Even by that definition it is still possible that Maria was killed by Rosa (or the other way around? °°), however, why? Anyway we'd still need a 3rd person to kill the survivor of the two so it's easier to imagine he killed both, and in that case Rosa must have died first.
Spoiler:
Hmmm....Maria was playing in the garden, maybe she went somewhere Rosa couldn't see and the killer killed her there. Rosa went to check or the killer exposed himself and then killed Rosa. I just find it suspicious that Maria didn't run or anything while her mother was being murdered....
Or, Maria was being deceived that the person was really Beatrice, so she stuck around and kept quiet.
Uhm not possible! We know that Rosa wasn't really comfortable with the idea of leaving the guest house, she knew there was a killer around and outside it was raining and storming. There's no way she left Maria playing alone. Plus Maria was looking for the rose and we know she has a pretty good idea where the rose is. Remember episode 1 when everyone suggested to look for the rose elsewhere but she kept on looking around the same spot.
Rosa's death could have occurred very suddenly; a good shove during an argument knocked her onto the fence, killing her. I doubt it was intentional; the fence is a pretty clumsy weapon. Things could go from talk to death in less time than it takes to turn around.
Uhm not possible! We know that Rosa wasn't really comfortable with the idea of leaving the guest house, she knew there was a killer around and outside it was raining and storming. There's no way she left Maria playing alone.
It may not be probable, but it's still possible I'm just saying that Maria could've wandered off while Rosa wasn't looking, maybe someone claiming to be Beatrice beckoned her over. Now I'm overthinking it.
Hum, I don't know if someone has posted this yet, but... backing to the first twilight:
Spoiler:
The closed rooms have already been destroyed by a handful of people; but what about their culprit? I find it weird that according to Beatrice, genji killed shannon and kanon using some kind of trick (by slashing their necks at the right spot); but they were found with other injuries. so, something is definetly different between the way Beatrice showed it to us and the non-fantasy world. for example, was Kumasawa really in the garden? I believe that she wasn't there, but actually at the room she was found dead at. (...I bet she was taking a nap.) Anyway, it is somehow implicit that all of the ones that died did so peacefully; or should I say, without making too much noise. I believe there's only one person that is capable of doing this at the moment- Nanjo. According to the text, everyone except him had alibis. With his medical and social knowledge (he had been in the mansion long enough and to top it off, he was trusted by Kinzo, and could probably enter his room at will.). From Kinzo's room, he could have made Kinzo call genji (probably while unsuspecting of Nanjo's murderous intentions), and made both drink poisoned drinks, or something else that put them both to sleep. Possibly also Kanon and Shannon. Then, Nanjo went to kill Kumasawa, which could be asleep in the room she was found, and Gohda, which could have actually dreamed the cackles in the kitchen. There is also another inconsistency- remeber Kanon's left hand? when he was found, where did that injury go? ...According to my knowledge, impaled hands don't heal up in the span of five or so hours.
...Just a quick remark :P
Spoiler:
also, even though I didn't quite reach that part yet, I don't remember there ever being any description of a fence in the rose garden in the past.
IIRC, Rosa was impaled through the base of the brain, at the back of the neck. There's not much bone in the area and it wouldn't have taken too much strength.
Hum, I don't know if someone has posted this yet, but... backing to the first twilight:
Spoiler:
The closed rooms have already been destroyed by a handful of people; but what about their culprit? I find it weird that according to Beatrice, genji killed shannon and kanon using some kind of trick (by slashing their necks at the right spot); but they were found with other injuries. so, something is definetly different between the way Beatrice showed it to us and the non-fantasy world. for example, was Kumasawa really in the garden? I believe that she wasn't there, but actually at the room she was found dead at. (...I bet she was taking a nap.) Anyway, it is somehow implicit that all of the ones that died did so peacefully; or should I say, without making too much noise. I believe there's only one person that is capable of doing this at the moment- Nanjo. According to the text, everyone except him had alibis. With his medical and social knowledge (he had been in the mansion long enough and to top it off, he was trusted by Kinzo, and could probably enter his room at will.). From Kinzo's room, he could have made Kinzo call genji (probably while unsuspecting of Nanjo's murderous intentions), and made both drink poisoned drinks, or something else that put them both to sleep. Possibly also Kanon and Shannon. Then, Nanjo went to kill Kumasawa, which could be asleep in the room she was found, and Gohda, which could have actually dreamed the cackles in the kitchen. There is also another inconsistency- remeber Kanon's left hand? when he was found, where did that injury go? ...According to my knowledge, impaled hands don't heal up in the span of five or so hours.
