[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni - Ep. 4 Alliance of the golden witch

[Teapot]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

We're going to be getting 2-3 new demons now~
Ziminiar, Amaymon, and/or Corson

Oh god I hope you're joking

[Squirrellord]

Kinzo - Goldsmith
Kumasawa - Virgilia
Genji - Ronove
Krauss- Pride
Eva - Wrath
Rosa - Lust
Rudolf - Sloth
Natsuhi - Greed (?)
Hideyoshi - Gluttony (?)
Kyrie - Envy
Gohda - Goat
Sayo - Shannon (I think her name's Sayo)
??? - Kanon
Battler - Zuminair/Amaymon/Corson?
George - ^^^
Maria - MARIA
Jessica - Gaap
Nanjo - Spawn

[Marion]

I think it goes like this:

Krauss - Sloth
Natsuhi - Pride
Eva - Greed
Hideyoshi - Gluttony
Rudolf - Lust
Kyrie - Envy
Rosa - Wrath

Then again, Rosa tends to lean towards both Wrath and Lust in a way :U On the other hand, Rudolf is the known philanderer.

And yes, Shannon's real name is Sayo.

[Sterling01]

Battler wouldn't have a demon counterpart

[Squirrellord]

Originally Posted by Sterling01

Battler wouldn't have a demon counterpart

if Maria or someone is imagining these counterparts, then why not?

[Endomae]

First of all...Hello, I suposse.

Ok, I´m a bit of a dumbass, so go easy on me if what I´m about to say is stupid, has been already denied by the red or is highly obvious.

Also, english is not my native languaje, so I may make some ridicule gramatical mistakes. Well, reading this post now seems like an oddisey, doesn´t it?

Spoiler for Ep2: Why Kanon could have killed Nanjo, Kumasawa an so on:

Ok, I´m a bit of a dumbass, so go easy on me if what I´m about to say is stupid, has been already denied by the red or is highly obvious.

Also, english is not my native languaje, so I may make some ridicule gramatical mistakes. Well, reading this post now seems like an oddisey, doesn´t it?

Ok, I´m just going to try to explain why Kanon COULD have been our dear EP2 killer. I´m not going to try to explain how.

While replaying the EP2, I noticed something that Beatrice says:

Kanon was killed in Jessica´s room!

Ok, where´s the problem on that?Kanon was killed in Jessica´s room, yeah, so how could he have killed Nanjo and the rest?

Then I found a litle flag on that quote.

She doesn´t say when.

Yeah, she says it right after they find Jessica´s corpse, but does that mean anything when talking about a different dimension or whatever it is?

So, maybe we are wrong about something.

What if, actually, Shannon and George were killed on the 2nd twilight?

We´ve never get to see the corpse of Jessica after Rosa and company first find it, so, can we be sure that it has any new "damage"?And we´ve never get to see Kanon´s corpse. Also, Nanjo and Kumasawa, who were killed before Shannon, George and Gohda, were on the 7th and 8th twilight...Which means that the order doesn´t really matter.

But this is just some formal guiss-guessing. I´m 100% anti-fantasy, so I don´t really believe that all the murders should follow 100% what the epitath says...

If someone has already posted this "theory"...Well, then just ignore me.

[Marion]

@Endomae: Shannon and George aren't the 2nd twilight - both are alive with the others when they find Jessica's body. Unless what you mean is this:

Jessica wasn't really dead and Kanon left.
There was no 2nd twilight until later with Shannon and George.

But then again, that would contradict the game record.

And as far as Nanjo and Kumasawa, both are technically anti-mystery killings because of the presence of KANON (red eyed Kanon). Nanjo and Kumasawa could have easily been drugged and later killed by Genji - or just not die at all until later.

[Endomae]

Originally Posted by Marion

@Endomae: Shannon and George aren't the 2nd twilight - both are alive with the others when they find Jessica's body. Unless what you mean is this:

Jessica wasn't really dead and Kanon left.
There was no 2nd twilight until later with Shannon and George.

