[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[Ronove]

Originally Posted by Arcanis

I have a couple of questions that have been bothering me. I thought I'd try asking them here.


1) How could Featherine have written those tales about Beato's game if she says at the end of EP6 that she hasn't reached the full answer and would like to play the game herself to find all of it. Wouldn't that mean that the tales she claims to have written (EP2-EP6) are all inaccurate?

And if they aren't inaccurate, then wouldn't EP7 be like a Game Master stepping down to play the part of the human player? That's not even a game, it'd be like playing cards against yourself (I know she won't play both sides at the same time but you know what I mean).

From my own theory, Rokkenjima is basicallyl a Cat Box Thing, so I'm supposing anythign can happen (any tale can occur) as long as the truth is there: Everyone dies? Somehow, someway. Be it magic, a love trial, or a crazed grandfather on a killing spree.

Remember, Featherine is testing her theory based on Bern's game. If Bern is becoming the game master, I'm supposing she knows some form of the truth.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by k//eternal

The way people approach this game lately, seems like the white is too unreliable and the red is some kind of code language. But then we have no idea what's happening on Rokkenjima at all. Forget mystery, that's not even a story.

Better to assume that the red is at least consistent with its definitions.

It's actually better to think of the white as true, actually. Obviously towers aren't growing out of the ground...

What I'm finding is that it's helpful to think of the fantasy scenes as a truth that people on the gameboard are coming up with. Not just, 'Beatrice pulled it out of her ass.' After all, Beatrice is represented by the people on the gameboard too...

Also... it's useful not to think about Genji being a 'vessel' for Ronove. Or anyone or anything being a 'vessel.' That's the magic definition after all. It might be useful to think of Ronove as Genji's character. Or Genji's younger representation that someone wrote into the story...

[Misuzu]

Originally Posted by UsagiTenpura

I thought the only red concerning Sakutarou's "death" was that Beatrice was unable to revive him with her magic. Guess I'm wrong.

I'm pretty sure you're right. I checked the red text wiki and the only Sakutarou red listed is "magic was not able to revive Sakutarou". I'd have to replay Episode 4 to be sure, though.

I think that's it's extremely difficult to make something like Shkanon work in the first place. Books, movies, and the like that have used similar plot twists and pulled it off have had to set it up very carefully and wisely choose the way they present information to the reader. Ryukishi is a very talented and capable writer, and I don't understand why he would have made a lot of the choices that he did if Shkanon was true. When I turn the chessboard over, the only explanation I can think of is "cheap tricks to make the game harder", and I really believe he's better than that. I can't understand what the purpose of the love trials of if it is true though, though I will say I don't think Shkanon is the best solution for the logic error or the final red.

In a way, Shkanon makes me think of those ridiculous comedies that have a character dress up as the opposite sex and hang around their friends, and you are supposed to believe that nobody has any idea even though they usually look exactly the same and just have different hair, clothes, or maybe a stuffed bra. Movies with more convincing disguises like Mrs. Doubtfire that I could see maybe fooling people involved the help of a professional makeup artist, even within the movie's plot. Maybe Kinzo wanted to get into the theater business, and the Fukuin house trained kiddies in acting, makeup artistry, and costume design.

I think I might end up spoiling myself a little on Episode 7 so that if I am going to be let down in a major way I'll have time to get over the disappointment before I have the chance to play the game for myself.

[Thunder Book]

It isn't directly confirmed in Episode 6 IIRC.

[UsagiTenpura]

Originally Posted by Misuzu

In a way, Shkanon makes me think of those ridiculous comedies that have a character dress up as the opposite sex and hang around their friends, and you are supposed to believe that nobody has any idea even though they usually look exactly the same and just have different hair, clothes, or maybe a stuffed bra.

That's so one of my points against it. There's no way, at the very least, that George and Jessica could be fooled. It's also weird that no one ever tells them "you look alike".

That doesn't mean it's not the truth, but yeah, I do think some Shkanon points would be very hard to swallow, this one being the biggest.

