Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by brocko

Haruhi hasn't even gotten to the point of being neglected yet, so all this fan demand and what not just comes across as obnoxious self-entitlement.

There was this recent news release. And there's the fact that we already have news of two brand new IPs for KyoAni coming in 2012.

When you factor in how KyoAni does very few anime projects per year, it doesn't paint a very pretty picture for Haruhi fans. There's signals here that, at least on face value, suggest that Kadokawa and/or KyoAni aren't terribly interested in doing more Haruhi anime.

Now, we can say that the press release I linked to is just Kadokawa doing damage control over something Hirano hinted about in a tweet, but even so, Kadokawa could have worded that a lot better if they intend on eventually doing more Haruhi.


So, this is what we can take from this:

1. 99% chance there's no Haruhi in 2012. You can never rule anything entirely out with KyoAni, but this is a pretty safe bet.

2. Kadokawa's overall handling of Haruhi very much leaves something to be desired, and leaves fans having no clue (or ominous clues, depending on how you take certain news releases) as to where the Haruhi anime franchise is going in the future.


This is simply not a good way to treat your fans.

So I think people are raising legitimate concerns/criticisms here, and are not engaging in obnoxious self-entitlement.

It hasn't even been two years yet since the last animated work.

It will be almost three years come a year from now though, and it's already a safe bet there will be no Haruhi in 2012.

There's no need to make a fuss right now.

The whole point of this thread is to discuss about Kyoto Animation, and to "speculate" about it. This thread basically calls for people to "make a fuss" about Kyoto Animation and its properties.

Why even have a Studio discussion thread if AS members shouldn't "make a fuss" about the most important choices and decisions that an anime studio makes?

[CrowKenobi]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The whole point of this thread is to discuss about Kyoto Animation, and to "speculate" about it. This thread basically calls for people to "make a fuss" about Kyoto Animation and its properties.

Why even have a Studio discussion thread if AS members shouldn't "make a fuss" about the most important choices and decisions that an anime studio makes?

True, but then again, the thread shouldn't be used as an incessant whine-fest thread whining endlessly about how bad Kyoani's choices of new projects are when they should make more of "..." (or do Little Busters!) instead!

In essence: we get it, but you're preaching to the choir here as no one around here can do anything about it...

[Reckoner]

And whining about other people whining is the solution ?

Really, these are valid concerns people are bringing up and it just so happens others didn't feel the same way and that's why this conversation has been dragged on like this. That's it.

[brocko]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

There was this recent news release. And there's the fact that we already have news of two brand new IPs for KyoAni coming in 2012.

When you factor in how KyoAni does very few anime projects per year, it doesn't paint a very pretty picture for Haruhi fans.There's signals here that, at least on face value, suggest that Kadokawa and/or KyoAni aren't terribly interested in doing more Haruhi anime.

They aren't interested right now. Like Skane mentioned earlier:

Originally Posted by Skane

Just because they're not doing it now, doesn't mean they won't do it at all.

Urobuchi also mentioned they weren't planning for any Madoka sequels and yet only a few months after, they announced the Madoka movies, so plans can and do in fact change all the time. We saw this very same thing with Haruhi too in 2007 when they did that 2nd season is cancelled shenanigan.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Now, we can say that the press release I linked to is just Kadokawa doing damage control over something Hirano hinted about in a tweet, but even so, Kadokawa could have worded that a lot better if they intend on eventually doing more Haruhi.

So, this is what we can take from this:

1. 99% chance there's no Haruhi in 2012. You can never rule anything entirely out with KyoAni, but this is a pretty safe bet.

2. Kadokawa's overall handling of Haruhi very much leaves something to be desired, and leaves fans having no clue (or ominous clues, depending on how you take certain news releases) as to where the Haruhi anime franchise is going in the future.

This is simply not a good way to treat your fans.

They flat out said there's nothing planned at the moment. What else do you want them to do? Make up some imaginary date to mislead people again? If they aren't ready to announce it, they aren't ready.

And c'mon lets be serious, as if they'd mention anything about a new season when inquired on something as trivial as a random tweet. That'd be like throwing a monkey wrench into their whole marketing plans.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So I think people are raising legitimate concerns/criticisms here, and are not engaging in obnoxious self-entitlement.

It will be almost three years come a year from now though, and it's already a safe bet there will be no Haruhi in 2012.

That's one whole year they have to announce whatever plans they have for the franchise. The concerns are premature. They've told us nothing is going on at the moment. At the moment. Don't assume it applies to the future as well.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

The whole point of this thread is to discuss about Kyoto Animation, and to "speculate" about it. This thread basically calls for people to "make a fuss" about Kyoto Animation and its properties.

Why even have a Studio discussion thread if AS members shouldn't "make a fuss" about the most important choices and decisions that an anime studio makes?