But then again, that would contradict the game record.

And as far as Nanjo and Kumasawa, both are technically anti-mystery killings because of the presence of KANON (red eyed Kanon). Nanjo and Kumasawa could have easily been drugged and later killed by Genji - or just not die at all until later.

Well, I probably didn´t explain quite well. I´ll try to say it more clearly:

Spoiler for Still, why is a title necesary?:

I´m unsure about the game record.

We have all seen that it has some weird, sadiscit humor sometimes. As much as I love that, it makes me think that it´s "written" by someone, maybe by something like Metaworld´s Maria for the ocassional "Kihihihihi´s".

And, again, I´m anti-fantasy 100%. You could say that I´m like Battler, but without any regret about labelling one of the ¿17? as the culprit. And more stupid.

Also, the game record doesn´t show the "undeniable truth", that we can say. If it was the "undeniable truth", Kinzo would never have never been labelled as a "living beign". And nothing in the game record is in red. Assuming that "game record" is what I´m thinking about. If not, just ban me or something.

Ok, so much for that one.

Let´s see...

"Someone" killed Jessica. Then, that "someone" closed the door and blah, blah, blah. I won´t try to explain that point.

Still, Kanon survived.

Then, we go to the "modified scenes" theory. That thing has guided my entire journey on Umineko. After all, without that, we the anti-fantasy are just dead, aren´t we?

Ok, so what comes next?

For some reason, Kanon, acting as he was wounded, lured the servants and Nanjo to the servants' room. He killed then, who knows why, maybe with some enormous knife or something.

Gohda and Genji reduced him, but he was able to escape somewhat. He´s a small, quick and stealthy person, after all.

I´ll insist on one point: Nanjo and Kumasawa were killed before Gohda, Shannon and George. And yet, they were labelled as the 7th and 8th twilight.

This could mean that a crhonological, or whoever is it said, order is not needed. Maybe they are labelled as "sacrifices" right after they receive the "extra wounds". Or maybe it just doesn´t matter again.

That´s why I said that stupid George + Shannon second twilight thingie. But again, I´m not sure if the epitath should be always followed exactly.

Kanon was somewhat killed by someone afterwards. Maybe he is the author of all the crimes, maybe he only killed Nanjo and Kumasawa. That, I don´t know.

Twisted logic is the basis of Anti-fantasy, so...

[Squirrellord]

I like the idea Endomae, though I'm not too sure. I can't remember it well enough, but I'm pretty sure Beatrice said that Kannon was killed in the room right after it happened? If she said it then, then it defeats your idea, since she put it into past tense immediately. If she said it when Battler was talking about the red-eyed Kanon, then there's a definitive possibility.

[Endomae]

Originally Posted by Squirrellord

I like the idea Endomae, though I'm not too sure. I can't remember it well enough, but I'm pretty sure Beatrice said that Kannon was killed in the room right after it happened? If she said it then, then it defeats your idea, since she put it into past tense immediately. If she said it when Battler was talking about the red-eyed Kanon, then there's a definitive possibility.

Well, yeah, that´s the huge gap on my teory: Yes, she said it right after they found Jessica´s body.

Still...

Spoiler for Insert title here.:

Does past tense and all that matter when you´re in a different dimension?We´re talking about an endlesly repeating game. The concept of time is a bit messed up...

We can also easily label Genji as the culprit, but, should we think then that Gohda and Shannon are also accomplices?As Rosa said, you can only trust the dead. And they died, or that´s what we think.

[Christen]

Nobody tried to debunk my theory? I was looking forward to discussing it. Reposting it then. It has holes in it I believe, but I wanna know what they could be.

Spoiler for culprit theory:

The Kanon we know is not the real Kanon but perhaps a look alike/twin/wearing disguise. In this case, the culprit exists among the 17 or less, free to do whatever he needs to do.

