Madoka Magica - Spoilers & Speculation

[Slick_rick]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Is it? The power is real. The competence (in Timeline 1) is real. Madoka died a glorious death saving her city in Timeline 1. She was a self-realized, competent, and powerful hero in Timeline 1. And that's precisely why Homura was so inspired by her, and came to care so deeply about her.

It "real" but that doesn't make anymore a false sense in the end. They thought themselves doing good for mankind but in the end they were doing good for QB and his ends. They will be more witches and more people will die as long as MG's exist. They themselves are a threat to mankind. Her "glorious" death inspired only Homura to throw away her own life and continue the cycle of evil. Hopefully somewhere along the line the cycle can be broken though.

Was it wrong for her to save people from witches? Was it wrong of her to defeat Walpurgis Night?

Nothing's wrong with on the surface but it changed absolutely nothing in the big scheme of things. She won't be there when the next city is in trouble or when more witches are created to help combat entropy by QB.

She was completely unaware of what was going on because there's no good reason for her to suspect it. Again, I don't see how anybody can fault these girls for not suspecting the grimdark reality of the nature of the Puella Magi of this anime.

I don't fault them for it actually but a more mature adult for example Madoka's mother would have realized that deals that are too good to be true are often things you'd have to look deep into before getting involved in. I think this is one of the mistakes she have to make before she truly grows up but no though becoming a MG.

You know, of all the timelines we've seen so far, Timeline 1 was definitely the happiest overall.

Mami and Madoka go out as heroes saving the city. Sayaka is seemingly spared. Walpurgis Night is defeated. No Witch Madoka happens.

There's a question here that I don't think has been answered yet... Did Homura make a good wish? On the whole, will her wish make things better, or make things worse? I don't want to be too hard on Homura, but her track record so far leaves something to be desired.

It's hard to say but Homura wish at least give the opportunity for them to find a way to truly stop QB while in timeline 1 QB would just have started over again somewhere else and a similar scenario would likely take place.

I don't hate MG's shows. I actually I love them from Sailor moon to Cardcaptor Sakura but my all time favorite would be Revolutionary girl Utena. I like shows that think outside the box and I enjoy each show for what it is. I don't really find my routing for the MG system in this show because it isn't, imo, meant to be a good thing.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

It "real" but that doesn't make anymore a false sense in the end. They thought themselves doing good for mankind but in the end they were doing good for QB and his ends. They will be more witches and more people will die as long as MG's exist. They themselves are a threat to mankind. Her "glorious" death inspired only Homura to throw away her own life and continue the cycle of evil. Hopefully somewhere along the line the cycle can be broken though.

One could make the argument that in timeline 1, Madoka and Mami died happy, doing what they loved, for a cause they believed in. I'm sure a lot of us want to die happy. And even if Homura somehow prevents Madoka from contracting, Kyubes form the world over will still go on doing what they are doing. And even if the Kyube's left, there would still be witches killing people and spawning more witches.

In short, from one point of view, timeline 1 was the best, and trying to do more might not be wise. Like you have a 19 in Blackjack, and you decide to hit another card. Sure, you could get 21, but you have such a good hand already and the odds you can get higher is incredibly unlikely.

You can hope all you like that the cycle will be broken somehow. But without a plan, it's wishful thinking. Considering conventional firearms and explosions work, the obvious solution would be for Homura to get the military involved. She can prove the existence of magic since she can stop time. She can then lead them to witches. Once the military knows what it is up against, the entire world can work against the threat and spread word of how bad it is to contract with Kyube.

And thus Madoka won't have to contract, since the military is involved.

However, my guess is that Gen will never address this.

[Dawnstorm]

So many great posts. So much to think about. I'll be trying to address a few points, but forgive me if I don't get to everything. You've seen what I make of a single little point... One general thing: when I focus one thing, such as a critique of gender roles in my last post, it may seem that I think the point is of utmost importance; but that's purely methodological. I get confused if I try to hold too much in my mind all at once.

Now:

@protection: male vs. female:

Originally Posted by hyperborealis

Mahou Shoujo shows are already and from the first about the displacement of traditional models of gender and home, and not simply their affirmation.

I'm sort of aware of this, but don't know how to tackle it. You make very good points here. Even while I was typing up my post, I was thinking of the common anime end fight, where the (most likely male) protagonist gets beaten up badly until something happens that reminds him what he's actually fighting for (usually what he wants to "protect"), and then there's the comeback, stronger than before. A magical girl's realisation of the power of love is pretty much the same thing.

I'll have to think this through some more, really.

Another difference is that in mahou shoujo shows the home has ceased to be a haven, and has instead itself become a place of conflict. You will remember, for example, in Cardcaptor Sakura, that the first card Sakura captures is the Wood card, which invades her house with a swiftly-growing tree (please correct me if I have the details wrong.) Even in a conventional ms drama, the home is a battlefield.

Yes, since I think that the home serves as the prototype of that which you wish to protect, it makes sense to threaten it. Utopia's at stake. The valiant defenders to the rescue.

You're being too coy. Magic is sex. Sex, sublimated into socially useful forms, such as you cite.

Heh. That's certainly part of it. But that's also certainly not the extent of it. There are ms shows with very young girls. Do you know DoReMi? I can't remember how old they are. Kindergarten age? Early elementary school? They're fighting with the power of musical notes...

I don't agree though that these wishes are all feminized. Kyoko parallels herself with her father: just as he's saving souls in his church, she's saving them by fighting witches. Homura specifically demands the male role, to protect Madoka. Sayaka does play Florence Nightingale, but her goal is clearly to claim Kyosuke as a mate. Her wish is acquisitive. If you want to go full-scale Freudian, she restores his sexual potency, so that she can get ultimately what she really wants from him. We can probably argue about Sayaka, and I might concede in her case, but the others don't necessarily fit your claim.

That's a pretty compelling argument actually. I just tried to switch genders and see what changes. Nothing much, it turns out. Hm....

Mom, of course. The mahou shoujo world is the real world.

Context reminder: Who'd have made better magical girl: Madoka's mom or Madoka's teacher?

Interesting. I wouldn't hesitate to put my money on the teacher. Mom would constantly release her emotional energy into action; set backs are challenges. She might complain, but that's a sort of release, too. Teacher? Probably takes ages gathering courage. Then, when she's finally gathered enough she's too nervous and messes up, which discourages her further...

Who's more susceptible to a Kyubey-style wish? Who has more passion to pour into it?

