[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 7 Requiem of the golden witch

[Jan-Poo]

I can't be totally sure but I think Will is dividing the tricks in two categories:

Illusion to illusion: tricks that involve some manipulation on the informations themselves. That is some person lied to create the illusion of a crime. For example Kanon and Genji lied in EP1 when they said the chainlock was set.

and

earth to earth: tangible tricks, deceptions that directly trick the detective's eye like for example a person faking her death, a fake corpse a fake key and so on.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

earth to earth: tangible tricks, deceptions that directly trick the detective's eye like for example a person faking her death, a fake corpse a fake key and so on.

「第３のゲーム、第二の晩。薔薇庭園にて親子は骸を重ねる。」
「土は土に。……語られし最期に、何の偽りもなし。」
Rosa and Maria died. The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed.

he used "soil to soil"

I think it's "earth to earth", because of Virgilia's poem in the beginning: 土は土に。灰は灰に、塵は塵に。幻は幻に。そして、夢は夢に。 and yet another religious reference. "Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust; in sure and certain hope of the Resurrection to eternal life".

[Renall]

I was under the impression he meant it in a "dust to dust" sense, like the deaths when he states those are as real as they appear to be. Thus, he'd be claiming that locked room is in fact full of real-life corpses. I could be off base there.

"Illusion to illusion" then being used to describe situations where there is trickery, fakery, or lies. He mentions "the golden truth" constructing the illusion a few times, which makes it sound like he's talking about a mutually-agreed story. If so, that states outright what the gold truth is.

[Used Can]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

earth to earth: tangible tricks, deceptions that directly trick the detective's eye like for example a person faking her death, a fake corpse a fake key and so on.

I thought the same thing. However, for EP1's 1st Twilight, which pretty much involves a person faking his/her death, we got "illusion to illusion".

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by cmos

「第３のゲーム、第二の晩。薔薇庭園にて親子は骸を重ねる。」
「土は土に。……語られし最期に、何の偽りもなし。」
Rosa and Maria died. The cause of death was as Nanjo diagnosed.

I really don't understand the "earth to earth" hints. When Will uses the "illusion to illusion" in most cases I can understand what kind of solution it implies, but in when he says "earth to earth" there doesn't seem to be any real answer.

In this case the only problem of that twilight is to explain who performed the murder.
Battler in EP3 won simply by pointing Eva as the culprit. So what is Will trying to say? That this is exactly how it went?

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

In this case the only problem of that twilight is to explain who performed the murder.
Battler in EP3 won simply by pointing Eva as the culprit. So what is Will trying to say? That this is exactly how it went?

Eva could have done it. Rudolf could have done it. Theoretical Still Alive Shkanon could have done it. But that whole scene strikes me as a crime of passion, like Rosa was accidentally killed and Maria was killed in a panic. Blameworthy, perhaps, but not the work of the culprit.

[Used Can]

I'm still wondering why they didn't address EP3's 9th Twilight in Claire and Will's duel.

[ijriims]

I suppose one has to read Kureru's description of the twilight in order to get the meaning of "illusion to illusion" and "dust to dust". ie, reading the context.

Almost whenever Kureru mentioned "locked room", Will responded with "illusion to illusion", saying that the locked rooms were fabricated. But for 4th, 5th and 6th twilight, Kureru described it Natsuhi's room as a closed room with no survivor, Will responded with "dust to dust", meaning that he affirmed for what she said. So there were no fake deaths, and it was indeed a closed room upon observation.

So in short, "illusion to illusion" denied what Kureru said, while "dust to dust" confirmed it.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Ah, forgive me for my poor wording. I was actually arguing due to the "possibility that the stake was driven so hard it could pierce through the back as well".
There is no mistake that anyone but a child can drive such kind of weapon in someone's chest. A brutal impact would be required, but certainly nothing inhuman indeed.
I'm however sceptical that someone would be able to pierce someone -completely- even through the back with a one handed stake.

As for the blood trail, assuming the blood is absorbed by Gohda's clothes, we can speculate that there may be no blood trail if we consider a short distance of a meter at most. As long as the stake isn't removed, the blood isn't going to flow that much, but certainly becomes noticeable at some point.

Pierce through the back... no blood trail... aaaah....!!

Where is it!? Shannon was shot in the forehead, right? So where is the exit wound, where is the blood spray? No matter what Device X could be thought up for hiding the gun, with the position she was in, she would have had to stand directly in front of the mirror, press the gun to her forehead, and pull the trigger herself at point-blank range. Behind her should be a gorey mess -- but there's not even a single trace. It's completely impossible for her to have committed suicide that way!

