. The Kyuubi's is present but he isnt present because of a family or dna trait. Therefor Naruto's....seed...would not contain anything related to the Kyuubi.

It's naruto, you can't know either way with any certainty.