Character Discussion - Kallen

[Bonzo]

Originally Posted by yvj

What about the canon profile quote I put out there?

Depends, at last Kallen said "I lost", instead Suzaku told her "you win" before to run away, then....

In my opinion is more like a draw game, after all with the reborn of zero she understood he's suzaku and all the rest and her heart totally broke 1 second after, she shout "don't do it!" but to take lelouch under arrest was out of discussion for the plan.

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

becouse THAT was part of the plan
kallen almost stopping him WASNT
next you'll suggest that her breaking into the avalon and almost killing him was a way to distract her while he and suzaku are on the way to the damocles

and the tape with shnizel is possibly the stupidest part of the entire last arc (and thats saying something)

Plus he had all the time to work through Schniezel's mask and figure out his personality, and his responses (uber unrealistic yes). There's no way he could have "Bismark" foreseen Gino geting Kallen in.

Especially the way Suzaku pawned Gino without further thought to him.

Originally Posted by Bonzo

Depends, at last Kallen said "I lost", instead Suzaku told her "you win" before to run away, then....

In my opinion is more like a draw game, after all with the reborn of zero she understood he's suzaku and all the rest and her heart totally broke 1 second after, she shout "don't do it!" but to take lelouch under arrest was out of discussion for the plan.

Kallen lost because Suzaku stopped her objective. Suzaku said you won for the duel.

[bladeofdarkness]

if this was part of the plan, it seems to be the part lelouch DIDNT TELL SUZAKU ABOUT

[Bonzo]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

becouse THAT was part of the plan
kallen almost stopping him WASNT
next you'll suggest that her breaking into the avalon and almost killing him was a way to distract her while he and suzaku are on the way to the damocles

and the tape with shnizel is possibly the stupidest part of the entire last arc (and thats saying something)

The admiral avalon and Lelouch was the primary targets, then he KNEW everybody wanted to kill him, Kallen above all, because the most involved emotionally.
Unfortunately Lelouch seems characterized like a clairvoyant, like a "god", because he's always 2 steps forward the others.
For this seems he foreseen EVERY unforeseen or to have a immediate remedy for it, the most improbable too.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

The admiral avalon and Lelouch was the primary targets, then he KNEW everybody wanted to kill him, Kallen above all, because the most involved emotionally.
Unfortunately Lelouch seems characterized like a clairvoyant, like a "god", because he's always 2 steps forward the others.
For this seems he foreseen EVERY unforeseen, the most improbable too.

He didn't foresee Kallen nearly killing him in the hanger. By the same token he did not foresee Gino sneaking on board the Damocles and destroying his Knightmare, nor did he foresee Gino getting beat up just enough to lose while still mobile enough to disable the shield and let Kallen in. Lelouch isn't psychic, just good at reading people.

[bladeofdarkness]

you claim suzaku threw the fight on purpose
suzaku contredicts you by saying he is trying to win and CANT
he admits defeat and the post yvj added confirms it

lelouch couldnt forsee that kallen would make it into the shield (considering what HE had to do to get past it)
let alone COUNT on her to get in and then fight suzaku to the result that happened
this happened and they used it for the plan AFTERWARDS
but that was NOT part of the plan and suzaku WASNT faking the fight

[Bonzo]

Hmm...depend, Lelouch knew guren and shen-hu was able to broke energy field, then destroy the avalon, to down his capital ship was in the plan, in fact lloyd & c. knew what to do.
And...after his success to board the damocles, a recall of every available force to stop him was obvious, like gino, then to prepare some holes in the luminous for them too.
Gino knew the avalon schemes, then he could enter inside avalon after lelouch and prepare a ambush (and he made it).

[bladeofdarkness]

your making stuff up
he planned to charge the damocles WITH the avalon AND the hostages originally (he said so)
and when xing-ke unexpectedly sank it he switched to operation "something or other in latin" that involved sayoko and the others pretending to betray him
he is surprised that xing-ke does this, and suzaku tries his damned hardest to STOP xing-ke from sinking the avalon
it WASNT part of the plan
he simply had a BACK UP plan (which sayoko was unhappy about)

he didnt prepare "holes in the luminus" for them to enter by nor did he have any intention to do so (it would mean they could kill him
he made them surrender right after getting his hands on the fleja

i dont know where you are bringing these ideas of your from, but lelouch makes it very clear that he DID NOT expect the OOBK to prove such a problem for the plan

[Bonzo]

About the holes on the luminous, I didn't speak about Lelouch, but about Schneizel, if your fortress is under attack, don't you open a way for to let enter your allies to stop Lelouch?

However, we made a large out-topic, we must continue in another place.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Bonzo

About the holes on the luminous, I didn't speak about Lelouch, but about Schneizel, if your fortress is under attack, don't you open a way for to let enter your allies to stop Lelouch?