...Just a quick remark :P
Spoiler:
also, even though I didn't quite reach that part yet, I don't remember there ever being any description of a fence in the rose garden in the past.
Spoiler for Episode 3 first twilight:
In the fantasy version of Beatrice you are forgetting the fact that the endless witch can recover and mend any kind of damage at will. She can bring back to life anyone and cure any kind of injury, she also can repair damaged things.
After she kills Kumasawa/Virgilia, she tells Ronoue to erase all the mess that she has done and leave up to him to reconstruction of a complex closed room crime scene.
This is a pretty convenient trick for Beatrice. She can make Battler see anything she wants and if that doesn't match with reality she only needs to say that she erased what she did and remade it in another way (without explaining how).
As for Nanjo being the culprit, there are actually many people that believe it or that believe he is involved somehow. Even so there isn't any definitive proof and therre are still reasons to suspect others than him. Anyway Nanjo's death was stated in red later in episode3, if we assume that "that" Nanjo we see is an impostor (and therefore one of or the culprit) then the perfect EvaBeatrice web could be easily dismantled as anything she said about nanjo's death could be referring to an event in the past.
As for the fence i don't remember clearly either, but there is obviously one, since Rosa's body was found over it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rogerpepitone
Spoiler for Second twilight:
IIRC, Rosa was impaled through the base of the brain, at the back of the neck. There's not much bone in the area and it wouldn't have taken too much strength.
That's correct however it's not easy to pierce through that if the target is aware of the danger and moving, the chances that that was a surprise attack are high, or maybe
Spoiler for Episode3 second twilight:
Rosa did fell on the fence while fighting against her murder, or she fell on her own...
Let me get this straight, she was impaled through a fence by the murderer? I have to agree with some others on the fact that Maria would've heard her and saw the killer? o.O
I can't really say if the fence actually made that wound or if that was done with a weapon and then the culprit moved her body in such position. Anyway imho it is highly probable that Rosa was killed first and then the murderer proceed to strangle Maria to death. Of course Maria saw the killer, but what good would that bring to her? She died soon afterward anyway.
@Haruyan
Uhm that's a nice question, i always imagined it to be very low, but now that you mention it there is no real reason to think that way. I guess we'll have to wait for the anime or the manga to see that.
And uhm i think that killing someone by mistake is still considered homicide, but determining the causality of certain actions and the death of a person can be difficult in certain borderline cases.
@Peaches
Depends on how low it is the fence, if it is near the ground it is possible... oh it also depends on how sharp it is the spike (and rationally speaking it shouldn't be that sharp)
Anyway this possibility is very low, it is more probable tha someone else killed her with a weapon, a stake for example.
So, sorry to barge in the discussion but is there any website or a post on this thread with every red sentences Beato ever pronounced for this episode? I'd like to try out some theories but it's quite hard to remember everything she confirmed/denied.
Either way, thanks in advance. If there isn't one I guess I'll just have to skim through the game myself and transcribe them (\'-'/)
I had gone through and gotten them all and posted them in the Episode 4 thread, however, I assume you would want to avoid that thread, so I will post them here again.
Spoiler for Red Texts:
After the First Twilight of Episode 2:
真実を語る時、赤を使うことにする
(Everything spoken in red is the truth.)
妾が赤で語ることは全て真実
(Whenever I speak in red, it will be the truth)
生死は捨て置く。６人は確かに扉から入った
(Ignoring the fact of if they were living or dead. The six of them definitly walked through that door.)
礼拝堂の鍵は一本しか存在しない!
(Only one key to the chapel exists!)
礼拝堂の施錠は礼拝堂の鍵以外では開錠不可能!!
(As for locking the chapel, it's completly impossible with any key other than the chapel's!!)
礼拝堂の扉は、施錠時には如何なる方法での出入りも拒む!!
(There is no method to enter or exit the door of the chapel when it is locked!!)
６人は確かに“この正面扉”から入った!!
(The six people certainly entered from "this front door"!!)
楼座は今朝、確かに真里亞の手提げの中から封筒を取り出し、そこから正真正銘の礼拝堂の鍵を手 に入れたぞ。
(This morning, Rosa removed an envelope from Maria's purse and thereby obtained the genuine key to the chapel.)