I think the show posists an inverse-proportional relationship between what you're actually doing to achieve dreams and what you have left to pour into a wish. Or: the less you're taking care of yourself, the more you damn up emotions, ready for soul-gem harvest.

***

@What does it mean to Madoka that her mom is extraordaniray?

Originally Posted by Sol_Falling

Instead, what I think Dawnstorm is saying is that Madoka's mother's uncommonality is what makes Madoka feel inferior, and that it is what makes Madoka search for ways to justify a more standard/traditionally feminine support role she is suited for.

Yes, pretty much.

To the degree that Madoka's mother is not like normal humans, I think Madoka is discouraged by her. I think that Madoka desires to be like her mother to the extent that she, a 'normal' human, is capable.

This is where I get a bit confused. Backtracking a bit, I'm pretty much with Kaijo here: Madoka looks up to her mother, because she's her mother - the first female she gets to know. The proto-type. Only later, she learns, by her friend's reactions to her Mom, that her mom stands out. She knows that her mom is extraordaniry, but she can't really feel it inside. There's a conflict here: Madoka does want to be extraordinary, but she doesn't realise, deep in her heart, that mom-extraordinary isn't normal. But since she knows, intellectually, that her mom stands out, she must have a wall of rationalisation built around that knowledge that's not easy to penetrate. She feels that she's not entitled to stand out, because she's not like her mother. She doesn't see that normal people stand out in normal ways all the time: perfectly normal girls wear fancy ribbons. She doesn't get that by not daring to stand out she stands out through what can be interpreted either as timidity or as modesty.

It's the combination of Madoka's temperament and her mom's social role that makes her feel insecure. It's the conflict between what she knows to be true and what she feels to be true that seals off her insecurity into self-blame. So, yes, Madoka wants to be extraodrinary, but she thinks she wants to be ordinary. Being confronted with extraordinary power is an interesting situation for her. Hence the conversation with Kyubey about power. There's a lot of pent up power to be released into a soul gem.

For example: I'm pretty sure that Madoka doesn't want her mom's "killer instinct". But to think this through is painful and scary, as she might have to critise her mom, and then maybe society at large. And then she'd have to re-think her own status, and how she fits in... she needs to think this through, but doesn't want to. Not yet. The magical girl job is a nice distraction; a way not to think this through, by aquiring value otherwise. The basics are there: it's an alternative approach to value. But that doesn't change the aspects of her mom's character, or society for that matter.

[Decagon]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

I'm not sure you understand the scale here, nor really understand Entropy, so perhaps some background explanation is needed.

The sun up there in the sky is the source of all the energy on Earth. It only has a limited amount of fuel to burn, though, and once that is gone, the Sun will burn out. That's the source of all energy in our universe, and what entropy means. All those stars in the sky are sending energy out into the cold vacuum of space, and once they are done, they are done. No more energy.

Energy is not lost in entropy; it is converted in a way that parts of it will not recoverable. Stars are constantly dying and being created as well and will keep going like that for many epochs. The fuel for our nuclear reactors (along with a host of other heavy elements) came from dead of stars much in the same way that our oil and natural gas energy comes from dead organics.

Kyube's plan has to reverse entropy, otherwise there is no point to it. If they are only getting tiny amounts of energy from the girls, then there is no point to doing this at all. If turning all young girls on earth into Witches only releases enough enery to keep the universe going for another second... it's still an incredible amount of energy being released. And if that were the case, buying an extra second in the grand scheme of things means the plan is pointless. So it has to reverse entropy on a universal scale.

Their plan is not to reverse, but to find an energy source not affected by entropy. The plan is not to save the universe, but to have the girls be the ultimate renewable fuel source.

Any advanced race is going to have a high technology base and various ways to generate energy. At the very least, they'll have fusion. Mostly like antimatter, or power their ships with singularities (Romulan ships have this, and it's actually a fairly good power source). Even Dyson Sphere's. The latter would be more than enough energy to power most of a civilization, so it would be trivial to divert a small fraction of that to power my robot plan. Earth gets by on a small fraction of the energy from the Sun, for comparison sake.

Well, now we have aliens who can power their ships off of the emotions of teenage girls.

In short, capturing the amount of energy needed for this project, which is the continuation of the universe itself, would thus be of utmost importance and very easily doable. If you try to spin it as being low, then the project becomes not worthwhile. And even if it is low, then the Kyube plan comes off as even dumber than before; a minimal effort to add a few seconds before heat death. Doesn't make it look too important, does it?

There has been lots of talk about the timescale involved in the ep 9 thread. Many of those alien civilizations that exist in the Madomagi universe will probably die from other causes before heat death will be an issue, never mind that they aren't using the energy to save the universe but to not deplete its other resources quicker.

[Deconstructor]

The main argument for Madoka's extraordinary mother is her breaking of gender roles.

Yet as Madoka's mother herself states, women have to look pretty in the workplace. She puts on makeup and wears quite the attractive suit that... accentuates the desirable parts of her body. So while you can argue aspects of Madoka's mother are defiant of sexist stereotypes, she uses those same stereotypes to advance her socio-economic position.

Madoka's father also breaks the accepted gender norm by being a stay-at-home dad, yet everyone has turned a blind eye to him because he cooks and cleans - little to merit any overwhelming praise. What does this say? It is far more extraordinary for a wife to take command of the family than a husband to submit himself as the housewife. But if you choose to argue Madoka's mother is an extraordinary woman, then you should do the same for Madoka's father.

[Solace]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Like you have a 19 in Blackjack, and you decide to hit another card. Sure, you could get 21, but you have such a good hand already and the odds you can get higher is incredibly unlikely.

Timeline 2 was Homura pulling out a card that took her over 21, when she discovered that saving Madoka wasn't as simple as defeating Walpurgis. In fact, she saw just how deep the rabbit hole went.

It's sort of like when you're a kid, and you dream of being an adult, because of all the awesome things adults can do that a kid cannot. Then, you get to be an adult, and reality hits you hard. Being an adult sucks! We make the best of it, but secretly many of us wish we were children again....and many of us realize that it wasn't always that great being a kid either. We despair in different ways and in different lengths as we lament the loss of innocence and the realities of an often cruel world....even if we find some good in all of it. In the end, we carry a lot of regrets, broken dreams, and many memories.

Homura's wish opened a door to hell for her. What started as a "simple" task of saving Madoka turned into an endless loop of death and despair. If she does manage to save just Madoka, her wish is fulfilled, but she has so much more on her shoulders and her conscience now that she knows the truth of everything. She stared into the abyss, and it stared back. Even if she saves Madoka, it will be bittersweet. It isn't the same Madoka she became friends with, and she herself is no longer that innocent twin tailed glasses girl anymore. There's a certain tragic irony in a time traveler who can't fix the past.

