(CR) Sousou no Frieren (Frieren: Beyond Journey's End)

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Because most of them lived long enough to be around when Himmel defeated the Demon King. Even then, the younger, weaker ones like Draht didn't know who Frieren was.



80 years is long enough for most of the humans who were alive back then to either be dead or old and close enough to their deathbeds, leaving nothing but tales and hearsay.
Anyone younger wouldn't know what she looked like.

And aside from the demon killing she did in Himmel's party, she didn't interact with humans or any mages until the start of this journey.

That is not exactly right and that is my point. Frieren did work with Mages and helped with the development of the Magic. She is the main reason that Zoltraak is a normal Magic so her name is at least supposed to be known by Mages.

[nojay]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

That is not exactly right and that is my point. Frieren did work with Mages and helped with the development of the Magic. She is the main reason that Zoltraak is a normal Magic so her name is at least supposed to be known by Mages.

Her name was probably well-known by the last generation of human mages but nearly all of them are dead and gone.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Frieren did work with Mages and helped with the development of the Magic.

That was not what Lugner said. He said she "greatly contributed to the human's research on Zoltraak".

contribution (kouken 貢献) is not the same as helping directly (e.g. tetsudai 手伝い）

There are plenty of ways that she can contribute to the humans' research without direct social interaction, like just other mages being eyewitnesses to her battles at the time and developing their own countermeasures that way.
She fought Qual and survived. That's already more helpful compared to all the victims that got disintegrated back then.

Lugner as a demon wouldn't know or care whether Frieren has any social interaction anyway.

[Strahan]

Yea, but then, Socrates has been dead almost 2500 years and he is still well known for his contributions. If you want a more scientific and less philosophical contributor (as Frieren could be considered similarly, just swap science for magic), Galileo has been dead nearly four hundred years and again, almost everyone knows his name.

So just having a generation (or even several) pass shouldn't change things, at least amongst mages where she made her contributions.

EDIT:

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That was not what Lugner said. He said she "greatly contributed to the human's research on Zoltraak".

Hmm. I was assuming from other peoples' posts she had an important part in magic development; I didn't read the novels and can't recall earlier episodes if they touched on that or not. If she did not actually, then my prior point is not relevant.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by nojay

Her name was probably well-known by the last generation of human mages but nearly all of them are dead and gone.

If the case was that a normal person so maybe (and even then we still need to remember that there are statues of her), the current situation is one that someone from her field (?) (I'm pretty sure that isn't the correct way to phrasing my intent so please forgive my mistakes and if you can please fix it) doesn't recognize her. The current situation is like a legendary worker going to a place that full of people that supposed to know him and he still will not be recognized by anyone.

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

That was not what Lugner said. He said she "greatly contributed to the human's research on Zoltraak".

contribution (kouken 貢献) is not the same as helping directly (e.g. tetsudai 手伝い）

There are plenty of ways that she can contribute to the humans' research without direct social interaction, like just other mages being eyewitnesses to her battles at the time and developing their own countermeasures that way.
She fought Qual and survived. That's already more helpful compared to all the victims that got disintegrated back then.

Lugner as a demon wouldn't know or care whether Frieren has any social interaction anyway.

I take this part as less information that comes from unreliable sources and more as a way for the creator to give us information.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by Strahan

Yea, but then, Socrates has been dead almost 2500 years and he is still well known for his contributions. If you want a more scientific and less philosophical contributor (as Frieren could be considered similarly, just swap science for magic), Galileo has been dead nearly four hundred years and again, almost everyone knows his name.

So just having a generation (or even several) pass shouldn't change things, at least amongst mages where she made her contributions.

EDIT:

Hmm. I was assuming from other peoples' posts she had an important part in magic development; I didn't read the novels and can't recall earlier episodes if they touched on that or not. If she did not actually, then my prior point is not relevant.

Frieren did not discover Zoltraak, nor did she create it. If you want a more valid comparison, that would be Flamme, who did pioneer human magic.