Because it gets old and repetitive. We get the point, you want more Haruhi. We all want more Haruhi. They told us it ain't coming anytime soon. You're not happy. We all aren't happy. Deal with it.

EDIT: After CrowKenobi's and Reckoners new post I think this will be my last response on the matter so as not to drag things any further.

[cyth]

Well, speaking as Haruhi's S1 fan, who bought stuff and all, they sure didn't manage to satisfy their old customer with S2. They rather decided to mock paying otaku with Endless 8 and losing half their fanbase in the process. Endless 8 wasn't even a calculated risk, probably everyone (even Yamakan) knew that it wasn't going to sell. So again, the "customer is always right" doesn't hold, Endless 8 was a selfish choice. They lost me as a customer, sure, but I can respect the criticism behind the decision.

I hope they do a similar experiment with possible future K-ON! works.

[Ithekro]

Best guess. If it does take two years to produce an anime up to KyoAni's standards. They made Harhuhi (2009) from 2007 to 2009 and the movie though the same period, altering the plans at some point when someone decided that Disappearance needed to be a feature film rather than a set of espisode (the Second season's "cancellization" business)....but they still needed to fulfill the contractual obligation to fill 14 episodes...so...Endless Eight was born...perhaps out of desperation. They then decided to wait to see how the public reacted to both Haruhi projects. In the meantime, something called K-On happened, which seems to have suprised them a little. So taking that into account, and the rather negative feedback from Endless Eight shortly after K-On ended...K-On!! gets produced (rather quickly I guess, bringing into question the lead time for anime). Kadokawa decides to fill in other projects before the Disappearance returns are in while KyoAni waits to see what K-On!! does. K-On!! proves effective, so while the shop is set to do another feature film, Nichijou is produced.
Disappearance sales are good, Kadokawa waits on Book 10/11 sales before committing to more Haruhi after what happened in 2009 decides to fill in another backorder with Hyou-Ka. KyoAni is tired of animating K-On continually, plus they have a lack of material to animate from it, so they go to their awards and pick a honorable mention (as there was no grand prize) with (Chūni-byō Demo Koi Shitai!). This brings us up to the speculative present.
Kadokawa has now seen the returns on a lot of Haruhi materials in the last few years and may have given the "go" flag to KyoAni...or they might have a large backlog of stuff for KyoAni to animate. Sometimes one has to fulfill contractual obligtions or the more common "I scratch your back, so now you scratch mine", in this case perhaps in order to get some deal or sell something else, they need an anime done. Something else happens in return. Perhaps a contract. Services by certain people. Access to a different intellectual property they might want to animate or sell later.

KyoAni, on the other hand, is either flexing some independence with Chūni-byō Demo Koi Shitai! or its another deal with Pony Canyon while they wait for enough material to animate more K-On. Or they are trying to figure out how to do another Key project. If they are attempting to go free a little, then what else is on the Kyoto Animation Award list that looks viable?

We also have no clear view on how many projects KyoAni can do if they are not also animating a feature film (of which there in no knowledge at present). If 2008-2009 is any indication, they can do a few at a time, with only some slipping, which they might have corrected with additional staff from their animation school (students). because there you have Clannad After Story, Munto TV and its feature film, two web based Haruhi series, K-On, Haruhi (2009) and production of the Haruhi feature film and likely a good piece of K-On!! for the following year. So functionally they can do at least three 13 episode seasons worth of anime a year. Perhaps four seasons worth (or two 26 episode shows). That is assuming that a feature film plus a few OVAs is equal to a 13 episode season for KyoAni's animators, and that the fourth 13 episode section would start to make things rushed and not quite up to their usual standards, but they "could" do it.

[ultimatemegax]

I would have loved to see announcements for a new Haruhi anime or light novel to be released before now, but I know that KyoAni spent somewhere around 5 years in a row working on the franchise (2005-2010) and they may want a break from it. (I say 5 years as they started work in at least 2005 and were working throughout the three years on changes between TV/movie for Disappearance.) I've read that J-cast piece many times, and what ANN leads with isn't even a direct quote. Besides, why would Kadokawa announce something to a reporter before they could publish it in one of their magazines and gain additional sales?

Haruhi is unlike any other light novel series when it comes to sales. Franchises like Baka Test and Index needed anime aired to get over the 100k hurdle, while Haruhi's 7th novel (released just after the anime announcement in 2005, but prior to any airings) had a first pressing of 150k. The only series to match that is Haganai, and sales aren't increasing like they did for Haruhi. (Novel 8 of Haruhi had a 300k first presing.) It'd be superfluous to mention the sales for Astonishment, but I'd like to point out that all of the records are for a two-book set which was priced at the same point as the Kodensha Box (publisher of the Nisioisin series) which makes it even more impressive.