[k//eternal]

So it's just like all the other wishes, eh?

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Solace

Even if she saves Madoka, it will be bittersweet. It isn't the same Madoka she became friends with, and she herself is no longer that innocent twin tailed glasses girl anymore. There's a certain tragic irony in a time traveler who can't fix the past.

The permanent emotional scars will always remain. However, I maintain the possibility that Madoka and Homura can recover from this series of unfortunate events. While Mami and friends will remain dead, I believe Madoka and Homura can return to their original lives and personalities. Like your signature, "There is no fate but what we make."

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Energy is not lost in entropy; it is converted in a way that parts of it will not recoverable. Stars are constantly dying and being created as well and will keep going like that for many epochs. The fuel for our nuclear reactors (along with a host of other heavy elements) came from dead of stars much in the same way that our oil and natural gas energy comes from dead organics.

For all intents and purposes, it is lost. For instance, our own sun only has enough fuel to burn for 7 billion years or so. After that, it's dead, and it ain't comin back.

Their plan is not to reverse, but to find an energy source not affected by entropy. The plan is not to save the universe, but to have the girls be the ultimate renewable fuel source.

Well, now we have aliens who can power their ships off of the emotions of teenage girls.

There has been lots of talk about the timescale involved in the ep 9 thread. Many of those alien civilizations that exist in the Madomagi universe will probably die from other causes before heat death will be an issue, never mind that they aren't using the energy to save the universe but to not deplete its other resources quicker.

To be quite honest, I don't believe Gen has thought that far. My guess is that he just heard about how the universe could die a heat death, and thought it would be a neat idea to add. "Perfect! This will be the Kyube's grand scheme; staving off the heat death of the universe!"

So, in some respects, you're right; If we humans don't kill ourselves before 7 billion years are up, and we don't find a way to ascend to higher planes of existences or create our own universes, then we pretty much deserve to die off. Consider that we have advanced so far and so fast in merely a couple thousand years, and you'll realize that in 7 billion, we should be gods... or dead.

But sci fi writers don't consider this. They don't realize exactly how far apart, development-wise, alien species will be from each other. That's one of the reasons for the "Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale" trope I linked to earlier. And to be truthful, it is fun to imagine a bunch of alien races in similar tech levels on the grand scheme of things.

But since Gen has brought this up, we have to run with it. And in this universe, apparently those alien races figure they will be still kicking when Heat death comes around, and they'd rather continue existing. Thus, we get this lame method. My problem really isn't so much in the method, as it is in the weak explanation Gen has provided. The very fact that you and I can think up so many other better reasons for things, shows that he didn't think this through very well.

Originally Posted by Solace

Timeline 2 was Homura pulling out a card that took her over 21, when she discovered that saving Madoka wasn't as simple as defeating Walpurgis. In fact, she saw just how deep the rabbit hole went.

It's sort of like when you're a kid, and you dream of being an adult, because of all the awesome things adults can do that a kid cannot. Then, you get to be an adult, and reality hits you hard. Being an adult sucks! We make the best of it, but secretly many of us wish we were children again....and many of us realize that it wasn't always that great being a kid either. We despair in different ways and in different lengths as we lament the loss of innocence and the realities of an often cruel world....even if we find some good in all of it. In the end, we carry a lot of regrets, broken dreams, and many memories.

Homura's wish opened a door to hell for her. What started as a "simple" task of saving Madoka turned into an endless loop of death and despair. If she does manage to save just Madoka, her wish is fulfilled, but she has so much more on her shoulders and her conscience now that she knows the truth of everything. She stared into the abyss, and it stared back. Even if she saves Madoka, it will be bittersweet. It isn't the same Madoka she became friends with, and she herself is no longer that innocent twin tailed glasses girl anymore. There's a certain tragic irony in a time traveler who can't fix the past.

I don't see it that badly. Homura, who was in so much despair in timeline 1, was fine again in timeline 2. Her only problem is her thinking she has to do this all alone, and that she has to kill her emotions for some reason. In that way, she's much like Sayaka. Other than that, Gen hasn't addressed it well. If and when she fixes things, she'll slowly go back to normal. Or perhaps she realizes that she never can go back to being normal, but she'd settle for Madoka staying normal.

The poster above commented about your sig, and that's interesting, because the Terminator series has it's own set of problems relating to time travel, that makes things stupid, heh (why not send several terminators back, especially one with huge bombs planned to detonate when they got close enough to the Conners? Why not send several back right at the moment Sarah destroyed the first one?).

It's rare that I've found a writer that can intelligently write a story involving time travel. And that is coming from someone who is currently writing a fanfic that deals with time travel. I'm well aware if I don't handle this right, people will tear it to pieces (and I'm at the point where full reveals of how and why everything happened and will happen, will take place).

But Homura's actions (or lack of them), is a whole 'nother issue, heh.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Dawnstorm

This is where I get a bit confused. Backtracking a bit, I'm pretty much with Kaijo here: Madoka looks up to her mother, because she's her mother - the first female she gets to know. The proto-type. Only later, she learns, by her friend's reactions to her Mom, that her mom stands out. She knows that her mom is extraordaniry, but she can't really feel it inside. There's a conflict here: Madoka does want to be extraordinary, but she doesn't realise, deep in her heart, that mom-extraordinary isn't normal. But since she knows, intellectually, that her mom stands out, she must have a wall of rationalisation built around that knowledge that's not easy to penetrate. She feels that she's not entitled to stand out, because she's not like her mother. She doesn't see that normal people stand out in normal ways all the time: perfectly normal girls wear fancy ribbons. She doesn't get that by not daring to stand out she stands out through what can be interpreted either as timidity or as modesty.

It's the combination of Madoka's temperament and her mom's social role that makes her feel insecure. It's the conflict between what she knows to be true and what she feels to be true that seals off her insecurity into self-blame. So, yes, Madoka wants to be extraodrinary, but she thinks she wants to be ordinary. Being confronted with extraordinary power is an interesting situation for her. Hence the conversation with Kyubey about power. There's a lot of pent up power to be released into a soul gem.