妾が真里亞に預けた封筒の中身は、確かに礼拝堂の鍵だった。
(The contents of the envelope which I gave to Maria was certainly the key to the chapel.)
妾が真里亞に渡した封筒と、楼座が開封した封筒は同一のものであるぞ!!
(The envelope which I gave to Maria, and the one Rosa opened are the same envelopes!!)
After the Second Twilight of Episode 2:
マスターキーは使用人たちがそれぞれ持つ一本のみ
(Only the servants carry a master key, one to each of them.)
隠し扉の類は一切ない。
(There are no hidden doors.)
出入りはこの扉からだけだ。
(Entry and exit is only possible from this door.)
扉の施錠は、朱志香の鍵が一本と使用人たちが一本ずつ持つマスターキーのみ。
(The only way to lock this door is with Jessica's single key, or with the master keys, which there are one per servant.)
窓は内側から施錠されている。
(The window is locked from the inside.)
嘉音はこの部屋で殺された。
(Kanon was killed in this room.)
施錠時には如何なる方法をもってしても出入りは出来ぬ。
(Entry and exit is impossible when the door is locked.)
部屋の外から鍵を使わずに施錠するようなカラクリも通用せぬぞ。
(There is no device that can lock the door from the outside without the key.)
この部屋に隠し扉はない。
(There are no hidden doors in this room.)
扉と窓以外に出入りする方法はない。
(You cannot enter or exit other than through the door or window.)
After Nanjo's and Kumasawa's corpses dissapeared from the servant's room:
それなら使用人室の奥のキーボックスに収められているぞ。 (Talking about the Servant's Room key.)
(Those arestored in the key box inside the employee's room.)
使用人室の鍵は数本あるが、その全てがキーボックスに収められている。
(There are several keys to the Servant's Room, however, all of those are stored in the key box.)
出入りは唯一の扉と唯一の窓から以外は不可能。
(Entry and exit are impossible other than from the door or window.)
そしてそれらはいずれも施錠されていた。
(And both of them were locked.)
扉も窓も、施錠時には如何なる出入りも許さない。
(There is no way to enter or exit the door or window when they are locked.)
当然だが、扉の開錠は使用人室の鍵とマスターキー以外は不可能。
(Of course, it is impossible to unlock the door without the servant's room key or without the master keys.)
この部屋には、お前たち以外は存在しない。お前たちの定義とは、戦人、譲治、真里亞、楼座、源次、郷田、紗 音のことを指す。
(No one exists in this room, except all of you. All of you refers to Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, and Shannon.)
朱志香の死体発見時、朱志香の部屋にいたのは、戦人、譲治、真里亞、楼座、源次、郷田、紗音、熊沢、南條の みだった。
(At the time of the discovery of Jessica's corpse, the only people in the room were Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo.)
朱志香ももちろん含む。
(Of course, that includes Jessica.)
よって、朱志香の部屋の件、そしてこの使用人室の件の両方について、そなたが認識していた以外の人間は存在 しない。
(Therefore, in both the case of Jessica's room and the servant's room, there were no other humans that you weren't aware of.)
誰も隠れていない。
(No one was hidden.)
扉は鍵を使用せずに外から施錠する方法は存在しない。
(There is no method which can unlock the door from the outside without using the key.)
窓については外からは如何なる方法でも施錠する方法は存在しない。
(As for the window, no method exists to lock it from the outside.)
After Genji, Gohda, Shannon, and George left the parlor:
マスターキーは５本しかない。
(There are only 5 master keys.)
マスターキーは５本しかない。
(There are only 5 master keys.)
マスターキーは５本しかないって、楼座に言ってやるよ！
(I'll say to Rosa, there are only 5 master keys!)
妾は約束は守る。
(I keep my promises.)
After George, Shannon, and Gohda were found murdered, and the letter was found in the parlor:
夏妃の部屋もまったく同じだぞ、いつもの通り!
(Natsuhi's room is the same, as always!)
扉も窓も内側から施錠されていた。
(The door and windows are locked from the inside.)
如何なるイカサマも細工もなく、そして隠された通行手段もなければ隠れる場所もないッ!
(There is no fraud or trick, there are no secret passages or hidden places!)
夏妃自身の鍵は譲治のポケットに入って、室内に閉じ込められていた。
(Natsuhi's key was in George's pocket, shut inside the room which was closed off.)
あとは５本のマスターキーしかないが、それは全て“楼座”が持っているッ!
(There are only five master keys, however 'Rosa' has them all!)