As for speculation, I'd like to mention that KyoAni doesn't have one big staff anymore. There's different teams like the one that worked on K-On!, Haruhi, and even Nichijou had different members. Hyouka has gotten Takemoto, Nishiya, and Gatoh together. We don't know who will be working on Chuuni-byou yet, as it might be Yamada et al from K-On!. But where is Ishihara? At this point, there's too many unknowns to guess what's going on. Honestly, I'm looking forward to these new series from KyoAni.

Truthfully, I think Kadokawa and KyoAni were unhappy with the whole "cancellation" of Haruhi's second season that the "re-airing" and movie went through and don't want to announce something until it's more concrete. Not to mention there's a good debate over whether it'd be a second or third season (though I've not seen anything official from Kadokawa that states 2009 was a "second season"). KyoAni still made a Haruhi calendar for this year, the only non-airing franchise from them to get one. There's still Haruhi merchandise, tie-ins, and even airings of the series being made, so I'd say chances are good of something being made.

[brocko]

^ Interesting you mention the different production teams because scheduling conflicts could be one of the factors holding things back as well.

Originally Posted by Ithekro

We also have no clear view on how many projects KyoAni can do if they are not also animating a feature film (of which there in no knowledge at present). If 2008-2009 is any indication, they can do a few at a time, with only some slipping, which they might have corrected with additional staff from their animation school (students). because there you have Clannad After Story, Munto TV and its feature film, two web based Haruhi series, K-On, Haruhi (2009) and production of the Haruhi feature film and likely a good piece of K-On!! for the following year. So functionally they can do at least three 13 episode seasons worth of anime a year. Perhaps four seasons worth (or two 26 episode shows). That is assuming that a feature film plus a few OVAs is equal to a 13 episode season for KyoAni's animators, and that the fourth 13 episode section would start to make things rushed and not quite up to their usual standards, but they "could" do it.

They've already proven that they can handle back to back episodes for a whole year and a half (~76 episodes) as seen with Kanon2006 > Lucky Star > Clannad. That was back in 2008 so surely they're capable of handling more than that now.

Maybe throw in an overlapping 1 or 2 cour series on top of a full 52 episode year and that could be a fair estimatation. But like you've said we have no idea on how much output they're capable of now when strictly dealing with TV series and their weekly deadlines.

[Triple_R]

I'm going to keep this short and to the point since some people are tiring of the discussion.

1) The words "At the moment" were never stated by the Kadokawa rep, as reported by ANN anyway. It's fine to read that into what the rep said, but it's at least possible that he really meant "We have no plans for a 3rd Haruhi season", period. This is partly where my concerns are coming from, and why I don't consider them premature.

2) With this in mind, I'd like it if KyoAni and Kadokawa would be a bit more forthcoming with general statements about their plans for their most popular franchises. Something like "We don't plan on making any more Haruhi anytime soon, but I'm sure we'll get back to it eventually" would be nice.

3) Ultimately, I'm simply not as optimistic as some people on this thread seem to be. I hope that they are right, but I simply don't share their optimism.

4) I certainly don't think "The Customer is Always Right" is always applied in the real world. My point was that it ought to be, at least as a general rule of thumb.


If nobody else wants to debate this further, I'll leave it at that.

[rulfo]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

And whining about other people whining is the solution ?

Really, these are valid concerns people are bringing up and it just so happens others didn't feel the same way and that's why this conversation has been dragged on like this. That's it.

And the former solves what? What new eye opening knowledge have we gained?

If only this thread was a little more focused on some aspects of KyoAni that most of us don't know. You know something like production aesthetics of this studio compared to others instead of the infinite ranting about why no FMP/Haruhi like a broken record.

This thread would be much more informative.... Bu then oh well....

You say you hate E8 but you sure love endless recursion of uninformative topics.

[Reckoner]

The complaints were raised because KyoAni announced new projects as well as their announcements about no plans for a new Haruhi season. We were expressing an opinion about the direction of the studio. Other people got annoyed at us for raising these concerns, and this is the conversation we have.

No one is stopping you from talking about that stuff but your own selves who can't get off our backs for merely raising concerns and stop pushing people's buttons.

[Tempester]

Originally Posted by rulfo

If only this thread was a little more focused on some aspects of KyoAni that most of us don't know. You know something like production aesthetics of this studio compared to others instead of the infinite ranting about why no FMP/Haruhi like a broken record.

KyoAni's work on Nichijou proved to me that they can animate action sequences gorgeously. I'd love to see a new straight-out action series from them one day. (I never watched FMP and at this rate I probably never will. Incomplete adaptations of plot-heavy works frustrate me quite a bit these days.)

Originally Posted by Triple_R

1) The words "At the moment" were never stated by the Kadokawa rep, as reported by ANN anyway. It's fine to read that into what the rep said, but it's at least possible that he really meant "We have no plans for a 3rd Haruhi season", period. This is partly where my concerns are coming from, and why I don't consider them premature.