For example: I'm pretty sure that Madoka doesn't want her mom's "killer instinct". But to think this through is painful and scary, as she might have to critise her mom, and then maybe society at large. And then she'd have to re-think her own status, and how she fits in... she needs to think this through, but doesn't want to. Not yet. The magical girl job is a nice distraction; a way not to think this through, by aquiring value otherwise. The basics are there: it's an alternative approach to value. But that doesn't change the aspects of her mom's character, or society for that matter.

lol, man, this show is complicated. I was going to mention how I'm not really convinced that Madoka's mother can be taken as the keystone or proto-type which defines Madoka's notions of success or extraordinarity, and bring up Mami as an alternative role model to counter it, but...thinking on it, I can't actually come up with anything yet which might make for a notable contrast between Madoka's mother and Mami. The killer-instinct is all right there.

(Hell, thinking of it this way, Mami might as well have been Madoka's wished-for 'cool husband'.)

So that right there is a dead-end for me. But, I dunno.

I note that the key distinction between my own and Triple_R's interpretations is that I feel that the 'extraordinarity' Madoka's mother and Mami embody is simply something which is necessary for success (or maybe even survival) in regular society. As far as your perspective too; Deconstructor brings up a good point here (lol, man am I tapping away at this post pretty slowly) in that insofar as Madoka's mother is extraordinary, then Madoka's father is 'extraordinary' too. To be so proficient a 'supporter' that one can find a mate who can/will financially carry you completely is also an unusual achievement in this society. Madoka does ask "I wonder if I'll ever make anybody happy." The extraordinary achievement of her father, may be beyond Madoka too.

In which case, my main point to the effect that Madoka desires to self-realize, to find some talent of her own which will give her own life some direction and value, really is normative. You need that to survive in this society (on at least some level); the possibility of attaining a completely supportive role like her father's, is equally difficult and extraordinary. While it may be true that Madoka dislikes the 'killer-instinct' competitive aspect of self-realization she sees in her mother, I don't think she is looking away from it; because it is in precisely her current uncompetitive environment that the source of Madoka's anxiety arises. If Madoka had not at least looked enough at the world's competitive nature to recognize her mother's 'killing-instinct's' necessity, she could not have become 'resigned' to a troubling future where she could not attain it.

I feel that, if it is Madoka's temperament and her mother's role in society which give root to Madoka's insecurities, then that is because they are reflective of truths that hold across all of society in general. As you suggest, Madoka's hesitation to embrace some form of 'killer-instinct', as an extension of self-realization, may be reflective of her feelings on the state of society. However, that insecurities exist at all which act as a force pushing Madoka forward, I think they are a reflection of Madoka's desire to be normal. Because, after all, to be 'normal' as I am using it, means to (like Madoka's mother) be able to stand on your own and survive.

[Solace]

@Kaijo

Hehe, I'm in an odd mood today. I'm generally more optimistic. So agreed on time travel stories though, I just happen to find the quote appealing and thought it fit Homura's struggles pretty well.

As a fan of Isaac Asimov, I remember seeing a good short story of his linked on the Puella Madoka wiki:

Last Question

Perhaps you'll like it, if you haven't already read it.

[Sol Falling]

Kaijo: I see that we can still agree on some things , for example that timeline 1 was not an unacceptable outcome; and yet that we will disagree on others. I still do not especially like the approach of reading the story assuming incompetence on the part of the author.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

You can hope all you like that the cycle will be broken somehow. But without a plan, it's wishful thinking. Considering conventional firearms and explosions work, the obvious solution would be for Homura to get the military involved. She can prove the existence of magic since she can stop time. She can then lead them to witches. Once the military knows what it is up against, the entire world can work against the threat and spread word of how bad it is to contract with Kyube.

And thus Madoka won't have to contract, since the military is involved.

However, my guess is that Gen will never address this.

As far as using the military/conventional weaponry/regular humans to combat witches goes, there is the issue that witches only exist in magical barriers, and may likely (similarly to how Kyuubey is) be completely undetectable to ordinary humans. While the argument and possibility remains that it may be possible to use the army to combat Walpurgisnacht, as for the problem of regular witches, this has never been a possibility.

Originally Posted by Kaijo

To be quite honest, I don't believe Gen has thought that far. My guess is that he just heard about how the universe could die a heat death, and thought it would be a neat idea to add. "Perfect! This will be the Kyube's grand scheme; staving off the heat death of the universe!"

So, in some respects, you're right; If we humans don't kill ourselves before 7 billion years are up, and we don't find a way to ascend to higher planes of existences or create our own universes, then we pretty much deserve to die off. Consider that we have advanced so far and so fast in merely a couple thousand years, and you'll realize that in 7 billion, we should be gods... or dead.

But sci fi writers don't consider this. They don't realize exactly how far apart, development-wise, alien species will be from each other. That's one of the reasons for the "Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale" trope I linked to earlier. And to be truthful, it is fun to imagine a bunch of alien races in similar tech levels on the grand scheme of things.

But since Gen has brought this up, we have to run with it. And in this universe, apparently those alien races figure they will be still kicking when Heat death comes around, and they'd rather continue existing. Thus, we get this lame method. My problem really isn't so much in the method, as it is in the weak explanation Gen has provided. The very fact that you and I can think up so many other better reasons for things, shows that he didn't think this through very well.

On the other hand, I feel that the explanation Decagon suggested (using the energy gathered from magical girls for localized purposes, perhaps for creating suns or powering starships) is the only logical possibility. How does one introduce useful energy universally across a system? 'Counter' entropy? Those ideas do not, to me, really make sense or even seem possible (outside of, of course, a theoretical complete and universal reversal of time). I have already posited in the episode 10 thread that Kyuubey is really acting only for his own race's best interests--the only sector of the universe Kyuubey needs to be 'active', really, is the one his own particular race inhabits. Have a couple suns or so going for themselves, and have another one going for the human 'fuel/cattle'. In such a scenario, so long as the humans produce enough emotional energy, Kyuubey's race can keep on going indefinitely.

Kyuubey's race's problem might be 'universal' entropy, sure, but who do they need to solve it for? Themselves, right? They never actually claimed otherwise. They might make the occasional insincere rationalization that their act also benefits other civilizations, but it seems to me that it is obvious the only motive and goal they can sensibly be held to is the continuation of their own existence.

[Deconstructor]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

To be so proficient a 'supporter' that one can find a mate who can/will financially carry you completely is also an unusual achievement in this society. Madoka does ask "I wonder if I'll ever make anybody happy." The extraordinary achievement of her father, may be beyond Madoka too.

But is Madoka's father really "extraordinary"? Both of Madoka's parents have uncommon personalities for their gender, but that is different from saying they are extraordinary people.

The word "extraordinary" raises images of Martin Luther King, Gandhi, Mother Teresa, President Obama, () and other famous people. To be uncommon, one need only be different. To be extraordinary... one needs to be established.