Originally Posted by TURI123456

If the case was that a normal person so maybe (and even then we still need to remember that there are statues of her), the current situation is one that someone from her field (?) (I'm pretty sure that isn't the correct way to phrasing my intent so please forgive my mistakes and if you can please fix it) doesn't recognize her. The current situation is like a legendary worker going to a place that full of people that supposed to know him and he still will not be recognized by anyone.

Most people have forgotten what Flamme looks like, and she has a bigger reputation as the founder of human magic than Frieren does.

Originally Posted by TURI123456

I take this part as less information that comes from unreliable sources and more as a way for the creator to give us information.

Even if you take what Lugner says at face value, that still doesn't change that he never said she directly helped with the research, only that she was a big contribution.

[nojay]

Originally Posted by Shadow5YA

Most people have forgotten what Flamme looks like, and she has a bigger reputation as the founder of human magic than Frieren does.

It's widely believed that Flamme was a man. Flamme's magic is still around in the form of anti-Demon barriers so her/his name is remembered because of that.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

I take this part as less information that comes from unreliable sources and more as a way for the creator to give us information.

This isn't that kinda of manga. In this manga, who says something is as important as what they said. Lugner is an unreliable narrator so we actually don't know how much Frieren actually contributed to humanity's research on Zoltraak, if she contributed at all.

[Thor's Hammer]

I haven't read the novels, but based on the anime, not even Himmel is universally remembered after 80 years despite being the most famous of those in his party with that group he travelled with being referred to as the Hero's Party.

Aura herself thought that Frieren was the weakest of the group because of her obscurity before joining the party. Lugner only knew Frieren's strength because he directly encountered her in a battle where it looked like she slew thousands of demons in one sitting, so of course she made an impression on him. I also wouldn't be surprised if Frieren was cagey about how she actually defeated Aura, so the secret of her large mana pool has probably been preserved.

Given most people's weak regard for history in this story with how Fern refused to read the book on the history of magic Frieren repeatedly asked her to read, it does not surprise me that Frieren, who goes out of her way to not stand out, partly because of what Flamme ingrained into her being, is not remembered by very many people considering how most who knew of her strength are long dead.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by nojay

Eighty years ago our world was in an existential war with the Demon Kings of Fascism. Today, the grandchildren and great-grandchildren of those who fought back then learn of that time in a boring few lessons in history class and don't care much about the Heroes. So it goes.

Hey now, we all remember the guy who liked Hitler.

[TURI123456]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

This isn't that kinda of manga. In this manga, who says something is as important as what they said. Lugner is an unreliable narrator so we actually don't know how much Frieren actually contributed to humanity's research on Zoltraak, if she contributed at all.

Yes, however, we do know that Frieren learns about her enemies so that only makes sense that what was said by Lugner was true.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by TURI123456

Yes, however, we do know that Frieren learns about her enemies so that only makes sense that what was said by Lugner was true.

What doesn't make sense is that Lugner would know about that considering he couldn't even remember Frieren's face just an episode ago.

My interpretation is that he's assuming she contributed because he looks down on humans and doesn't believe they could do it alone. That's perfectly in character for him, considering how arrogant he is.

But here's the thing that lots of people seem to misunderstand about this show. It's not a show about how awesome this long-lived Elf called Frieren is. It's a show about the potential of humanity despite their short lives, from the point of view of a long-lived elf. And it's in that context that Frieren tells Fern about how humanity researched zoltraak and figured it out not only how to use it against demons, but also how to defend from it, which led to the development of the standard magical barrier that all mages use today. Frieren tells Fern this (in episode 3, remember?) as an example of how humanity can develop amazing things in such a short time. And the reason they can do so is that their lives are so short. They have an urgency to improve quickly that long-lived races like elves do not have.

That goes hand in hand with the fact that Frieren has been defeated 6 times by human mages. Even though their lives are so short, even though they can't possible have more mana than Frieren.... None of that matters, because humanity's potential is limitless. That's one of the big themes of the show. The other big theme being the value in interpersonal relationships.

[Frontier]

Aw, it's so cute how Lawine and Kanne fall asleep together! They really are close no matter how much they argue or pick fights with each other. But it takes all types of parties, like how Himmel's party worked despite them kind of just making it up as they went along, but as long as they stayed true to themselves they managed to succeed .

