2011-12-22, 14:57 | Link #18601 | |
Shadow of Effilisi
Join Date: Oct 2011
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Everyone knows Germany is the only country that can pay. And thus it has the most say on all matters regarding the Euro and ECB. |
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2011-12-22, 15:02 | Link #18602 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
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2011-12-22, 15:23 | Link #18603 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
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Main difference is that Germany's public finances are healthier and it's economy recovered faster than most from the 2008 economic crisis. The jump start of the economy is in part due to wage growth control schemes and strong global demand for German exports. Wage controls alone won't help a country get out of an economic crisis as it negatively affects domestic demand. Quote:
One of the key problems in the EU is that we still have banks that are tied to a specific member state. The US' Federal reserve system protects banks from being judged by the public finances of their home states. For example Italian banks saw their risk premiums increase alongside of that of their country, while no American bank will suffer from being situated in California. That state is as bankrupt as Greece. It's a design flaw in the EMU/ECB system partially caused by this incessant need for national sovereignty. Quote:
Last edited by Bri; 2011-12-22 at 15:37. |
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2011-12-22, 15:39 | Link #18604 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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About the calculations: well, the same people that implemented the Euro, saying it will be as good as the DM, promising that never, ever will one Euro member bail-out another, are now the ones advocating the rescue operations, arguing it will be the cheaper option in the end. Also a lot empty words are being tossed around when it comes to justify transferring German money on EU matters: "preserving the hope of a stable, prosperous EU", "peacful EU", etc.. Not really hard economical numbers, i.e. what I regard as "calculations". And even if transferring money is in our interest, politicians present us no numbers as to which extend this holds true. 100 billion? 500 billion? 2 trillion? Maybe you think your neighbor should work harder for his kid's insurance, so you can keep more money to yourself. Quote:
Germany is highly overestimated. We couldn't even save Greece, and we can most certainly not save Italy or Spain. Wrong. It only has a very small voice in the ECB, it simply got overruled in all bond buying decisions by the PIIGS and France, the latter being most involved in Greece and Italy and thus being the strongest supporter of the bail-outs. Germany opposed them in 2010 but gave in eventually. The ECB president was French until a few weeks ago, now he's Italian. The new and old IMF directors are both French. |
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2011-12-22, 16:14 | Link #18605 | |||
Shadow of Effilisi
Join Date: Oct 2011
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2011-12-22, 16:25 | Link #18606 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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Well, I suppose after the nuclear energy U-turn nobody would really care anymore.
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2011-12-22, 16:37 | Link #18607 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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The ECB pumped 500 billion into the market just a few days ago. It does not have the power to implement Euro bonds - that has nothing to do with the ECB council's majorities. |
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2011-12-22, 16:49 | Link #18608 |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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I think there is only one reason (and Merkel knows this very well) why this is never going to happen when Germany is part of the Euro zone. Our constitutional court would make such decissions void in an unilateral way... with all the consequences (Germany's exit from the Euro(zone)).
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2011-12-22, 16:57 | Link #18609 | |
Senior Member
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2011-12-22, 17:04 | Link #18610 | |
Asuki-tan Kairin ↓
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Fürth (GER)
Age: 43
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2011-12-22, 17:09 | Link #18612 | |
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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I'd like you to show me any case of yellow journalism on the BBC's part that can at all compare to what Fox News shovels out. I don't think the BBC has any outright agenda, beyond the fact that they have a broadly liberal culture. British liberalism has generally been pro Europe over the years. |
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2011-12-22, 17:58 | Link #18613 | |
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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But yea, BBC is no Foxnews, not at all. Foxnews is mean-spirited propagandistic garbage, a true bile tap. It's no coincidence that people watching Foxnews are informed _worse_ than people who don't watch TV at all. |
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2011-12-22, 18:10 | Link #18614 | |
'אין ייאוש בעולם כלל
Join Date: Oct 2011
Location: UK
Age: 39
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I read an article in a paper that when Cameron vetoed the Merkozy legislation recently, BBC News at 6 spent the first 10 minutes with several dissenting voices acting as if it was a sign of the apocalypse. They then allowed a 2 minute interview to a low-rank government lacky to explain Cameron's rationale before moving on. Actually come to think of it, didn't the previous DG of BBC all but admit they weren't exactly "fair and balanced" when it came to Europe? |
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2011-12-22, 18:34 | Link #18615 | |
Shadow of Effilisi
Join Date: Oct 2011
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A more accurate saying is a Euro "break up". If big economies like Spain and Italy default and exit from Euro, then eurozone is effectively broken up. It may return to individual currencies. Or it may end up with a smaller common currency among the healthier economies. But the Euro as we know it would be gone.
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2011-12-22, 19:10 | Link #18616 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
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2011-12-22, 19:41 | Link #18617 | ||
Banned
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Hamburg
Age: 54
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I shake my head at the hysterical nonsense which is spouted in various anglophile media. I could perfectly well imagining Greece dropping out eventually, yet noone will really care (but the Greek themselves, but sorry folks, you brought this upon yourself). And I see absolutely no NEED for Italy or Spain to contemplate it, because the ECB will eventually purchase their government bonds anyway when necessary. But even if they do, it's going to remain the currency of the European core. It would make no sense to change that for Germany, France, Austria, or the Benelux countries. I'd also like to point out that all the handwringing and ohmygawding, the Euro stays still stable up 30% compared to the US dollar since its inception, and with an inflation rate of below 3%. At the peak of the terrible terrible crisis. And that all his earlier yelling and screaming notwithstanding, George Soros has recently invested 2 billion in Euro bonds (below market price due to the Corzine bankruptcy). Yea, I'm totally in panic over here. Quote:
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2011-12-22, 20:01 | Link #18618 |
Gamilas Falls
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Republic of California
Age: 46
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Back around 1999, our social science teachers were predicting that sometime in the next five years (2015 I guess) that the US Dollar and the Euro would be about balanced and about the only things, collectively, blocking the Yuan. I'm not sure what they were basing this off of, but I think it was precentage of the global economy, with China at 20% and the European Union and United States at 15% each keeping China in check.
But it has been 12 years since I was in that class, so my memory is a little fuzzy.
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2011-12-22, 20:28 | Link #18619 | |||
Shadow of Effilisi
Join Date: Oct 2011
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2011-12-22, 20:40 | Link #18620 | ||||
Knight Errant
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Age: 35
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I can't point you towards gushing articles on the BBC about how Europe is the future, mostly because the BBC doesn't tend to express itself so overtly. They tend to do a good job of restricting themselves to the facts. They may have guest commentators on, but their opinion is always their own, not the BBC (they don't have Fox style "pundits".) They may not print articles particularly favoring Europe, but they don't print anything labeling it a disaster either. Quote:
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I will admit that the BBC's coverage of the Euro "crisis" does seem a bit more on the hysterical side, but to be honest, that's pretty rare for the BBC. Last time I heard that kind of language was 2008 (for obvious reasons). Prior to that... Anyway, on the scale of journalistic hysteria Fox would be a 10, and BBC would be a 2 or 3. During the London riots, Fox would have been "America is coming to an end, our youth have lost their morals!!!", BBC was "what's going on?". You also have to be sure to separate the BBC from the Op-eds and commentators they may invite on their shows or website. Those commentators do not represent the BBC, and represent a fairly diverse set of opinions. |
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current affairs, discussion, international |
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