Proponents of Junko's exemplary worth are falling into a trap. Junko is far bolder than her husband; she is a free spirit who willingly speaks her opinion. As the viewers learn, Madoka's mother has great ambitions for herself and her family. She wants to rise to the top of the corporate ladder, and is willing to do anything to attain that position. Even using her own physical attractiveness as leverage...

Yet, Madoka's father transcends the gender norms just as much as his wife. The reason why few viewers consider him "extraordinary" is because he says very little in the entire anime. Unfortunately, that is part of his uniqueness - a quiet father who takes the role of a housewife. To make him into as bold a character as Junko would remove him from being "extraordinary."

Therefore, I argue an extraordinary person can also be an unseen one. Madoka is the most extraordinary in that she has the potential to become the most powerful Puella Magi on Earth. And yet, Madoka is timid, shy, quiet, and taciturn. Because of this, the anime focuses on other extraordinary girls - those who have chosen to take a stand against witches. Does Madoka's introverted personality make her any less extraordinary, in comparison to her friends? By the definition of "extraordinary" suggested, yes. Girls are stereotypically shy; therefore, Madoka must be something else to be "extraordinary."

A person can fit into their gender, racial, or ethnic role and still be extraordinary. Mother Teresa became such by fulfilling her role as a nun to extreme lengths. Instead of transcending the stereotype, Mother Teresa embodied it fully.

Likewise, Madoka can be your average, timid schoolgirl and still save the world from herself. Madoka can do extraordinary deeds, without needing an extraordinary personality.

I consider Madoka's parents to be quite ordinary. They have uncommon personalities, but are normal people living normal lives.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Kaijo: I see that we can still agree on some things , for example that timeline 1 was not an unacceptable outcome; and yet that we will disagree on others. I still do not especially like the approach of reading the story assuming incompetence on the part of the author.

No one's perfect. The only real question that matters to me, is whether my belief is being asked to be stretched over my threshold. The more Madoka has gone on, the more my belief is being asked to be stretched too far; whether because of the girl's intelligence (or lack thereof), or the reasoning given for why things are the way they are.

As far as using the military/conventional weaponry/regular humans to combat witches goes, there is the issue that witches only exist in magical barriers, and may likely (similarly to how Kyuubey is) be completely undetectable to ordinary humans. While the argument and possibility remains that it may be possible to use the army to combat Walpurgisnacht, as for the problem of regular witches, this has never been a possibility.

Are all humans ordinary? The explanation we go from Kyube is that they use girls because their emotions are the strongest; the implication is that men and women of all ages can become magical. When Madoka and Sayaka were "normal" they were able to enter barriers. The logical deduction then, is that while some humans might not, quite a few would be able to.

At the least, it's a potential option that is deserving of some followup. Remember, Homura's goal is to prevent Madoka from contracting; getting the military involved, when she knows from personal experience that conventional weapons work, should have been a natural thought. She only doesn't, because she somehow made the huge Grand Canyon leap that she needed to do this alone for some reason.

On the other hand, I feel that the explanation Decagon suggested (using the energy gathered from magical girls for localized purposes, perhaps for creating suns or powering starships) is the only logical possibility. How does one introduce useful energy universally across a system? 'Counter' entropy? Those ideas do not, to me, really make sense or even seem possible (outside of, of course, a theoretical complete and universal reversal of time). I have already posited in the episode 10 thread that Kyuubey is really acting only for his own race's best interests--the only sector of the universe Kyuubey needs to be 'active', really, is the one his own particular race inhabits. Have a couple suns or so going for themselves, and have another one going for the human 'fuel/cattle'. In such a scenario, so long as the humans produce enough emotional energy, Kyuubey's race can keep on going indefinitely.

Then you'd vastly underestimate the energy requirements. Stars will burn and radiate their energy at the same rate, and several stars worth of energy contained by Dyson spheres is plenty. Not to mention, it's a fairly constant and consistant source.

In power generation, there is something called "base load." That is, there has to be a consistent amount of power generated, and that is currently filled by things like hydroelectric, coal, and nuclear. They steadily pump out energy that can be depended upon. Solar and Wind can't fill base load, because the wind is not always blowing, and the sun is not always shining. Solar and Wind, thus, can't support base load generation.

Magical girls are much like Solar and Wind. The energy generation is haphazard at best, with most girls dying long before they become a witch. In pure logical terms, it's idiocy to depend on them, when you have plenty of stars to pick from that radiate energy steadily.

And they have a lot of energy, too. Our sun, as I mentioned, has enough fuel to burn for 7 billion years, and just a fraction of the energy released by the sun, is enough to power our entire planet. Technically speaking, just covering a small part of the Sahara Dessert with solar panels, would provide all the electricity we need (the problem is transmitting that electricity over distances).

When you really look at power issues, you'll realize how much that Kyube's plan has to be what they say it is: countering entropy. That energy is being added into the system. There is more than enough energy out there to collect to power many civilizations, such that collecting it haphazardly from girls makes no rational sense. Countering Entropy, thus, becomes the only remaining explanation.

That part of Gen's explanation makes sense; they are adding more energy to a closed system, and doing so would prolong it. Even if we agree with your premise, the main issue I have is that the Kyube method is poorly thought out and executed. Kidnapping girls and putting them in conflict with no magical recharges, would ensure a higher output, for whatever reason they might want it.

Heh, talking with Triple R, I came up with a better method for the Madoka story, in which he dubbed the "Rayearth Method." Read on for a different way to handle the series.

Spoiler for Rayearth method:

Kidnap girls in their sleep and give them magic. When they wake up, they are in a strange fantasy world wherethey must fight to survive, finding monsters roaming the land and villages fighting for their own survival. Make it a really cliche fantasy world like Rayearth was. Say all 5 of our magical girls eventually meet up and/or get separated at times in their own journeys.

Homura begins to suspect something is wrong, while Sayaka is going full bore, using her magic to protect people. Kyoko is mainly looking for a way home, not wanting to help others. Mami, Sayaka and Madoka get along fairly well as the main trio, though.

Near the end, Madoka discovers the horrifying truth, and the major plot twist(probably when Sayaka becomes a witch): they have been set up to fail. They have been led through conflict after conflict, until they use up their magic and become a witch. The entire fantasy world was constructed to make girls expend their magic in fights, the monsters controlled behind the scenes to ensure they didn't die, but lived long enough to use all their magic. Some girls still may end up dying along the way, but with the ability to control the "monsters" the Kyubes can ensure more girls actually survive until they fulfill their purpose.