So did the culprit kill her somewhere else and then pose the body at the dresser? No, that's also impossible. Unlike George and Gohda, Shannon doesn't have a stake plugging up her wound, and it's a head wound on top of that. Any attempt to move her would have left a clear trail of blood, but again there's no sign of one in the crime scene. So in other words, Shannon was never moved after her death.

But then how could the culprit have shot her in the forehead while she was facing the mirror, and without causing a spray of blood behind her? Well, in fact, there was one significant bit of spatter Battler found at the crime scene... but it wasn't behind Shannon. It was in front of her, on the bloody, shattered mirror that was so hard to explain. Combining that with the position of her body leads to an entirely different interpretation of her death. The fourth twilight of the epitaph, the bloody stake, Battler's examination of the wound, all of it was a misdirection. Shannon wasn't shot in the forehead, the culprit put a gun to the back of her neck and executed her from behind.

By this theory, the bullet passed through Shannon's skull, exited through her forehead, and shattered the mirror, covering it with gore. She collapsed face-first onto the dresser, leaving her cap covering up the entry wound. Gravity ensured that she would bleed out mostly through the exit wound, creating the massive puddle of blood she was lying in, so there wasn't any seepage to alert Battler that she'd been shot.

[chounokoe]

The whole locked room in Natsuhi's room somehow stinks, we all know that. But somehow something is off with the whole scene how it is presented.

According to the scene we saw the order of death was Gohda -> George + Shannon. At least it seemed like they both died at the same moment.
According to the endroll and the way their corpses are prepared a different order is implied, which is Shannon -> Gohda -> George. This is because, 'gouge the head' (Shannon), 'gouge the chest' (Gohda) and 'gouge the stomach' (George).
So one of the things we should ask is: Why is the order of death presented in relation to the epitaph another than what we saw in the magic scene? Does someone want to hide the fact that the order was Gohda -> George + Shannon or the other way around?

Then we have Shannon's impossible position on the dresser, lying face down in a pool of blood with the stake just rolling beside her head. We know from Episode 1, that it is possible to fix the stake into a skull, from the corpses of Eva and Kinzo...why didn't the culprit do so? Especially when Shannon was never actually PIERCED by a stake ever (Episode 1 and 3 she was in the 1st twilight and in Episode 4 the stake was placed beside her as well).

Connected to Shannon's corpse is also the strange reaction by Rosa, when she notices Battler touching her corpse and inspecting her head.
Battler says that he could see right into Shannon's head through that hole and that he realized he had done something that he better had not done. Normally you would think he was refering to the act that he touched a corpse, but somehow it bothers me when I think about Rosa.
She pushes Battler away with brute force, saying that he should not touch anything, to not tamper with the crime-scene, and wait for the police to arrive.
Yet we know that later on she is seen together with Maria, trying to flee from the island, even ready to swim part of the way...so we can assume that she knows that 'a disaster of some kind' is about to occur.

They entered Natsuhi's room some time after 21:00h (because it's implied that Genji found Nanjo and Kumasawa around 9pm).
It's also implied (even though it was a magic scene) that Beatrice goes to Kinzo's room at 22h (the scene ending at 22:10h). That is when Rosa and Maria seem to have just decided to leave the parlour after the 4th letter was found by Battler.
Next time we see Rosa it is 23:59h and they try to escape the island.
So either somehow between 22h and 23:59h something must have happened that informed Rosa about the fact that she is not safe on the island, or she was pushing Battler away for another reason than to wait for the police.

The problem is, we don't know where Rosa could have got that information from. But there are of course several possibilities:
a) The magic rune in the letter was recognized by Maria as a summoning circle for something big and destructive. Rosa recognized what this implied and decided to flee together with Maria.
b) There was a hidden keyword in the 4th letter that Rosa recognized and not trusting Battler anymore, she decided to flee only with Maria.
c) After she left the parlour, she was approached by another person (Kanon, Genji, culpritX, Beatrice, magical Kinzo, Yasu) with information about the impending explosion. Not trusting or told not to trust Battler, she decided to flee from the island only with Maria.
d) Maria knew about the possible explosion from the start and Rosa got it out of her somehow and decided to flee with her.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Shannon was shot in the forehead, right? So where is the exit wound, where is the blood spray? No matter what Device X could be thought up for hiding the gun, with the position she was in, she would have had to stand directly in front of the mirror, press the gun to her forehead, and pull the trigger herself at point-blank range. Behind her should be a gorey mess -- but there's not even a single trace.