The camera sure loves Kanne's butt and thighs, huh ?

I should've figured some of the "folk magic" Frieren has collected over time would prove pivotal to their strategy. I mean, if it catches a big bird, it should be able to capture a little one too, huh ?

Well, good to see Fern's group managed to capture their Stille! Though Ubel is just waiting for an excuse to fight someone and Lande (the glasses guy) is trying to keep them on-point and thinking strategically, especially with other mages to worry about .

And pick a fight they do as they end up encountering Wirbel and his group, and for Ubel it's finally a party! He seems like exactly Ubel's type of man (as in the type she can enjoy trying to kill). Also, here's Aira from The Saint's Magic Power is Omnipotent, only voiced by Kanae Ito .

So the plan was to use Lawine's magic to freeze the main lake, cutting the Stille's from their main watering source (and the easiest point for the other mages to catch Stille's), have Kanne infuse mana into other ponds so the Stille's would avoid them, and then have Frieren wait while supressing her mana for a Stille to show up so they can catch it! A nice plan using the entire party's specialties to pull it off .

And when a complication erupts, it always ferrets out the experienced and clever from those who don't know what they're doing, and Denken in particular has experience and wit to be aware of what's really going on and the proper way to approach a problem. Which can't be said for mages who fire away willy nilly or fly off to their deaths .

Because, yeah, mages are starting to bite it in this test, which isn't a problem for the examiners because this test is meant to ferret out anyone who is worth becoming a 1st Rank mage in the first place, so culling the herd is to be expected. Not that Denken approves in so much as power isn't what defines a mage so much as how they use their position .

In comes Laufen like a ninja voiced by Shizuka Ishigami !

Fern senses her opponent is actually the strongest of her party, but Wirbel is the most battle-experienced...but somehow I don't think that's going to be much help against someone as bloodthirsty as Ubel .

[scififan]

The second stage of the test is the death match. Frieren's team still haven't had chance to catch the bird, the first objective.

[SeijiSensei]

Why don't Fern and Frieren fly in difficult situations? Fern should have flown the bird back to the home base as soon as her team caught it. Now Frieren is standing around with a bird. What do birds do, Frieren? They fly.

[Nachtwandler]

I presume, they should caught the bird and hold it till the end of the exam, not get it back to the superviser immediatelly. They cannot leave the barrier untill exam ends, so not much reason to fly from opponents and waste mana on it when you can fight here and now.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Why don't Fern and Frieren fly in difficult situations? Fern should have flown the bird back to the home base as soon as her team caught it. Now Frieren is standing around with a bird. What do birds do, Frieren? They fly.

Flying uses a lot of mana so it's very dangerous to use in this situation. You would reveal your location to all the other participants, and also the monsters. The team that started flying ended up dead because of that.

[Shadow5YA]

Originally Posted by SeijiSensei

Why don't Fern and Frieren fly in difficult situations? Fern should have flown the bird back to the home base as soon as her team caught it. Now Frieren is standing around with a bird. What do birds do, Frieren? They fly.

There is no home base. As Genau stated, their objective is to hold onto a Stille until the deadline with all party members present.
If they leave their teammates behind, then they still fail.

Both Denken and Frieren also already mentioned that they have to lay low so that they don't attract attention from the flying monsters.
Even if they're strong enough to defend against them, they don't want to be put in a disadvantageous situation where they have to defend themselves against both monsters and other teams, who can sense them anyway through mana detection. Do you expect them to keep fending off enemies for hours until sunset?

In Frieren's case, one of the opposing team members clearly uses a form of high speed movement. It's too late for her to run away.

[grecefar]

with age comes wisdom and denken played well in this chapter but the thing is that choosing the "easy" way in stealing the bird isn't always the best choice, that was what most parties did.

too bad denken choosed the wrong party and freiren will just play with them.

I miss stark already ;A;

[GDB]

Originally Posted by scififan

The second stage of the test is the death match. Frieren's team still haven't had chance to catch the bird, the first objective.

What? They literally just caught it.