Have a witch disposal squad so the amount of actual witches is kept rather low and don't really endanger the girls playing out the fantasy.

Just a thought. I understand what Gen is trying to do: show a more gritty magical girl outlook. The problem is that his justifications and explanations are rather flimsy, and thus don't support the premise well. Perhaps some can look past them and enjoy it. But I think I've seen entirely too much anime, such that I have become numb to genres and cliches, and want my stories to be more tightly written. Thus, I am more critical by nature, and I find Gen's endeavor to be lacking.

Probably I am also more critical, because Madoka was hyped so much more, heh. Something like Infinite Stratos or Dragon Crisis! I give more of a pass to, because they don't pretend to be more than what they are.

The last couple of episodes could change my opinion and make all my thoughts here irrelevant. It's possible; I just don't think it likely at this time.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

No one's perfect. The only real question that matters to me, is whether my belief is being asked to be stretched over my threshold. The more Madoka has gone on, the more my belief is being asked to be stretched too far; whether because of the girl's intelligence (or lack thereof), or the reasoning given for why things are the way they are.

I suppose you are not particularly alone in the sentiment that Kyuubey's motivations with regards to entropy are unbelievable, but as fiction is an artificial construction by definition in the first place, I tend to place greater emphasis on the thematic elements of a story rather than pure believability. As long as the work retains an internal consistency, then I am willing to focus more on the core intention of a story. This might simply reflect I suppose different priorities when it comes to approaching a narrative. However, with regards to a number of your specific arguments...

Are all humans ordinary? The explanation we go from Kyube is that they use girls because their emotions are the strongest; the implication is that men and women of all ages can become magical. When Madoka and Sayaka were "normal" they were able to enter barriers. The logical deduction then, is that while some humans might not, quite a few would be able to.

At the least, it's a potential option that is deserving of some followup. Remember, Homura's goal is to prevent Madoka from contracting; getting the military involved, when she knows from personal experience that conventional weapons work, should have been a natural thought. She only doesn't, because she somehow made the huge Grand Canyon leap that she needed to do this alone for some reason.

While the speculation you've introduced is not disprovable here, I do not feel that it overrides the default assumption that witches are not accessible to just anybody. Madoka and Sayaka were only able to see/enter barriers after their initial encounter with Kyuubey; before that encounter, they had no knowledge or experience that witches or magic exists. We have no direct conclusion available as to what unlocks a girl's ability to see witches and barriers, but there is reason to suspect that it is at least on some level connected to Kyuubey.

Homura's 'go it alone' strategy applies/applied explicitly to Magical Girl comrades. It emerged immediately following the third timeline, where cooperation broke down (with Sayaka turning witch and Mami snapping) while in Timeline 5 Homura clearly diverted some effort towards getting Kyouko to work with her. As to involving non-magical girl parties such as the military, there is again no compelling reason to break from the default assumption that access to witches is limited.

(Not to mention, really, that Homura's real obstacle is not any of the witches but rather WalpurgisNacht. As for that, we still don't know enough about it. I myself consider it sensible to call in military aid if WalpurgisNacht can, in fact, exist and be damaged outside of a barrier. At the moment that is pure speculation though.)

Then you'd vastly underestimate the energy requirements. Stars will burn and radiate their energy at the same rate, and several stars worth of energy contained by Dyson spheres is plenty. Not to mention, it's a fairly constant and consistant source.

In power generation, there is something called "base load." That is, there has to be a consistent amount of power generated, and that is currently filled by things like hydroelectric, coal, and nuclear. They steadily pump out energy that can be depended upon. Solar and Wind can't fill base load, because the wind is not always blowing, and the sun is not always shining. Solar and Wind, thus, can't support base load generation.

Magical girls are much like Solar and Wind. The energy generation is haphazard at best, with most girls dying long before they become a witch. In pure logical terms, it's idiocy to depend on them, when you have plenty of stars to pick from that radiate energy steadily.

And they have a lot of energy, too. Our sun, as I mentioned, has enough fuel to burn for 7 billion years, and just a fraction of the energy released by the sun, is enough to power our entire planet. Technically speaking, just covering a small part of the Sahara Dessert with solar panels, would provide all the electricity we need (the problem is transmitting that electricity over distances).

When you really look at power issues, you'll realize how much that Kyube's plan has to be what they say it is: countering entropy. That energy is being added into the system. There is more than enough energy out there to collect to power many civilizations, such that collecting it haphazardly from girls makes no rational sense. Countering Entropy, thus, becomes the only remaining explanation.

That part of Gen's explanation makes sense; they are adding more energy to a closed system, and doing so would prolong it. Even if we agree with your premise, the main issue I have is that the Kyube method is poorly thought out and executed. Kidnapping girls and putting them in conflict with no magical recharges, would ensure a higher output, for whatever reason they might want it.

I am not sure why Magical Girl energy production being constant is necessary? If we are talking the entropic heat death of the universe, then how many Dyson Spheres collecting energy on what timescale would be needed to give birth to a new star structure? Perhaps, for every 'quota', Kyuubey has gathered enough energy to create one new star? A single star alone, as you say, does provide more than enough energy to for a race such as ours or Kyuubey's to be sustained across several epochs.

As they say, mind over matter. I do not find it outrageous that if emotions were somehow directly convertible to energy, enough energy could be harvested across an entire planet over a reasonable time period to produce a single star (Against the vast and myriad different possibilities of what a girl could wish for, to give birth to a single new star in the sky does seem potentially trivial comparatively). This might well be a more efficient operation than the construction of numerous Dyson Spheres across the universe. (Not forgetting, of course as you mention, that the latter method does not even ultimately address the problem.)

Furthermore, I maintain the hypothesis that Kyuubey's actual collection mechanism for energy lies in the Grief Seeds. That the Grief Seeds store up negative energy, and that Kyuubey consumes them, seems pointless otherwise. If so, then Kyuubey's actual energy source, the Grief Seeds, are self-replicating. Beyond that, Kyuubey still does need the Puella Magi to do the actual Grief Seed collecting for him. This would be reason enough for maintaining and not going beyond the system which exists currently.

Heh, talking with Triple R, I came up with a better method for the Madoka story, in which he dubbed the "Rayearth Method." Read on for a different way to handle the series.

Spoiler for Rayearth method:

Kidnap girls in their sleep and give them magic. When they wake up, they are in a strange fantasy world wherethey must fight to survive, finding monsters roaming the land and villages fighting for their own survival. Make it a really cliche fantasy world like Rayearth was. Say all 5 of our magical girls eventually meet up and/or get separated at times in their own journeys.