ついでに言おう、その客間も同じよ。
(I'll also say, the parlor is the same.)
本来の客間の鍵は使用人室に封印されている。
(The original key to the parlor is closed off in the servant's room.)
だからマスターキー以外では開錠不能！ 部屋の密室定義もいつもに同じよ！
(Therefore, unlocking it without the master key is impossible! The closed room definition is the same as always!)
Episode 3:
While the stakes torture Battler:
六軒島に存在する全ての扉は、鍵が通り抜けられる隙間などない。 (Spoken by Belephegor)
(Of every door on Rokkenjima, none have a crack through which a key can fit.)
After Battler's 18 people + X theory:
妾には真実を赤で語る力があろうがッ！！！
(I have the power to speak the truth in red!!!)
During Beato's Past:
六軒島の森の中には、九羽鳥庵という隠し屋敷が実在します。 (Spoken by Ronove)
(The hidden mansion, Kuwadorian, exists in the forest of Rokkenjima.)
かつて、実際にこの場所で、お二人はこのような会話をなされました。 (Spoken by Ronove)
(In the past, those two actually had a conversation like that in this place.)
ここは１９６７年の世界。 (Spoken by Ronove)
(Here is the world of 1967.)
１９６７年の六軒島の隠し屋敷に、人間としてのベアトリーチェさまが存在した。 (Spoken by Ronove)
(In the hidden mansion of Rokkenjima of 1967, Beatrice-sama existed as a human.)
After Rosa and Beato's past:
間違いなく死んでいる。
(She is certainly dead.)
この六軒島に１９人以上の人間は存在しない!
(In this Rokkenjima 19 or more people don't exist!)
During the First Twilight reconstruction:
各使用人が１本ずつで５本だ。 (about the Master Keys)
(There are five, one per servant.)
ちなみに、６つの部屋の扉や窓はいずれも普通。オートロックのような、鍵を使用せず施錠できるような仕掛け は存在しない。
(By the way, each of the doors and windows of the six rooms are normal. There is no device that can lock it without a key, such as an autolock.)
金蔵、源次、紗音、嘉音、郷田、熊沢の６人は死亡している！
(Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa, 6 people in total are dead!)
６つの部屋には誰も隠れていない！
(There is no one hiding in the six rooms!)
６人は即死であった！
(Six people were killed instantly!)
室内には犠牲者しかおらず、それ以外の人物は室内には存在しておりません。 (Spoken by Ronove)
(Only the victims were inside the room, and no other people exist inside the room.)
６人はトラップで殺されてはいない!
(The six people were not killed by a trap!)
６人は誰も自殺していない！
(None of the six people committed suicide!)
After Rosa and Maria's death:
楼座と真里亞は死亡した。
(Rosa and Maria are dead.)
死因は南條の見立て通りだ。
(The cause of death is the same as Nanjo's diagnosis.)
楼座と真里亞の二人は他殺です。 (Spoken by Ronove)
(Both Rosa and Maria were killed by another person.)
After everyone except Eva, Battler, and Jessica are dead:
わしはずっと部屋におったで。 (Spoken by Hideyoshi)
(I was in the room the entire time.)
事件の前後の時間帯は全てや。 (Spoken by Hideyoshi)
(Before and after the crimes were committed.)
霧江は食料はいらないと考えてた。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Kyrie was thinking food is not needed.)
一日くらい食事を抜いても死なないのだからと、ゲストハウスを出ないべきだと主張していた。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Since going without food for a day wouldn't kill them, she claimed they shouldn't leave the guesthouse.)
にもかかわらず彼女は自ら、食料を取りにゲストハウスを出ようと提案する。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
And yet, she herself made the suggestion to leave the guest house and get food.
その心変わりの理由は、誰にも語られておらず、また記されてもいない! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(She didn't tell anyone the reason she changed her mind, nor was it written!)
霧江はね、死ぬ最後の瞬間まで“食料を取りに行かない＝屋敷に行かない”という行動式を維持し ていたわ! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Up until the last moment Kyrie died, maintained her behavior that "not going to get food = not going to the mansion"!)
霧江は何も書き残してはいない! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Kyrie did not leave any written note!)
朱志香負傷後。絵羽は常に戦人の監視下にあった。戦人は犯人でもなく共犯者でもない。よって、絵羽の完全な アリバイを証明できる。(Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(After Jessica was injuried, Eva was always under Battler's supervision. Battler isn't the culprit or an accomplice. With this, we've made a perfect alibi for Eva.)