2) With this in mind, I'd like it if KyoAni and Kadokawa would be a bit more forthcoming with general statements about their plans for their most popular franchises. Something like "We don't plan on making any more Haruhi anytime soon, but I'm sure we'll get back to it eventually" would be nice.

I agree with this point. Being a not-so-hardcore fan, I'm quite patient to wait a few more years to get a Haruhi continuation, but Kadokawa's statement struck me as incredibly insensitive to the fans, assuming that they (Kadokawa) haven't abandoned the anime entirely. Yes, it was probably a cover-up statement, but it could have been worded a lot better.

[Ithekro]

Considering the statement is attached to a question about some voice work Aya Hirano is doing...you can't really tell what is going on.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Tempester

KyoAni's work on Nichijou proved to me that they can animate action sequences gorgeously. I'd love to see a new straight-out action series from them one day. (I never watched FMP and at this rate I probably never will. Incomplete adaptations of plot-heavy works frustrate me quite a bit these days.)

How do you define incomplete? The current anime adaptations ends off where an arc ends off in the novels, so it actually provides a pretty decent conclusion.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Tempester

KyoAni's work on Nichijou proved to me that they can animate action sequences gorgeously. I'd love to see a new straight-out action series from them one day. (I never watched FMP and at this rate I probably never will. Incomplete adaptations of plot-heavy works frustrate me quite a bit these days.).

I wasn't going to post in this thread, but you have forced my hands... *starts typing* In a thread where folks are still trying to identify what exactly the main point of argument is, I don't think it's a good idea to form impression about an anime that you haven't watched. I'm not much of a mecha-genre fan, but I've thoroughly enjoyed FMP. It is certainly one of KyoAni's better work, but only when we are talking about the overall aspect of animation. As far as the story goes, Shoji Gatoh gets the credit for how fluid it is. It's certainly one of the better ones in any genre, let alone the mecha-tag. The animated FMP is broken down in three portion: Full Metal Panic (by Gonzo in 2002 - yes, Gonzo started it all), Full Metal Panic: Fumoffu (by Kyoto Animation in 2003) and Full Metal Panic (by Kyoto Animation in 2005). Every one of this portion satisfactorily concludes the story they were telling. Yes, a certain resolution was reached in all three of these respective series for FMP.

What people in this thread are echoing (and in many other ones through out the forum which includes the dedicated FMP forum) that the novel did not stop producing new adventure and stories. That there is enough material to have a new season which can embark on another story with its own set of resolution. The previous ones certainly did not leave anything unfinished. A new season can build up to another story, but it won't affect any of the outcome that were reached respectively in the previous three seasons.

So yes, you can watch FMP without fearing the notion that the show abruptly concluded without resolving the story it was telling.

[Skane]

Do yourself a favour and at least watch the Fumoffu season, which is basically an omake season of FMP! It generated a lot of memes that are still in use today.

PONY.

One of my personal favourites,

Spoiler for Tidiness:

And then there is the Janitor... but I won't spoil the setup/punchline to that one for you.

Finally... there's the legendary Rugby episode. Haha... HAHAHAHA!

[thirdlc]

Originally Posted by ultimatemegax

As for speculation, I'd like to mention that KyoAni doesn't have one big staff anymore. There's different teams like the one that worked on K-On!, Haruhi, and even Nichijou had different members. Hyouka has gotten Takemoto, Nishiya, and Gatoh together. We don't know who will be working on Chuuni-byou yet, as it might be Yamada et al from K-On!. But where is Ishihara? At this point, there's too many unknowns to guess what's going on. Honestly, I'm looking forward to these new series from KyoAni.

In that sense of a director, a character designer and a series composition, they never had one big staff. The reason KyoAni is said to have only one staff is because all their members participate all their series. They still do.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by CrowKenobi

True, but then again, the thread shouldn't be used as an incessant whine-fest thread whining endlessly about how bad Kyoani's choices of new projects are when they should make more of "..." (or do Little Busters!) instead!

In essence: we get it, but you're preaching to the choir here as no one around here can do anything about it...

The last part doesn't make any sense. If we went by that, then why bother posting in a forum at all? We have many discussions about issues like politics in which well... most of us can't really do anything about it on a grand scale.

It's fine that if you feel if this particular conversation is monopolizing the conversation too much and needs to be curtailed (which I would have no issue with) but please don't imply certain people's opinions and the expressing of them to be pointless even if some of us are not interested thanks If that wasn't your intention then sorry, but that's how I read it as.

[CrowKenobi]

You're right, I should've expressed my intent differently while still indicating the circular nature of the discussion (like Endless Eight) that kept coming back to the same points repeatedly.

[Archon_Wing]

I guess we're all a bit dizzy from it. XD