Homura begins to suspect something is wrong, while Sayaka is going full bore, using her magic to protect people. Kyoko is mainly looking for a way home, not wanting to help others. Mami, Sayaka and Madoka get along fairly well as the main trio, though.

Near the end, Madoka discovers the horrifying truth, and the major plot twist(probably when Sayaka becomes a witch): they have been set up to fail. They have been led through conflict after conflict, until they use up their magic and become a witch. The entire fantasy world was constructed to make girls expend their magic in fights, the monsters controlled behind the scenes to ensure they didn't die, but lived long enough to use all their magic. Some girls still may end up dying along the way, but with the ability to control the "monsters" the Kyubes can ensure more girls actually survive until they fulfill their purpose.

Have a witch disposal squad so the amount of actual witches is kept rather low and don't really endanger the girls playing out the fantasy.

Just a thought. I understand what Gen is trying to do: show a more gritty magical girl outlook. The problem is that his justifications and explanations are rather flimsy, and thus don't support the premise well. Perhaps some can look past them and enjoy it. But I think I've seen entirely too much anime, such that I have become numb to genres and cliches, and want my stories to be more tightly written. Thus, I am more critical by nature, and I find Gen's endeavor to be lacking.

And again, the issue of thematic intention rises up to the forefront for me as a first priority. Madoka Magica seems to me to be trying for much more than a 'gritty magical girl' story; from my perspective, it comes off very clearly as a mirror against reality. The modern, contemporary setting does a lot for me in establishing that relatability. Fundamentally, the believability of a story does not mean much to me if I cannot find first that something interesting is being said by it. In its current form, I find that Madoka Magica is doing that brilliantly.

Probably I am also more critical, because Madoka was hyped so much more, heh. Something like Infinite Stratos or Dragon Crisis! I give more of a pass to, because they don't pretend to be more than what they are.

The last couple of episodes could change my opinion and make all my thoughts here irrelevant. It's possible; I just don't think it likely at this time.

Well, to be hyped I don't think necessarily means to pretend to be more than you are. I will admit, Urobochi Gen's name meant nothing to me in terms of what drew me to this production and I have made it a conscious effort to keep my perspective remaining so, so that might put me in a rarer position of approaching the writing of this story completely neutrally. However, from that position I am not seeing any pretension in how this show or its proponents have been presenting its quality (given Urobochi's early tweets and trolling, perhaps the argument could even be made that they had been presenting it as less). Madoka Magica is no end all be all, certainly, but I nevertheless do not think it can be called a weak piece of writing either.

[Dawnstorm]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Furthermore, I maintain the hypothesis that Kyuubey's actual collection mechanism for energy lies in the Grief Seeds. That the Grief Seeds store up negative energy, and that Kyuubey consumes them, seems pointless otherwise.

I thought so, too, until ep10. At the end, with Madoka becoming a witch, it seems that Kyubey has fulfilled a quota and was ready to leave, predicting that Madoka would go on to destroy the Earth. He'd be gone before he could ever collect her grief seed, but it seems he already has her energy. Rather, I think it's the soul-gem explosion that releases the energy in the first place.

What he's doing with grief seeds, I don't know. A witch farm, perhaps? Fuse a few of those and create a Walpurgis? *Shrug*

[Dark Wing]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Just a thought. I understand what Gen is trying to do: show a more gritty magical girl outlook. The problem is that his justifications and explanations are rather flimsy, and thus don't support the premise well. Perhaps some can look past them and enjoy it. But I think I've seen entirely too much anime, such that I have become numb to genres and cliches, and want my stories to be more tightly written. Thus, I am more critical by nature, and I find Gen's endeavor to be lacking.

I'm afraid I have to agree . While I do like the whole gritty aspect of this series I'm still having doubts about the reasons given for the girls to have to fight. A much better justification (for me personally) would've been say Grief Seeds = Food Source for Kyuuby.

Probably I am also more critical, because Madoka was hyped so much more, heh. Something like Infinite Stratos or Dragon Crisis! I give more of a pass to, because they don't pretend to be more than what they are.

The last couple of episodes could change my opinion and make all my thoughts here irrelevant. It's possible; I just don't think it likely at this time.

I highly doubt the last episodes will change your opinion with you being such a hard critic and all. Well even if the series doesn't live up to the expectations of many you have to admit it tried something few shows would dare. As a fellow Nanoha fan myself I do secretly wish that series would at least dabble in the dark and gritty from time to time. I'd dare say a perfect series (for me) would be one with Nanoha's setting combined with Madoka's harsh cynicism.

Off Topic: By the way it's great to have you back Kaijo I was getting a little worried you'd been the perma-ban or something. After all I do enjoy our little idealism vs cynicism debates.

[Snork]

A much better justification (for me personally) would've been say Grief Seeds = Food Source for Kyuuby.

That would be an even older cliche, TBH. The one with a villain who genuinely believes he is a saviour is comparatively younger.

As a fellow Nanoha fan myself I do secretly wish that series would at least dabble in the dark and gritty from time to time.

The overall atmosphere in Nanoha has never been too gritty, but it doesn't mean the themes haven't either. State treasons, parental abandonment, dual morality, cloning blues and other dubious experiments, questions of power and responsibility - the franchise already offers more than your usual magical girl package. But Nanoha goes a different path than Madoka - it reimagines the genre by merging it with sci-fi trends and pathos of the so-called cosmic operas and military fantasy tropes. Madoka does it by uncrowning some of the firmest and most frequent ideas magical girl shows are based on. Such an approach bears a lot of contrasts, and since the contrsted standard happens to be full of fluff, all the grim elements in Madoka's plot and setting naturally look about ten times grimmer.

I thought so, too, until ep10. At the end, with Madoka becoming a witch, it seems that Kyubey has fulfilled a quota and was ready to leave, predicting that Madoka would go on to destroy the Earth. He'd be gone before he could ever collect her grief seed, but it seems he already has her energy. Rather, I think it's the soul-gem explosion that releases the energy in the first place.

What he's doing with grief seeds, I don't know. A witch farm, perhaps? Fuse a few of those and create a Walpurgis? *Shrug*

Referring to TL4, maybe he expected Homura to get the grief seed for him? XDDD Ah, no; she obviously couldn't handle Walpurgis Night, let alone Gretchen. So I really don't think he harvests energy from grief seeds directly. The seed merging theory is also a bit hard to imagine so far, but it might be possible he just keeps grief seeds from rehatching and raising casualty rate among Puellae Magi. Or... he might even use them for gambits. To recall, we still don't know how Charlotte's grief seed got to the hospital in ep 3. It was not a Puella Magi converted from a sick girl or whatever, then going witch - we witnessed the birth of Octavia and she certainly didn't go into any cocoon stage. SO if it wans't an evolving familiar, then could Kyuubey have had anything to do with it?

