Guilty Crown - General Discussion

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

It should also be noted that there are many people who support Marvel comics over DC comics for one large reason.

And there are many people who support DC comics over Marvel comics. I myself liked both about equally when I was collecting/following comics as a kid/teenager and into my early 20s.

The DC comic heroes tend to be one dimensional.

That's your opinion, one rooted in a particular worldview that some people don't share.

This is why I have far less problem with the Nanoha anime shows than you do, because I don't have a problem with a lead protagonist who is driven largely/purely by an altruistic desire to help others, whereas (IIRC, you can certainly correct me if I'm wrong) you find that difficult to accept/swallow. Where you and some others may find that "one-dimensional" or "unrealistic", I and some others may find it to make for an admirable main protagonist worth cheering on and emotionally investing in.

Regardless, a comparison of Guilty Crown to comic books doesn't do anything.

It does plenty.

One of the two main reasons I made that comparison is to simply demonstrate that Guilty Crown does not have identity issues. Its identity is determined by its American comic book-esque sensibilities. Just because you and some others may not like that identity doesn't mean that Guilty Crown doesn't have one, or that it has an identity crisis.

The other main reason I made that comparison is to counter this idea that it's somehow invalid for a semi-serious/realistic setting to have unrealistic and/or highly implausible elements within it. Well, you have an entire entertainment genre/medium largely based on exactly this sort of overall setup.


Nobody has to like it, of course, just like nobody has to like American comic books. But it's certainly not a totally unacceptable way to present a story. If it was, Marvel and DC comics would not have become as popular as they did.

You know who this show is being aimed at? Arguably the target audience seems to be as wide the Euclidean plane. They seem to have about as many catch all devices places put in here to pique the interest of just about everyone.

There's some truth to this, but on the other hand, the show wasn't hiding its fantastical elements. So it's making that an up-front barrier of entry. It's basically saying "If you can't swallow "magical sci-fi" (for lack of a better term, perhaps) then this show just isn't for you."

One of my main contentions with this show is the setting and the way they use it. Serious one moment, absurd the next. Tonal issues abound.

So far, all I see is three tones - Serious, Comedic, and Rule of Cool. Gurren Lagann had all three. Code Geass had all three. Mai HiME had all three. Tiger and Bunny had all three. Plenty of anime shows had all three. And superhero comics often have all three.

These tones aren't mutually exclusive, in my view. So I myself don't see tonal issues here.

I respect that you do, but it's a personal taste issue, and nothing more, imo.

I say it's pretending because it has certain elements and the execution is so off that those elements become rather laughable.

Well, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Admittedly, being a huge fan of Marvel/DC comics as a kid perhaps makes this easier for me to swallow than it is for other people.

Secondly, it is not a preconceived notion.

It is, insofar as you think it's a totally unacceptable approach to storytelling, and not simply a matter of your personal taste meaning you don't like it.

You present a setting that is grounded in the real world, and also do it with many serious political and social issues around. You have a main character that's taking everything very seriously.

Comic books often do this too. X-Men is loaded with social commentary on issues like racism and discrimination. Charles Xavier and his X-Men take things very seriously. One of the more famous X-Men villains is a fictional US Senator. This doesn't mean, though, that X-Men comics always abides by the laws of physics, or doesn't have characters doing or getting away with stupid stuff from time-to-time.

I personally feel the setting and the elements at play deserve a more mature handling than what we've been given thus far.

Fair enough.

The fact that you're even stating something like this (Which is a straw man) indicates you been missing I and other's points in this thread.

It's not a "strawman". It's simply expressing my own personal taste.

I am not missing your points at all. I simply disagree with them. I simply don't share your taste and issues with Guilty Crown's tone.

And I sincerely hope that you don't intend to complain about this, at length and in detail, each and every week because... We get it already. We get why you don't like it.

But it's not an issue for all of us, as felix recognizes. Where you see tonal issues, many of us see great entertainment and love all/most of the tones that are on display.

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I do see your point here. I can understand people missing the original elements because they are subtle, whereas less original elements are much more "loud" and obvious. Those original elements are part of the charm of this show for me, though, and is why I'm not entirely comfortable with viewing it as not serious at all.

I love the discussions on this anime. Every side has their own arguments and they're pretty valid. Nevertheless, please DO NOT say that there is anything original in this anime unless you state what they actually are. You have no idea how much stuff I developed a dislike for because people kept on claiming they were original (The Matrix, District 9, 500 Days of Summer, and 5 cm Per Second for example), but they weren't. And so far, I see nothing original about Guilty Crown. The characters aren't original (and I still don't find them interesting). The plot isn't original. that King's power is only mildly original at best. Not even the way the story is told is original. Recycling a bunch of ideas and combining them in a different way is NOT original. It's just recycling.