1. Kanon is dead before the start of the game. Perhaps just been killed a short time ago.
2. This Kanon holds a close relationship with Shannon. Perhaps another servant from the Fukuin house. Shannon might have other "little brothers" other than the real Kanon.
3. Whenever Kanon's corpse shows up, it is the corpse of the real Kanon.

Now we deal with several red text addressing this theory.

- Kanon was killed in this room (Ep.2 - referring to Jessica's room)
It is not stated what time he was killed. He could have been killed before October 4.

- 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! (Ep. 3)
Again, no mention of time. Kanon has not been killed at the same time as the other 5 excluding Kinzo.

- Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.
Kyrie's group of what? It was never specifically mentioned who the member of this group were. We are led to believe that this group is the escaping people. Kyrie has a group of 5 people which has their own agenda in all games.

- In short, he was the 9th victim.
9th victim among what? Again we can think of other angles if Beato is tricking us with the red. Kanon was the 9th victim of a series of murders committed outside October 4 and 5, 1986 in Rokkenjima.

- In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
The culprit in the island might not necessarily be the one who killed Kanon. In this case, the one who killed the real Kanon is not in the island right now.

- They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon! (referring to Ep.2 in the kitchen)
The culprit brought Kanon's corpse. This way, they didn't mistake a different person for the real Kanon. This statement also only applies during the time in the kitchen.

- The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
This is in a different context with taking someone's name. The culprit might have disguised himself as Kanon, while not taking his name.

[Jan-Poo]

@Endomae:

In other words you are saying that while the red truth states that Kanon is dead it doesn't say when, so Kanon could have died after.

However you should consider something: from the anti-fantasy perspective the respect of the twilights is meaningless. I mean in ep3 the first twilight had really 5 persons and not 6, I could name many other irregularities. That basically mean that it is pointless to find the true twilight order, because a true twilight order doesn't exist, it's just a facade.

Whoever is creating this illusion of the ritual doesn't care about substance, as long as it is believed that the ritual is followed correctly it's ok for him, even if as a matter of fact it isn't.


@Christen: Your theory basically is based on the same concept of the Shannon=Kanon theory, minus the part that states that Shannon is Kanon. The main difference is that you think this fake Kanon is not Shannon but a different person "X".

The main obstacle to both theories is the last red truth you quoted:

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

Your explanation is difficult to accept because the "Kanon" Battler meets is definitely introduced to him as Kanon, and everyone calls him Kanon.

[Endomae]

Originally Posted by Christen

Nobody tried to debunk my theory? I was looking forward to discussing it. Reposting it then. It has holes in it I believe, but I wanna know what they could be.

Spoiler for culprit theory:

The Kanon we know is not the real Kanon but perhaps a look alike/twin/wearing disguise. In this case, the culprit exists among the 17 or less, free to do whatever he needs to do.

1. Kanon is dead before the start of the game. Perhaps just been killed a short time ago.
2. This Kanon holds a close relationship with Shannon. Perhaps another servant from the Fukuin house. Shannon might have other "little brothers" other than the real Kanon.
3. Whenever Kanon's corpse shows up, it is the corpse of the real Kanon.

Now we deal with several red text addressing this theory.

- Kanon was killed in this room (Ep.2 - referring to Jessica's room)
It is not stated what time he was killed. He could have been killed before October 4.

- 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! (Ep. 3)
Again, no mention of time. Kanon has not been killed at the same time as the other 5 excluding Kinzo.

- Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.
Kyrie's group of what? It was never specifically mentioned who the member of this group were. We are led to believe that this group is the escaping people. Kyrie has a group of 5 people which has their own agenda in all games.

- In short, he was the 9th victim.
9th victim among what? Again we can think of other angles if Beato is tricking us with the red. Kanon was the 9th victim of a series of murders committed outside October 4 and 5, 1986 in Rokkenjima.

- In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
The culprit in the island might not necessarily be the one who killed Kanon. In this case, the one who killed the real Kanon is not in the island right now.