Not that I'm suspecting him of the intentions to kill Mami (it would be extremely weird by his logic), but the other day, recalling the details of Sayaka's contracting, I remembered that Kamijou was in that same hospital. That's probably why Sayaka chose to stay near and enter the barrier bravely - she was apparently worried and wanted to do anything to help destroy the witch ASAP (remember Mami's words that witches can outright drain the life of patients). The witch WAS destroyed, but in the interim... Before that we see Kamijou depressed, but somehow holding it within. The VERY NEXT DAY the levee breaks. Writer-induced coincidence? Or the aftereffect of Charlotte's influence? You make the call.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

While the speculation you've introduced is not disprovable here, I do not feel that it overrides the default assumption that witches are not accessible to just anybody. Madoka and Sayaka were only able to see/enter barriers after their initial encounter with Kyuubey; before that encounter, they had no knowledge or experience that witches or magic exists. We have no direct conclusion available as to what unlocks a girl's ability to see witches and barriers, but there is reason to suspect that it is at least on some level connected to Kyuubey.

Personally, I think Kyube can choose who gets to see him. Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic, as the saying goes. And by extension, then, any sufficiently advanced science can deal with magical witches. Madoka's world does seem to be a bit higher in the tech level, too.

I am not sure why Magical Girl energy production being constant is necessary?

It's only necessary if one subscribes to the idea that the Kyube's are actively using that energy to power their devices, rather than releasing it into the system; say, to create new stars or something.

Think about it this way: You go into a casino that you know the house has a 70% advantage against you; that is, they'll win 70% of the time. Do you think it wise for you to use that casino as your sole source of income? Your wins would be haphazard at best. It's highly likely, with a 30% success rate, that there would be stretches of time where no magical energy was collected. But I as I said, if they are just releasing this new energy into the system to counter the general concept of entropy, then this haphazard nature isn't as important (however, it is still inefficient).

Furthermore, I maintain the hypothesis that Kyuubey's actual collection mechanism for energy lies in the Grief Seeds. That the Grief Seeds store up negative energy, and that Kyuubey consumes them, seems pointless otherwise. If so, then Kyuubey's actual energy source, the Grief Seeds, are self-replicating. Beyond that, Kyuubey still does need the Puella Magi to do the actual Grief Seed collecting for him. This would be reason enough for maintaining and not going beyond the system which exists currently.

As someone else pointed out, I don't think so, given that he wasn't after witch-Madoka's seed. It was very clearly explained that the energy they seek, is what is released when a magical girl becomes a witch. As for the seeds themselves, my own personal hypothesis is that the Incubator is incubating them, merging them, to create the Walpurgis witch. Since Magical Girls can generally easily deal with witches and collect seeds on a regular enough basis to sustain them, the Kyubes might see a need to create a super-strong witch every now and again to force the MG's magic expenditure into higher levels, thus raising the chance of witch creation.

My gut tells me that will be the reason, although it would still be a bit stupid (considering girls could still die rather than become witches).

And again, the issue of thematic intention rises up to the forefront for me as a first priority. Madoka Magica seems to me to be trying for much more than a 'gritty magical girl' story; from my perspective, it comes off very clearly as a mirror against reality. The modern, contemporary setting does a lot for me in establishing that relatability. Fundamentally, the believability of a story does not mean much to me if I cannot find first that something interesting is being said by it. In its current form, I find that Madoka Magica is doing that brilliantly.

I'll admit that a lot of it is personal taste. Someone can watch Transformers II: Revenge of the Fallen, and not mind the little holes such as Bey completely forgetting about Israel, or how tanks could roll across the dessert so quickly. And I admit, I can partially ignore the faults and enjoy the robot rockem-sockem action on a base level, even though I agree it's a bad film. And some can enjoy The Last Airbender live action film, although I can't.

Well, to be hyped I don't think necessarily means to pretend to be more than you are.

What I mean is, having people talking about it like it is the new great thing. I'm already hesitant of new fads, but the first few episodes made me curious that this would be something new and different, and thus a refreshing change of base. However, because of that, I can tend to be more critical of it. Comedies can live with conveniences and plot holes, because the main point is humor. Serious stories, however, need believable reasons and consistency, otherwise it strains credibility.

There is one last option: a parable. Stories told for a specific purpose to explain an important lesson. I suppose I could end up less critical of Madoka, if at the end, we got this message:

"While magical creatures who come bearing magical gifts might seem appealing and exciting, please remember to exercise caution and proper management when forming contracts to fight scary creatures for them. It is important to gather all necessary information and read the fine print before jumping in, so as to assure a healthy magical girl life.

This message brought to you by the Japanese department of Magical Girl and Magical creature management."

Originally Posted by Dark Wing

I highly doubt the last episodes will change your opinion with you being such a hard critic and all. Well even if the series doesn't live up to the expectations of many you have to admit it tried something few shows would dare. As a fellow Nanoha fan myself I do secretly wish that series would at least dabble in the dark and gritty from time to time. I'd dare say a perfect series (for me) would be one with Nanoha's setting combined with Madoka's harsh cynicism.

Oh, I will admit that it tried to do something different, and has been gritty. I do give it points for that. If nothing else, I hope this will make future magical shows abandon the genre cliches much more readily, and give us more realistic magical girl shows. To be honest, I think it is time the genre grew up. Nanoha showed us what could be done, and Madoka tried to go even further. I expect stumbles, though, before someone gets a good story and gets it right, ie, not only consistency, but good writing, too.

Off Topic: By the way it's great to have you back Kaijo I was getting a little worried you'd been the perma-ban or something. After all I do enjoy our little idealism vs cynicism debates.

Heh, thanks. I know a lot of people who shared the same sentiments. It's apparently a fairly tiny minority that had issues, although I admit I can be a bit harsh at times; I am a bit more used to debating on Slashdot, where people generally have thicker skins. It can be tough to change modes.

[Shadow5YA]

I really don't think Gen is trying to take a jab at the mahou shoujo genre. It just so happens that his style is generally darker than the typical mahou shoujo series.

I'd like to think that the magical world serves as a perversion of Peter Pan's Neverland, where the main story is the girls' coming of age into the adult world.