2012-08-06, 13:28 | Link #9501 | |||
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2012-08-06, 15:26 | Link #9502 |
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Location: "Sacrifice one to appease the few."
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Uhh.. No he didn't. Unless of course Geass is a part of the system and taking over by killing his father despite the protests of his relatives who are forced to obey. He changed the system from the outside, had he done it Suzaku's way he wouldn't have rebelled and would have worked his way up into the position not steal it with Geass.
By choosing to work with Lelouch meant that Suzaku had given up on his ways and followed Lelouch's. And again, Lelouch was not within the system. One day everyone thought he was dead, the next he Geass'd everyone to serve him and than purposely did horrible things so that the world would hate him so that it could move on. Lelouch ended up taking the hate away from the real criminals and putting it upon himself. That doesn't change that criminals, like his relative that was wiling to nuke the world, got away scot-free and nothing was ever done about them. Suzaku was still dependent upon Lelouch. Had Lelouch just killed himself than and there than nothing would have changed despite anything Suzaku tried to do. His way just didn't work and he was reserved to the fact that he needed Geass to change how screwed up the world was. Thus he lost and as punishment he is to be Zero to enforce the peace so that Nunnally can have her ideal peaceful world that was changed not by the system but by Geass which is outside the system. Even with Nunnally dead it still didn't change that he still wanted to make the world she desired(and really, it's not the first time Nunnally has been in a compromising situation that made Lelouch go batshit crazy). Had the Black Knights not betrayed him he would have still lead them. Their betrayal was just the final straw since he was already dealing with Suzaku nuking things because of the Geass he put on him, thinking Suzaku sold him out, the supposed death of Nunnally, Shirley being dead, Rolo still around while Nunnally wasn't, and the such. Than there's the thing where he tried to make Kallen hate him, despite her willing to die for him, to save her. So it's understandable why he wanted to die. However, he wouldn't have resigned himself to that if he wasn't betrayed on top of everything else. |
2012-08-06, 19:45 | Link #9503 | ||||
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Suzaku agreed long before Lelouch thought of Zero Requiem to kill Charles in exchange for the Knight of One position under Schniezel. Do you think that counts as going outside of the system? Regardless of if you do, that already proves beyond any question that Suzaku wasn't "forced" by Lelouch into anything. Quote:
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2012-08-06, 22:02 | Link #9504 | |||||||
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Plus, Euphie would NEVER want her name to be cleared that way. Not to mention Suzaku didn't want to do it. And if Lelouch deserved to die, what about Cornelia, Guilford, Villetta, or Ohgi, for starters? Why do they get to live in the world they did NOTHING to deserve, or in the latter's case, nearly screw up? Quote:
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Besides, that would have just made Suzaku remain as hypocritically vindictive as ever. Suzaku was partly responsible for 35 million deaths in Japan, and as far as he and Lelouch knew, the death of Lelouch's other sister, Nunnally. Quote:
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Last edited by azul120; 2012-08-06 at 22:19. |
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2012-08-06, 22:09 | Link #9505 | |
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2012-08-06, 23:53 | Link #9508 | |||||
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Meanwhile, Lelouch's initial hatred was outward directed, towards Britannia, but at the end of the story turned inward into a suicidal resolve in atonement for his sins, paralleling early Suzaku. So yeah, this was a deliberate inversion on the part of the authors. At the start of the story, Lelouch valued "ends" over "means", being willing to commit any atrocity in order to destroy Britannia ("become evil to destroy evil"), while Suzaku (having already committed an atrocity) was consumed by guilt and self-hatred; by the end of the story Suzaku became consumed by the pursuit of power by any means in order to achieve his objectives (i.e. paralleling Lelouch's early justification of continuing forward so that the blood which has already been lost is not wasted) whereas Lelouch came to acknowledge the weight of his sins and thereby resolve himself to die in atonement. Lelouch's own initial plan was never right either: by committing atrocities, bearing sins, becoming evil himself to overcome the evil of Britannia, Lelouch was only continuing the chain of hatred (i.e. it was precisely because Suzaku was forced to "become evil for the sake of defeating evil" in trying to stop Lelouch that in the end he too was lead to abandon his morality). Whereas Suzaku's initial method would have only ended in his own death without accomplishing anything, Lelouch's initial method also only managed to exacerbate the pain and conflict. The resolution at the end of the story was thus a synthesis of initial Lelouch's hatred for the atrocities of others, and initial Suzaku's hatred for the atrocities of oneself, in the form of an "evil" which destroyed other "evils" by committing atrocities, but then atoned by destroying itself. Quote:
Lelouch deserved death in atonement above all those other people for his atrocities as the Emperor of Britannia. Those atrocities were in turn necessary to create the peaceful world Lelouch and Suzaku desired. Quote:
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As for this: I have no real interest in rehashing this discussion actually, personally, except that I had to talk down some of the truly delusional bullshit of that earlier Lelouch fanboy ("Lelouch won"? "Suzaku lost"? Jesus christ.). |
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2012-08-07, 15:53 | Link #9509 | ||||||
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And those people I mentioned earlier interfered with his earlier attempts at peace, either as opponents or spanners. Quote:
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2012-08-07, 16:43 | Link #9510 | |||||
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Abandoning his morality was necessary for Lelouch to achieve the power of the throne of Britannia in the first place. From the start the essential premise of Zero Requiem required Lelouch to have the resolve to make himself a demon (and, as a demon, be destroyed by Suzaku subsequently). Quote:
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2012-08-07, 20:54 | Link #9511 | |||||
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Self-sacrifice doesn't mean having to become a martyr. He could have devoted practically every waking hour to making sure the world ran properly. Moreover, Lelouch told Suzaku there were other methods when the latter felt uneasy about the whole thing, but it was what the former wanted. Quote:
Lelouch could have used Charles and Schneizel as examples of Britannian tyranny to Britannians as well, and helped support someone like Nunnally as a proper leader. Besides, the so-called peace wouldn't necessarily last, and they'd be at a relative deficit of competency without Lelouch. Quote:
Not to mention that there were other options for beating Schneizel by Lelouch's own admission. Quote:
Moreover, again, Suzaku was actually uneasy about Lelouch going through with ZR and asked Lelouch if there were other methods in the side materials. Quote:
Last edited by azul120; 2012-08-07 at 21:26. |
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2012-08-17, 21:25 | Link #9512 |
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Location: Poland
Age: 38
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What Lelouch wanted to get was similiar how world looks like now in reallity after Hitler, Stalin and Mao Tse-tung years of reign... In history it was always like this, people learn from mistakes and try to find way to prevent it in future- for example british Pax Britannica after defeating Napoleon in 1815 year to balance world...