By this theory, the bullet passed through Shannon's skull, exited through her forehead, and shattered the mirror, covering it with gore. She collapsed face-first onto the dresser, leaving her cap covering up the entry wound.

The gun used was probably a copy of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare%27s_leg Simply because we have no information about any other guns. And according to the TIPS, it uses these bullets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_LC These bullets are hollow point, meaning that they will expand inside the target, which causes their slow down. This gun and the bullets aren't the most powerful ones. Furthermore, Shannon was shot into the forehead, that has a very thick and firm bone.
And I have an evidence from a real suicide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Alfonso_Cerna
As you can see, a man shot himself in the temple (that has a thinner bone than the forehead and less distance inside the skull for a bullet) with a .45 caliber handgun, yet the bullet didn't come out from the other side of the skull. Therefore, it's perfectly possible that the bullet won't go all the way through the skull and exit from the other side and Shannon could have committed such suicide.

the culprit put a gun to the back of her neck and executed her from behind

In case of murder, why didn't the culprit stake her properly? The culprit didn't have any problems staking the skulls in other cases. There's no point in leaving the stake to lie nearby unless it's impossible to put it into the hole. Naturally, it's hard to do with your own skull.

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by cmos

In case of murder, why didn't the culprit stake her properly? The culprit didn't have any problems staking the skulls in other cases. There's no point in leaving the stake to lie nearby unless it's impossible to put it into the hole. Naturally, it's hard to do with your own skull.

And In Episode 2's case that is perfectly possible, because there is no need for any murders to occur after Shannon's death. The only problems we have in this case are:
- who hid the gun after Shannon commited suicide and who locked the room?
- who was the person in Kinzo's study whom Battler was invited to meet?
- why are we presented to cases that are totally different from that truth (either Shannon dying together with George or dying first of the three)?

In Episode 4 we have a similar problem, because Shannon is killed in a way that seems difficult to do by suicide (blowing away half of your face), yet of course not impossible. But again we would be confronted by the problem of the vanishing weapon.

This of course could be solved by both Kanon and Shannon also existing as Beatrice on the island.

[rogerpepitone]

chounokoe: Shannon's suicide is easy to explain in Episode 4. She was found right next to the well, remember? She could have stood with the weapon partway through a hole in the grating (optionally, tie a weight to the gun and drop the weight down the well). After she died, the gun would fall down the well and be inaccessible.

[cmos]

Originally Posted by chounokoe

- who hid the gun after Shannon commited suicide and who locked the room?

Already explained some pages back.

- who was the person in Kinzo's study whom Battler was invited to meet?

Bomb exploded earlier or the game has already been over, because meta-Battler had given up. Therefore, it was a magic scene with all these golden butterflies flying around.

- why are we presented to cases that are totally different from that truth (either Shannon dying together with George or dying first of the three)?

Why are we presented with ep4 fantasy scenes that are completely absurd and different from the truth?
By the way, it's not that different from the truth. Shannon resisted the witch until the very end, but in the end Beatrice killed them. Seems accurate to me.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by cmos

Why are we presented with ep4 fantasy scenes that are completely absurd and different from the truth?

Well, it's possible most of that comes from Kyrie's call to Battler, and is the "intended" story he was to be given for whatever reason. Everyone being actually dead would be the killer's own prerogative.

EDIT: Apropos of nothing, those sprites line up a little too well...

Spoiler for Bad edit, bad thoughts:

[Used Can]

As for the whole Rosa deal, I think it's worth mentioning again, she and Maria have never been staked. So, that makes 4 people who have never been staked: Battler, Shannon, Rosa and Maria. I'd add Kanon as well, but his corpse has never been seen by Battler.

Originally Posted by Renall

EDIT: Apropos of nothing, those sprites line up a little too well...

Spoiler for Bad edit, bad thoughts:

Hey! I have the same fetish.

[Helmet-kun]

Originally Posted by Renall

EDIT: Apropos of nothing, those sprites line up a little too well...

Spoiler for Bad edit, bad thoughts:

Somewhere in hell, Lion is bitching and moaning about how a crazy suicide bomber who's suppose to be her has huge knockers and she doesn't.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by cmos

The gun used was probably a copy of this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mare%27s_leg Simply because we have no information about any other guns. And according to the TIPS, it uses these bullets: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_LC These bullets are hollow point, meaning that they will expand inside the target, which causes their slow down. This gun and the bullets aren't the most powerful ones. Furthermore, Shannon was shot into the forehead, that has a very thick and firm bone.
And I have an evidence from a real suicide: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ricardo_Alfonso_Cerna
As you can see, a man shot himself in the temple (that has a thinner bone than the forehead and less distance inside the skull for a bullet) with a .45 caliber handgun, yet the bullet didn't come out from the other side of the skull. Therefore, it's perfectly possible that the bullet won't go all the way through the skull and exit from the other side and Shannon could have committed such suicide.