- They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon! (referring to Ep.2 in the kitchen)
The culprit brought Kanon's corpse. This way, they didn't mistake a different person for the real Kanon. This statement also only applies during the time in the kitchen.

- The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
This is in a different context with taking someone's name. The culprit might have disguised himself as Kanon, while not taking his name.

Spoiler for I definitively have too much free time:

Hm, your theory can pretty much explain most of Kanon´s deaths...

I´ll center on his first game´s death. I believe that it´s stated that all of the persons on the island had alibis on that moment, that Kanon did not commit suicide, and that he didn´t die in an accident.

Maybe Evil Kanon previously left Kanon´s body on the boiler room. He just pulled it out, stuck a stake onto it, and then fleed away.

...That´s probably why Battler and the rest see someone fleeing from the crime scene.

Ugh, damnit. Instead of rebuking your theory, I believe that I´ve kinda helped you out, didn´t I?But I can´t find any real hole...Maybe because I'm sleepy or something...

I believe that most of the reds can be explained without X person claiming Kanon´s name. I just can´t rebuke that theory.

Wow, I am really that sleepy?The posters above and bellow are probably right...

[Squirrellord]

@Christen
You have the same basic theory as me, except I focus on Gohda instead. The only problem is, like Jan-Poo said, the red Beatrice used. And to make it even tougher, we can't say "Well, a different spelling of Kanon", since the same Kanji were used consecutively, and it's a rather bizarre combination.

[Endomae]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

@Endomae:

In other words you are saying that while the red truth states that Kanon is dead it doesn't say when, so Kanon could have died after.

However you should consider something: from the anti-fantasy perspective the respect of the twilights is meaningless. I mean in ep3 the first twilight had really 5 persons and not 6, I could name many other irregularities. That basically mean that it is pointless to find the true twilight order, because a true twilight order doesn't exist, it's just a facade.

Whoever is creating this illusion of the ritual doesn't care about substance, as long as it is believed that the ritual is followed correctly it's ok for him, even if as a matter of fact it isn't.

...?I believe that I have stated that I don´t care very much about all the twilights order and so. In fact, I totally agree with you.

[Christen]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

The main obstacle to both theories is the last red truth you quoted:

The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!

Your explanation is difficult to accept because the "Kanon" Battler meets is definitely introduced to him as Kanon, and everyone calls him Kanon.

Spoiler for the obstacle:

I agree pretty much that this is the most troubling obstacle for this theory. The only way I can get around it is another person is also named Kanon. This doesn't violate any red text.

Another posibility is in the wordplay. Kanon's name might be referring to Kanon's real name. This is pushing it, but I can't deny the possibility it is so.

Originally Posted by Endomae

Spoiler for I definitively have too much free time:

Hm, your theory can pretty much explain most of Kanon´s deaths...

I´ll center on his first game´s death. I believe that it´s stated that all of the persons on the island had alibis on that moment, that Kanon did not commit suicide, and that he didn´t die in an accident.

Maybe Evil Kanon previously left Kanon´s body on the boiler room. He just pulled it out, stuck a stake onto it, and then fleed away.

...That´s probably why Battler and the rest see someone fleeing from the crime scene.

Ugh, damnit. Instead of rebuking your theory, I believe that I´ve kinda helped you out, didn´t I?But I can´t find any real hole...Maybe because I'm sleepy or something...

Spoiler:

If the theory holds, Kanon does still have an alibi assuming he's already dead.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Endomae

...?I believe that I have stated that I don´t care very much about all the twilights order and so. In fact, I totally agree with you.

Well then there's no point in saying that George and Shannon were killed on the second twilight.
From the anti-mystery perspective Jessica and Kanon died on the second twilight. From the anti-fantasy perspective there is no such a thing as a real second twilight, only a fake second twilight where the culprit tries to make everyone believe that Jessica and Kanon are the two who are close selected as sacrifice for the witch's revival.