Ryukishi might be going toward a credibility suicide tho. Higurashi had both fantasy and science fiction elements in it, but we sorta expected that much after a few arcs. The problem with Umineko is that he himself raised the bar of our expectations higher, if he doesn't live up to his own challenge, I believe it will simply crush his reputation. If anything, if the truth involves dead not meaning dead, I'm pretty certain most of us won't bother to challenge Ryukishi's next riddle. There won't be a point in seriously trying to solve mysteries who's explanation is that we have been lied to.

[Astargoth]

For me the most rediciolous idea about Shkanon is the concept anyone could keep up such a charade for 3 years. Even if we were talking about some kind of unholy Solid Snake/Sam Fisher hybrid with a side order of a Hollywood make up artist, there is no way in hell you could maintain the illusion for 3 years. Simply cannot be done even.

"Shannon I told you to clean the second story bedroom, yet when I went there, I didn't find you. Where were you?"
"Kannon, I asked for all the servants to be present in the Servant's Room, and yet you weren't there. Why?"

Everybody on the island is either blind, deaf and dumb, or they're on it. Pick your poison.

That said I have no idea how to interpret the end of the love trial after discarding Shkannon.

[Kitsu]

Just a quick question. What time and day was it that Erika was searching for Battler and the Kanon rescue happened?

[TsundereCake]

Hey, is this the thread where we all spoil Episode 7 for one another tomorrow? I forgot which thread such fun goes in.

It is tomorrow right?

[Kitsu]

Hey, is this the thread where we all spoil Episode 7 for one another tomorrow? I forgot which thread such fun goes in.

It is tomorrow right?

Yes, this is the right thread but I'm not quite sure because there was a lot of the confusion last time. Until an Episode 7 thread is made the stuff defintely goes here.

Yes, around tomorrow I think.

[Burkie]

Originally Posted by moichispa

I was just reading this page and I'm a bit confused

Spoiler for EP6 spoiler:

In what moment of ep6 does the bomb thing have been confirmed? and how?

Thanks in advance

Spoiler for Ep 6:

If you look at Erika's "execute" tip after finishing 6, it mentions something called the Rokkenjima Explosion accident.

[Pika_power]

Ah well. I'm off for another six months then.

[UsagiTenpura]

Something of a theory born from talking with Chronotrig.
There's apparently already a theory that everything in Umineko is basically a giant logic error that Beatrice is trying to get out of. Battler in arc 6 (according to genius Battler reading) put himself on a logic error from which he couldn't get out by himsef, and needed Beatrice to get him out of. Battler made that arc to show Beatrice he understood her tale sorta. I think it could be more or less the equivalent (inverted) of what happened in other arcs. Beatrice was stuck in a logic error and waited for Battler to release her from it.

Now the part of this which is my theory is what her logic error is. I think most likely that she spoke the epitaph in red. At the very least the 10 twilights and the rewards. That would sorta explain the epitaph murder vs solving epitaph condition. The probable point of this is that she has to somehow reach an ending where no one really died so they can all revive, but so far it always failed. In order to succeed the probably hardest point to connect is that "Beatrice revives", meaning that everyone believes in Beatrice. Because Battler adamantly refused to she made making him believe her primary condition. If he ends up believing then an arc where no one really dies could be possible. Of course these are all meta-motives for meta-Beato and meta-Battler, and not gameboard goals.

So I guess her "victory conditions" would be a long list of things.
- By being solved, by fake twilights or by real twilights, the 10 twilights must occur.
- Beatrice must "revive" (everyone has to believe in her, or if people die everyone left alive at the end)
- The four rewards must be reached.
Now since the Epitaph is itself something that can be interpreted in various figurative, metaphorical or literal ways, there is no "clear" way to solve it, as long as you make the reading of the epitaph something true.

[Renall]

This thread is spoilers generally, so yes, anything ep7 related will be here or in the yet-to-be-created ep7 thread. Once that hits, I recommend using the ep6 thread.

[chronotrig]

For those who can't read Japanese, I strongly recommend waiting at least a month before spoiling yourselves. I can make no guarantees, but I think we can have at least a partial translation patch finished within the first month after the game's release, unless some part of EP7 turns out to be a real pain to translate.