However, we made a large out-topic, we must continue in another place.

No one was even controlling the shields at the time. The place was damaged and set to explode. Gino managed to sneak in. It wasn't expected, just like half the things in the battle.

However, the original point remains. Suzaku didn't throw the fight. He was trying to win. He says so to himself, not to Kallen, and he's not aware of the fourth wall so it isn't for the viewers, either.

[Bonzo]

Changing situation, next time you will see Kallen happy, I hope this can be appreciated.

[demon_god04]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

No one was even controlling the shields at the time. The place was damaged and set to explode. Gino managed to sneak in. It wasn't expected, just like half the things in the battle.

However, the original point remains. Suzaku didn't throw the fight. He was trying to win. He says so to himself, not to Kallen, and he's not aware of the fourth wall so it isn't for the viewers, either.

Not to mention that Lelouch also had an army waiting outside, lowering the shields would basically turn the Damocles into one huge battle ground and Lelouch would have a chance to escape. With the shields in place and the place set to blow, Schneizel maximizes the chance that Lelouch would die on the Damocles and cut off any other help that may attempt to reach him.

[Kid Ying]

Well, i don't think Suzaku throw the fight, but i don't think Kallen won either. The Gurren was totally destroyed and she passed away. Without Gino, she would die for sure(argh, i hate to give credit for him). To me, it was a tie, which is quite good for Kallen, since Suzaku is a god.

BUT, i don't think Suzaku was fighting all he could, because he, unlike Kallen, didn't want to kill his rival.

[Crisis]

Is it Kallen or Karen?
Saw Karen on some subs.
Karen sounds much better.

[Airi]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Well, i don't think Suzaku throw the fight, but i don't think Kallen won either. The Gurren was totally destroyed and she passed away. Without Gino, she would die for sure(argh, i hate to give credit for him). To me, it was a tie, which is quite good for Kallen, since Suzaku is a god.

BUT, i don't think Suzaku was fighting all he could, because he, unlike Kallen, didn't want to kill his rival.

I completely agree with you!^_^

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Well, i don't think Suzaku throw the fight, but i don't think Kallen won either. The Gurren was totally destroyed and she passed away. Without Gino, she would die for sure(argh, i hate to give credit for him). To me, it was a tie, which is quite good for Kallen, since Suzaku is a god.

BUT, i don't think Suzaku was fighting all he could, because he, unlike Kallen, didn't want to kill his rival.

are you assuming he in fact CAN hold back when faced with a real risk
his geass FORCES him to do what ever it takes to survive whether he likes it or not
its not simply a power up

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Well, i don't think Suzaku throw the fight, but i don't think Kallen won either. The Gurren was totally destroyed and she passed away. Without Gino, she would die for sure(argh, i hate to give credit for him). To me, it was a tie, which is quite good for Kallen, since Suzaku is a god.

BUT, i don't think Suzaku was fighting all he could, because he, unlike Kallen, didn't want to kill his rival.

Actually, what happened between the last fight, was the epitome of Pyrrhic Victory for Kallen. She won, in cost of her mech. {and could potentially her life, if the blond boy would not catch her. At least, for sucking our asses 24 whole epis, he did something actually useful. 8D}
It was a victory for her though.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

BUT, i don't think Suzaku was fighting all he could, because he, unlike Kallen, didn't want to kill his rival.

As blade said, he wasn't holding back. He couldn't. He was using every bit of strength he had and still couldn't top her. This is using his Geass, too, so he's outright cheating as far as "best of your ability" goes and he still cannot win. That says something.

Originally Posted by ztech

Is it Kallen or Karen?
Saw Karen on some subs.
Karen sounds much better.

Kallen is official. "Karen" is just how it comes across when pronounced.

[Nobodyman9]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

are you assuming he in fact CAN hold back when faced with a real risk
his geass FORCES him to do what ever it takes to survive whether he likes it or not
its not simply a power up

Well that's just it. He doesn't have to kill Kallen in order to survive. If backed into a corner and left with no other option, sure.

Actually, I think it's quite amusing that we're still arguing about who won between Kallen and Suzaku. I like to think of it as kind of like the final battle between Kazuma and Ryuho. Two rivals of about equal strength, but in the end, one wins out by only the slightest bit.

[SonOfHeaven]

Didn't want to get in the middle of this. However, Suzaku himself stated he couldn't make it decisive even with his "live on" geass effect. Unlike with Bismark, he activated his geass effect right from the get go. He was trying to win the fight as soon as possible. Kallen was trying to defeat him. With the "live on" geass effect, for him to "live on". He had to defeat to Kallen. They both were fighting to win. Suzaku(mentioned her last blow got him) and heck even Gino mentioned she won the fight. So in my eyes Kallen won. Suzaku didn't threw the fight.