[Endomae]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Well then there's no point in saying that George and Shannon were killed on the second twilight.
From the anti-mystery perspective Jessica and Kanon died on the second twilight. From the anti-fantasy perspective there is no such a thing as a real second twilight, only a fake second twilight where the culprit tries to make everyone believe that Jessica and Kanon are the two who are close selected as sacrifice for the witch's revival.

Well, that was just some wild guiss-guessing.

If the culprit is a fanatic of the occult and the epitath, we must think as a fanatic of the ocult and so.

If he isn´t, that´s clearly unnecesary.

But, I definitively won´t forget the "arrows" point of view. It was pretty interesting.

[Mikachiru]

Originally Posted by Christen

Nobody tried to debunk my theory? I was looking forward to discussing it. Reposting it then. It has holes in it I believe, but I wanna know what they could be.

Spoiler for culprit theory:

The Kanon we know is not the real Kanon but perhaps a look alike/twin/wearing disguise. In this case, the culprit exists among the 17 or less, free to do whatever he needs to do.

1. Kanon is dead before the start of the game. Perhaps just been killed a short time ago.
2. This Kanon holds a close relationship with Shannon. Perhaps another servant from the Fukuin house. Shannon might have other "little brothers" other than the real Kanon.
3. Whenever Kanon's corpse shows up, it is the corpse of the real Kanon.

Now we deal with several red text addressing this theory.

- Kanon was killed in this room (Ep.2 - referring to Jessica's room)
It is not stated what time he was killed. He could have been killed before October 4.

- 6 people: Kinzo, Genji, Shannon, Kanon, Gohda, and Kumasawa are dead! (Ep. 3)
Again, no mention of time. Kanon has not been killed at the same time as the other 5 excluding Kinzo.

- Among the five people in Kyrie's group, he was the first to die.
Kyrie's group of what? It was never specifically mentioned who the member of this group were. We are led to believe that this group is the escaping people. Kyrie has a group of 5 people which has their own agenda in all games.

- In short, he was the 9th victim.
9th victim among what? Again we can think of other angles if Beato is tricking us with the red. Kanon was the 9th victim of a series of murders committed outside October 4 and 5, 1986 in Rokkenjima.

- In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
The culprit in the island might not necessarily be the one who killed Kanon. In this case, the one who killed the real Kanon is not in the island right now.

- They definitely would not mistake any different person for Kanon! (referring to Ep.2 in the kitchen)
The culprit brought Kanon's corpse. This way, they didn't mistake a different person for the real Kanon. This statement also only applies during the time in the kitchen.

- The only one who can claim Kanon's name is the person himself!
This is in a different context with taking someone's name. The culprit might have disguised himself as Kanon, while not taking his name.

Sorry. It just that I already had a theory about Kanon and didn't know whether to post it or not... Anyway, I'll give it a shot (and fail...epicly).

Spoiler for Response:

1) Wasn't he on a date with Jessica...? I'd think it would be strange for Kanon to be dead before Oct. 4th and nobody would suspect fake Kanon of anything (especially Shannon, Jessica, Genji, or Kinzo). Fake Kanon would have to know about Rokkenjima before inpersonating Kanon in order for the murders to work out. That would make fake Kanon a servant, an ex-servant, or someone who is somewhat familiar with the island. There's no way some random person could impersonate Kanon, know how many people would attend the meeting (he would have to have a general idea of how many people would show up), have Kinzo ring in their posistion to create letters from "Beatrice", and find a way to stealthly move around Rokkenjima without getting caught (via secret passages ect.) all in one day (or even a few days). Also, The mass murder has to be planned at least a a year or so in advance. He would have to have worked as a servant the year Beatrice's picture was placed in the mansion in order to know about the epitaph. The corpse is another problem. If it were stored away, there would be signs of decay (not sure how long it takes for signs of decay or Rigor Mortis to set in). It would also have a stench...Though it he were buried in the forest, that wouldn't be a problem.
2) I don't see anything wrong with this.
3) Different agendas? Could you explain a bit for me, please?
4) There was a series of murders on Rokkenjima and nobody knew about it? Wow, nine people just died without anyone carring... If it were on the island, then fake Kanon would of have to kill real Kanon a few days before Oct. 4th without burying him so his corspe would be "fresh".
5) I find this a bit hard to believe...Unless he was lynched outside of Rokkenjima by fake Kanon's cronnies (Ep. 2 says Kanon doesn't really leave Rokkenjima too much)...But wouldn't he still count as a murderer?
6) Then how can the fake Kanon impersonate Kanon by this? It clearly states in red that no one would mistake Kanon for someone else.
7) See above.