This is part of the reason why I raised the American comic book analogy. You can get serious stories with serious themes and topics in Spiderman and X-Men comics, but you're not going to get complete fidelity to the laws of physics.

You're also going to get a higher-than-usual degree of ham, of course.

Problem is that the show isn't hammy enough. I do like the idea of the show being like those American comic book adaptations though. As long as the show doesn't become as dull and boring as The Green Lantern or Hulk, that is. I'd prefer this show go into Batman territory myself, but I'll settle for Spider-man if the show gets that good.

I also like his independence. His indecisiveness also feels raw and real to me, rather than simply wimpy.

Personally, he feels like a character who only does something because the plot says so. No independence within that kid whatsoever. I've already said why I don't like him or Inori (or any of the others), so I won't bother boring you with my rant again. Let's just say I really hope the next episode adds some more depth to the characters.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Flawnalyst

I love the discussions on this anime. Every side has their own arguments and they're pretty valid. Nevertheless, please DO NOT say that there is anything original in this anime unless you state what they actually are.

Well, "original elements" may not be the best term, strictly speaking.

But what I think miketyson is referring to there, and what I meant myself, is how this anime is somewhat topical.

In recent years, over the past decade, we've seen the US - Either unilaterally or through the UN/NATO - Go into various "problem spots" around the world (Afghanistan, Iraq, etc...) and take a certain degree of control in these nations.

What Guilty Crown is doing is asking "What if Japan was a nation like that? What if Japan received something akin to the Iraq treatment, due to a mysterious "disease outbreak"?"

Of course, after WWII, Japan was a nation like that, and US soldiers are stationed there to this day. But I don't think this anime is necessarily just focusing on that specific fact alone. If you follow geopolitics much, you probably notice that there's a new wave of globalism of sorts sweeping the world, and perhaps Japan finds that threatening (I'm not taking sides on whether or not they should, by the way)

C: The Money and Soul of Possibility Control explored this issue at the financial markets level, even incorporating the International Monetary Fund into its anime.

Now Guilty Crown is exploring this from a more military-industrial complex angle, with GHQ.

Other anime shows may have done this before, and I'm simply not aware of that. But from what I've seen, it's somewhat original to me, and I do think it's a nice topic for an anime to explore through its narrative and characters.

You have no idea how much stuff I developed a dislike for because people kept on claiming they were original (The Matrix, District 9, 500 Days of Summer, and 5 cm Per Second for example), but they weren't.

One important thing to realize is that not everybody absorbs the same amount of media. The Matrix was original to me, when I saw it, because I hadn't seen anything like it before. Now, later on I would learn that there were anime shows that came before it that dealt with the same sort of ideas and issues, at least to a degree.

Personally, he feels like a character who only does something because the plot says so. No independence within that kid whatsoever. I mean, I get the idea behind his character, but his attitude just reminds me of one of those bad role models you see in chick flicks. Or Suzuka.

Well, he doesn't easily pick sides or join teams, even when he has atrocities thrown into his face (as he saw in Episode 2).

I personally like that, and it comes across as "Independence" to me.

I like how he seriously considered what Segai said to him, even if it is a total load of BS.

[djmaca]

LOLZ I drop by to visit my old haunt and found all this hate for GC? Why all the hate?

Unoriginal...

Ok, which anime had been original past 2010?

"I say it's pretending because it has certain elements and the execution is so off that those elements become rather laughable."

Citation Needed. Which elements doesn't fit?

because the plot says so....

Since plot dictates any fictional work's events right?

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Well, at least the preview image has Tsugumi. You all should know what I'm looking for.

I demand purple long haired dancing wannabe catgirls!

Originally Posted by Flower

I assume it is ok if they are skilled computer hackers too, yes?

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

Yes.

Also, good ass shots.

Originally Posted by blakstealth

Of course it's okay. The cat ears even flop around! :3

Originally Posted by Archon_Wing

That was arguably one of the best parts of episode 4

Shhhhh! Quiet. If SaintessHeart hears about a catgirl voiced by Ayana Taketatsu, he's gonna come over here and claim her as his "waifu".

[.:Jason:.]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Shhhhh! Quiet. If SaintessHeart hears about a catgirl voiced by Ayana Taketatsu, he's gonna come over here and claim her as his "waifu".