この島には１９人以上の人間はいない。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(There are no more than 19 people on this island.)
[人間以外の生命は一切、このゲームに関係がない。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(No life-forms other than humans have any relation to this game.)
金蔵は死亡している。蔵臼は死亡している。夏妃は死亡している。秀吉は死亡している。譲治は死亡している。 留弗夫は死亡している。霧江は死亡している。楼座は死亡してい。真里亞は死亡している。源次は死亡している 。紗音は死亡している。嘉音は死亡している。郷田は死亡している。熊沢は死亡している。南條は死亡している 。以上、１５人は死亡。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Kinzo is dead. Krauss is dead. Natsuhi is dead. Hideyoshi is dead. George is dead. Rudolph is dead. Kyrie is dead. Rosa is dead. Maria is dead. Genji is dead. Shannon is dead. Kanon is dead. Gohda is dead. Kumasawa is dead. Nanjo is dead. 15 people are dead.)
戦人は生存している。絵羽は生存している。朱志香は生存している。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Battler is alive. Eva is alive. Jessica is alive.)
絵羽はあなたとずっと一緒にいたわ。だから犯行は不可能。もちろん戦人くんは犯人じゃないわ。アリバイ偽装 なんてしてないし、彼女が犯人の可能性も考慮していたから、その行動は用心深く見張ってた。彼女には、不審 なことをできるあらゆる可能性が存在しなかった！つまり、犯行時の使用人室には、南條と朱志香しかいなかっ たのよ。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Eva and you were together the entire time. Of course, Battler-kun isn't the culprit. He wasn't forging her alibi, and taking into account she might be the culprit, watched over her actions carefully. There was no oppurtunity for her to do something suspicious! In other words, only Jessica and Nanjo were in the servant's room at the time of the crime.)
右代宮朱志香は殺人を犯していない! 南條殺しにかかわっていない!! 彼女の目は完全に塞がれている。その彼女に殺人を行なうことは不可能よ。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Ushiromiya Jessica did not commit murder! She was not involved in Nanjo's murder!! Her eyes were completly blocked. It's impossible for her to commit murder like that.)
絵羽と戦人も南條を殺していないし、かかわってもいないッ！！ (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Neither Eva or Battler murdered Nanjo, nor were they involved!!)
南條を殺した犯人は、戦人でも絵羽でも朱志香でもない!! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(The culprit who murdered Nanjo was neither Battler not Eva nor Jessica!!)
朱志香の目は完全に塞がれていて、彼女に殺人は不可能! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Jessica's eyes were completly blocked off, so it is impossible for her to murder anyone!)
朱志香の身体が起こした如何なる動作も、南條の殺人には関係・影響しない! この適用を戦人と絵羽にも広げるわ。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(No actions done by Jessica's body was related, or influenced, Nanjo's murder! This also applies to Battler and Eva.)
朱志香と戦人と絵羽は、南條を殺した犯人ではない! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Jessica nor Battler not Eva were the culprit who killed Nanjo!)
南條は他殺よ。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Nanjo was murdered.)
もちろん、トラップではなく、直接的な殺害方法よ。 (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(Of course, it wasn't a trap, it was a direct murder.)
凶器を構え、それにて真正面の至近距離から殺した！ 犯人は、南條の目の前に堂々と現れ、そして互いに顔を見合わせながら、殺害したのだ...!! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(A weapon was prepared and he was killed by it at point-blank range! The culprit appeared right infront of Nanjo's eyes and as they looked at each other's face he was killed...!!)
赤は真実のみを語るッ！！！(Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(The red only tells truths!!!)
人間以外の一切の要素は、このゲーム盤に関与しない! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(All elements other than humans don't partcipate on this game board!)
南條を殺したのは、確かに人間である! (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(That which killed Nanjo, was certainly a human!)
地に足の付いた人間が、凶器をかざし、それにて殺した！眼前にて！ (Spoken by Eva-Beatrice)
(A human, with their feet on the ground, held up a weapon and killed him! Right infront of his eyes!)
I thought the fence was a considerable height? Didn't it say somewhere that she was flapping or moving because of the wind or something? Maybe I'm just out of it. XD Could be imagining it.
2009-03-05, 22:36
I'm just saying that Maria could've wandered off while Rosa wasn't looking, maybe someone claiming to be Beatrice beckoned her over. Now I'm overthinking it.
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