This is wrong, I think, but I tried. XD

[Christen]

Originally Posted by Mikachiru

Sorry. It just that I already had a theory about Kanon and didn't know whether to post it or not... Anyway, I'll give it a shot (and fail...epicly).

Spoiler for Response:

1) Wasn't he on a date with Jessica...? I'd think it would be strange for Kanon to be dead before Oct. 4th and nobody would suspect fake Kanon of anything (especially Shannon, Jessica, Genji, or Kinzo). Fake Kanon would have to know about Rokkenjima before inpersonating Kanon in order for the murders to work out. That would make fake Kanon a servant, an ex-servant, or someone who is somewhat familiar with the island. There's no way some random person could impersonate Kanon, know how many people would attend the meeting (he would have to have a general idea of how many people would show up), have Kinzo ring in their posistion to create letters from "Beatrice", and find a way to stealthly move around Rokkenjima without getting caught (via secret passages ect.) all in one day (or even a few days). Also, The mass murder has to be planned at least a a year or so in advance. He would have to have worked as a servant the year Beatrice's picture was placed in the mansion in order to know about the epitaph. The corpse is another problem. If it were stored away, there would be signs of decay (not sure how long it takes for signs of decay or Rigor Mortis to set in). It would also have a stench...Though it he were buried in the forest, that wouldn't be a problem.
2) I don't see anything wrong with this.
3) Different agendas? Could you explain a bit for me, please?
4) There was a series of murders on Rokkenjima and nobody knew about it? Wow, nine people just died without anyone carring... If it were on the island, then fake Kanon would of have to kill real Kanon a few days before Oct. 4th without burying him so his corspe would be "fresh".
5) I find this a bit hard to believe...Unless he was lynched outside of Rokkenjima by fake Kanon's cronnies (Ep. 2 says Kanon doesn't really leave Rokkenjima too much)...But wouldn't he still count as a murderer?
6) Then how can the fake Kanon impersonate Kanon by this? It clearly states in red that no one would mistake Kanon for someone else.
7) See above.

This is wrong, I think, but I tried. XD

I'll try as hard as I can to reply to each statement. With these are new blue text.

Spoiler for each statement:

- I remember in Episode 1 that Kanon was on the verge of death before completely dying.
All of the survivors have alibis! Let us include the dead as well!! In short, no kind of human or dead person on the island could have killed Kanon!
This denies the possibility of any of the people in the island killing Kanon. If someone indeed ran away from the scene of the crime, he is not the cause of Kanon's death. Therefore,
The Kanon who was attacked in the boiler room and died later is the fake Kanon.

- Regarding an agenda. It is just a theory that Kyrie is part of a group that is planning something else regarding the Ushiromiya inheritance. Rudolf might be part of this if we take his "premonition" as a hint. This group isn't necessarily an ill-natured group, but it's just a thought.

- Regarding the series of murders. It doesn't necessarily need to be on Rokkenjima. Kinzo might also be among the victims here if you think of it. The nature of this separate murder might be different. Again, it's just a proposition.

- Again, someone else might have killed Kanon, but the fake Kanon knows about this. He didn't kill him.

- Obstacle. The only way I can try to explain it is There are two Kanons. Identical twins with the same name. Both might have different real names. This is the only obstacle of this theory.