Thank you for the links, they were very informative. I'll accept the possibility that there might not be an exit wound...but that's only if it was in fact a hollow-point bullet. You're conflating the bullet with the cartridge. Kinzo bought these guns for recreation, which means he was probably either hunting very small game (there doesn't seem to be any larger wildlife on the island) or doing target shooting with them. What would he need .45 HP rounds for?

Here and here are some lists I found of alternate kinds of bullets you can load a .45 Long Colt cartridge with. I'm not knowledgeable enough about firearms to know for sure what Kinzo's likely to have though. Maybe we have an expert on the forum who can comment?

Originally Posted by cmos

In case of murder, why didn't the culprit stake her properly? The culprit didn't have any problems staking the skulls in other cases. There's no point in leaving the stake to lie nearby unless it's impossible to put it into the hole. Naturally, it's hard to do with your own skull.

In the anime, the culprit did try to put it in the hole. However, due to the location and nature of the wound, the culprit couldn't get at it easily without being covered with blood.

The crimes in EP3-4 show that the culprit simply isn't all that concerned about the stakings being accurate. Some victims were staked in the wrong location, or weren't staked at all in spite of there being stakes to spare. The TIPS in EP3 even make it sound like the culprit is just playing around and staking corpses on a whim after killing them with a different weapon. If there's really no particular compelling reason to do it, then the culprit doesn't have to bother when it's too much of an inconvenience.

Alternately, the culprit has a connection to Shannon and couldn't bring himself to look at her face after killing her. (*coughGeorgecough*)

[chounokoe]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Here and here are some lists I found of alternate kinds of bullets you can load a .45 Long Colt cartridge with. I'm not knowledgeable enough about firearms to know for sure what Kinzo's likely to have though. Maybe we have an expert on the forum who can comment?

I think we can assume that the most common bullets were used in such a weapon, meaning the ones that were also implied by the TIPs. To use another kind of bullet would fall under certain tropes of mysteryrules as 'unpresented hint', as most readers cannot be expected to be experts on bullet use. It at least had to be foreshadowed in a way if the bullets were different from the ones normally used with those weapons...was it anywhere? I never payed that much attention to the guns usage...

In the anime, the culprit did try to put it in the hole. However, due to the location and nature of the wound, the culprit couldn't get at it easily without being covered with blood.

Did we actually see the stake sticking in her forehead?! I think it was impossible to see because the moment Battler touched her the stake was rolling away...so it was at least not fixed into the skull properly, maybe even just lying next to it to make it appear as if it was.

The crimes in EP3-4 show that the culprit simply isn't all that concerned about the stakings being accurate.

But then again the question would remain, why the culprit (if it is the culprit's work) uses the stakes in the first place. 抉る (to gouge, to hollow out, to bore) is a rather broad term and it wouldn't be necessary to use such an elaborate scheme like 'demon stakes' if the culprit wasn't interested in using them properly.
I think your 2nd suggestion, that the culprit couldn't bring himself to desecrate certain bodies rings closer to the truth than just common disinterest.

Also the place where Shannon was shot (or hurt by any other means) is not necessarily one that would cause a messier result than any other wounds. On the contrary, I think that if the culprit was affraid of getting dirty he would have risked much more by sticking the stake into George's stomach or even Gohda's chest (no matter if back or front). Even after the blood has stopped pumping, the risk of pumping more blood or other fluids out while pressing on the stomach is extremely high.

If that were true and we are dealing with a culprit who is NOT the Shannon on the dresser, we would be searching for someone who has a certain reluctance to stake Shannon, Rosa and Maria (Battler is obvious if he has the relation to Beatrice which she hints at). The one who sticks out for me is Rosa, because the only reason not to desecrate her body I could think of would be not to upset Maria...
Yet again that might be true, because Maria was killed in both instances (as it appears) shortly after discovering her mothers body, but by very 'undesecrating means'.

[Renall]

The culprit isn't going to use the stakes unless one of two things is true:

1) He/she is intending to fake the epitaph.
2) He/she happens to have the stakes on hand.

Nobody's gonna go looking for a bunch of stake-like paperweights if they don't already know it exists. If we're going to reject 1), how'd they get the stakes for 2)?