Too bad all the GC girls are my waifus. Except Inori and that glasses girl from episode three, you can have them.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by MrTerrorist

Shhhhh! Quiet. If SaintessHeart hears about a catgirl voiced by Ayana Taketatsu, he's gonna come over here and claim her as his "waifu".

Right, right. I'm just gonna grab a steel chair and lay low then.

[karuroso]

The beginning of this week ep surprised me , I thought the Undertakers would kill that Yahiro bastard on the spot after he betrayed Shu... and then they show he did that because of his brother, but i really really really don't care, and I'm surprised with myself for thinking like that, but in this case I hope to see he having a very horrible death -_-

[ZGMF-X10A]

Anyone know when the cd for OP or ED going to be release?

[MrTerrorist]

Originally Posted by ZGMF-X10A

Anyone know when the cd for OP or ED going to be release?

[Flawfinder]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Everything said about why you think the show is new.

Just for the record, when I say "original", I mean either "really original" or "doing it in a different way". If the show does things in a different way, then I'd consider it original. I don't quite get the geopolitics and stuff, but I guess if everything you said is true, I would call that original. The problem is, the show doesn't exactly focus on that. Instead, it mostly focuses on boring protagonists and a battle between two opposite groups, and we've seen that to death.

To me at least, the show has to have the original thing be the main focus in order to be original. If it's just a side thing or a plot point, then it's not original.

One important thing to realize is that not everybody absorbs the same amount of media. The Matrix was original to me, when I saw it, because I hadn't seen anything like it before. Now, later on I would learn that there were anime shows that came before it that dealt with the same sort of ideas and issues, at least to a degree.

To be fair, that wasn't the only problem I had with the movies I mentioned. I didn't like the Matrix or 5 cm Per Second because the characters were boring, I didn't like District 9 because too much of the movie was about a man turning into an alien while they shoved all the interesting stuff about the aliens on the Internet, and I didn't like 500 Days of Summer because it only had a few jokes that worked.

Well, he doesn't easily pick sides or join teams, even when he has atrocities thrown into his face (as he saw in Episode 2).

I personally like that, and it comes across as "Independence" to me.

I like how he seriously considered what Segai said to him, even if it is a total load of BS.

Like I said, I do like the idea. It's just that Shu's personality is so barely there that I can't get into it. And the scene only mildly gave him depth, but it wasn't enough for me to care about him. Oh, and seriously, the moral dilemma thing kind of fails when the guy trying to convince you looks like a cross between Igor and the Joker. Gai's side on the other hand is composed of young good-looking people. I'm not saying that being ugly means you're evil, but there isn't one single good-looking guy or girl on the "bad guy's" side that behaves reasonably. It's sort of like the problem I have with Star Wars. Why would you want to go to the Dark Side? Your face becomes all wrinkly and ugly when you do that.

Edit: Oh, and for the record, don't think I can't see what people see in the show. I can. The art's amazing, the fighting is cool, the music is nice (although I personally think the opening and ending are ear-poison), and the characters and plot can easily be interpreted differently. It's just that I can't get past the fact that the characters are flat stereotypes and the story has about a billion plotholes.

[miketyson]

Yeah, sorry Triple_R but it's not so much the geopolitics that interest me much (and tbh I don't find the politics of guilty crown that original, I mean even Akira has a post-disaster / "occupied Japan" angle to it...). I still think your comic book analysis is spot-on, this feels more like the recent spiderman movies than anything else.

Flawnalyst: I guess I'm a supporter but I feel more like just a defender-from-haters. I see the show as having laid a lot of groundwork to do something interesting, even if a lot of the groundwork is subtle. Erh, at least, it's subtle compared to the flashy stuff, and easy to miss b/c of the flashy stuff.

It really seems like there's a very different story being told in hints here and subtext there. Right now that impression might just be a mirage, but if that "submerged" story winds up surfacing I think the show will turn out ok in the end. At present it almost comes across as if the creative team was afraid to tell the story they had in mind and decided to "generify it up" to play it safe, but somehow managed to bungle some of the details on the generic stuff.

[winhlp32]

Episode 4: I feel like nitpicking today.

- Clown guy is still hilarious this week. He pushes pretty much every little cliche villain button. I still enjoy him though, though kind of disappointed he isn't as bombastic as he looks. I expect my clown villain to have a breadth of colorful vocabulary but he doesn't deliver. He can't even solve a crossword puzzle without asking Shu first. Oh well. I also realise if you replace the 'r' with a 'l', you'd get "Guilty Clown". Then I would've had a better idea what the title of this show means.