Lelouch just believed in humans... That they will change world in they way they want it... Similiar how world changed now after two world wars and the Cold War and fall of communism... He cannot reign by himself, because it would be tyranny... It doesnt matter that he understand his mistakes, he understand them from begining of this series... From begining he wanted to only change the world, not to rule after... He knew that he will probably die in the end... It would be impossible to be good/saint ruler for him, dont matter how much he would try... It would be turanny in the end for sure, its just how he is... About Suzaku- his plan was really naive... Thinking that after one conclusive victory there will be no more fighting? Its never work that way- until nation is completely anihilated there will be still people who will fight for freedom... My country (Poland) was under occupation of Germany (Prussia), Russia and Austrian Empire for 123 years, but we still fighted for freedom for all this years and finally gain it after WW1... Good that Lelouch saved him in the end making him Zero, because without it he would screw everything what Lelouch done again... Fortunately his job as Zero isnt hard and brain is not necessary...
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2012-08-18, 02:56 | Link #9513 |
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I disagree. Post-tyrannies don't automatically result in world peace. Look at how WWII led to the Cold War and a bunch of other stuff. Zero Requiem was an excuse for him to die since he had given up on life.
And there were people who were worse than Lelouch who still lived in the end. A lot of what Lelouch did during the rebellion was out of necessity. ZR went way beyond that in terms of both severity and unnecessariness. To say it was him making amends is illogical. And the role of Zero DOES require brains, because that's part of the identity Lelouch established. |
2012-08-18, 12:00 | Link #9514 | ||
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We're back to the good old game, or so I see.
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Naturally, the political conditions in Code Geass aren't identical to anything that happened in the real world, which makes any of these examples of extremely limited use, but the new world doesn't need to be absolutely peaceful in order to still represent a measurable improvement over the previous years of open warfare between great powers. Every single one of the main factions, including Britannia, needs time to rebuild and re-organize, so reaching a few diplomatic compromises over any outstanding issues is a matter of mutual convenience. In any event, all of this is ultimately a matter of how much one wants to be a pessimist or optimist about an entirely fictional reality, when there is no way to confirm or deny what are purely personal assumptions and speculations about how the world would develop after the fact. There is not enough information to make any claims of objectivity here. Quote:
His first public act was one of direct physical assault against a dictator and not making the settlement fall on him after a speech, which also marks the transition of Zero from extravagant rebel to his new role as the protector of the post-ZR status quo. He went from being an outsider to becoming a part of the system. If all else fails, Suzaku can always use his connections to handle any complicated matters behind-the-scenes. |
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2012-08-18, 16:40 | Link #9515 |
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Join Date: Dec 2008
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The type of peace CG suggests is complete world peace, which never happened in reality.
Under the system or not,Lelouch would work out better as Zero for the sake of a single, autonomous, strategic and charismatic figurehead, while Suzaku could remain a knight. Preservation of proficiency. |
2012-08-18, 18:42 | Link #9516 | ||
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If you want to bring up reality despite its limited use, there have been shorter or longer periods of time without any major international wars, which is essentially what Lelouch wanted to stop more than anything else, and all the ending tells us about the nature of the current period of peace. The UFN isn't fighting Britannia, Britannia isn't fighting Japan, and even the E.U. is presumably trying to rebuild itself off-screen into something resembling unity. From what little we get to see, they are in fact at peace for now. Doesn't mean there can't be local conflicts at a much smaller scale, nor another world war in ten, twenty or fifty years. We just don't know what will happen, so it's silly to make statements of fact about this. In a way, I sort of want them to make an R3 after a few more years, without contradicting anything that happened during the show and actually having Suzaku play the role assigned to him by Lelouch, just to prove that this isn't such a big deal in the long run. I may not wish to see it for other reasons, but that's another matter. Speaking of Suzaku... Quote:
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2012-08-18, 21:47 | Link #9517 | |
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2012-08-19, 00:24 | Link #9518 | ||
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Last edited by azul120; 2012-08-19 at 03:11. |
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