Now that we're finally getting some answers, it'll probably be much more enjoyable to learn them the way Ryukishi meant for them to be learned. Just hearing one-sentence summaries of the reveals can hardly do the series justice. You have to let Ryuukishi lead you to them if you really want to experience the game the way it was meant to be. We've all stuck with this series for a really long time; it isn't worth weakening the impact of the climax by hearing all the answers beforehand.

[Ronove]

Just wondering; will anybody be doing summaries of EP7 :'D? That would be awesome if someone would and take their time to do so! Thank you :3

[Renall]

Well, we can't prevent that, nor could we prevent people who know the language from reading and discussing, so again, now would definitely be the time to clear out. It'll probably take Japanese fans a while, but you can also expect fake spoilers, mock-up screenshots, and other craziness to spill forth for a while.

So again, if you want to keep discussing 1-6, now might be a good time to bow out.

[serverwolf]

omg so its tomorow? im so existed!
but i wont read anyspoiler until the full patch is out (EP7 is too importent for spoilers!) so i probebly won't be here for the time...

btw,UsagiTenpura.
once an error logic is created, the game stop. while it is true that battler didn't know about the logic error rule, however brenkastel did know about it, and as the witch who beting on battler win, i really can't imagine her pass it quitly.

another thing, when battler done creating the story genji said that beatrice was 'close' to create a logic error (wich BtW is a hint wich say something like that :"once you figure out a way that is posible in reality, it is the truth" becuse beatrice trick is to create a 'puzzel' with many posible answer and when the humen side answer with one answer, she switch the answers. <from there her name come probebly. "endless witch" for an endless posible answers>

also becuse logic error is a state where the humen side can never win against (nless of course he know about logic error), and beatrice promised that the game will be fair...

in other words, beatrice is not 'allowed' to create a logic error...

[LaplaceNoMa]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

I'm re-reading Jessica & Kanon deaths scene of episode 2 right now.
You know what's strange? I didn't even notice that before. If we forget about our knowledge from eps 3+, it's strange that neither Rosa nor Battler nor anybody else thought of something like 'The culprit killed those 2, hid Kanon's corpse, and closed the door with Kanon's master key'. Yeah, they found this key in Jessica's pocket later, but before that, they actually were saying that 'it's impossible for the 19th person, the guest, Beatrice, to do that, because she doesn't have a master key, and it's possible for Kanon because he does have it'. What's with that reasoning? I don't even know what to think about that, is it Ryukishi's flaw?

Remember me posting that? I've just reached the Nanjo&Kumasawa murder scene, and it's getting even more ridiculous.

Spoiler for pictures:

Come on. What the hell? Yet again they are totally forgetting about the obvious facts. Why can't they use the same reasoning to Kumasawa's master key, which is, unlike Nanjo's, should be obvious even to 'outsiders'?

[ameskitty]

Originally Posted by Ronove

Just wondering; will anybody be doing summaries of EP7 :'D? That would be awesome if someone would and take their time to do so! Thank you :3

Actually, I was kind of thinking about doing some vague digest/impressions posts on my as-yet-unused LJ after each day of reading, since that would technically be a more appropriate place to do them than here (plus I can more easily avoid spoilers from faster readers ). They probably won't be horribly detailed, and I'll be a bit busy this time around so I'm not sure how long it'll take me to finish, but I'll see what I can do. I'll put a link in my sig if I get to writing them .

EDIT: Not encouraging anybody to spoil themselves, though, or that that's the reason I'll be writing those posts : P.

[chronotrig]

Originally Posted by LaplaceNoMa

Remember me posting that? I've just reached the Nanjo&Kumasawa murder scene, and it's getting even more ridiculous.

Spoiler for pictures:

Come on. What the hell? Yet again they are totally forgetting about the obvious facts. Why can't they use the same reasoning to Kumasawa's master key, which is, unlike Nanjo's, should be obvious even to 'outsiders'?

Well, it hardly matters, since in both cases, the whole line of reasoning is proved to be useless shortly after anyways. Remember that this is Battler's first game, and he isn't really that good at it yet. He's still incompetent here. Rosa suggests that it was Nanjo's key that the culprit used, so Battler forms an idea around that theory.