- You'd think as the protector of the "law", the GHQ would notify Shu's parents if he gets arrested, since he's underaged and all. You know how shady these guys are when parents don't get notified. Which makes one wonder, do the GHQ enforce other laws aside from terrorism and those who don't trust the vaccine? What about taggers? Do they execute taggers on the spot?

- Shu's prison suit looks like something that'd come out of the pope's wardrobe.

- I'm probably the only person in this forum who dislikes Gai. I like flawed people. Gai is too perfect. He is a great fighter. He is somewhat charismatic(to the people in this show). He can pull off different suits. He looks even better in glasses and with a little facial hair. His hair is very malleable. Too perfect. No, I wouldn't rather have him as a protagonist.

- Yahiro broke the sacred "Bros before Otoutos" law. Needless to say I'm not very fond of him either. The whole brother thing was too sudden and felt artificial.

- Why do I have a feeling the whole Inori going against Gai's orders thing is actually planned out by Gai himself. He might've known that the GHQ guys might try to brainwash Shu. Gai should also know that Shu seems to have a soft spot for Inori.

- I'm not going to question Inori's gravity-defying leaps. I'm just wondering why she didn't use them when escaping with the void genome back in the first episode.

- Kido Kenji was struggling and squirming in his chair from the start to the finish. Like he's innocent or something. I would expect crazy mass-murderers to be more composed.

- Ayase...I'm ready to hear the reason you're so devoted to Gai. What did Gai do to you? He saved you didn't he? He gave you "purpose" didn't he? He fed you grapes didn't he? I sure hope you can prove to me in the next few episodes that you are more than just a yes-man for Gai in this series.

- Tsugumi is officially my favorite character now...at least until the inevitable backstory comes and I.G. uses her character to prove a point about child soldiers. But right now she hasn't done anything I dislike. I like Haru Menjou as well. When she heard about Shu's arrest she immediately started crying.

- Animation was really good this episode. The ShuxInori against the big robots scene, as cliched as it was, was great. I think I know what's wrong with Sawano's music for me - too "mastered", and therefore too artificial. Maybe it'll sound better when they release it onto a CD...

- Despite all the nitpicking, I still enjoyed the episode.

- In the ED Shu showed us he can moonwalk. I like him better than Gaii already.

[Kaoru Chujo]

I don't know if I'm a supporter, a defender, or what. I do know that I've enjoyed every episode so far, watched each of them several times, and look forward eagerly to each new ep. Despite being less than enthusiastic about the writing.

I think it's the feel, the rhythms, the look and sound and moment to moment evolution that are hooking me. The direction, in other words. And the battles -- something I normally don't relate to that much. And the voices. And, truth to tell, Inori. I can relate to magical weak strength. Possible or not, that swan dive was amazing.

Spoiler for images:

I have updated my characters/seiyuus page (link below) to include Segai and his seiyuu.

[kk2extreme]

my interpretation of the last scene

Gai: If you don't join us, you don't get to keep Inori.
Shu: ...*thinking
Gai: and I will make her mine
Shu: Okay, I will join

[SoFarGone]

I think Gai will eventually die and Shu ends up the leader of the group somehow.

[tsunade666]

^ So Gai's role is like Kamina if he ended up dying. But he still needs first to give reason to Shu if he will ended up dying. Unlike Simon who has a set goals with Kamina. Shu is in dire situation on what to believe. He can't even believe Gai and he also question Inori if it's alright to believe on her. He is confuse that he will probably cling to the first one he think is right. That's why he still had that transmitter.

Though he might ended up using it and Gai died in the process of rescuing the members lol

I like the dress of Ayase in the pv.

[totoum]

Originally Posted by tsunade666

Though he might ended up using it and Gai died in the process of rescuing the members lol

I was thinking something along those lines as well,would be fun to kill off Inori instead of Gai,but I doubt that'll happen

Really though,there's many places they can still go with this show so that's just one of many options.

[SoFarGone]

Originally Posted by totoum

I was thinking something along those lines as well,would be fun to kill off Inori instead of Gai,but I doubt that'll happen

Really though,there's many places they can still go with this show so that's just one of many options.

If you kill off Inori who would sing? Thats the best part of the show imo.

[MrTerrorist]

Guilty Crown now has it's own wikia.

http://guiltycrown.wikia.com/wiki/Guilty_Crown_Wiki