Mobile Suit Gundam: The Witch From Mercury - Anime Episode Discussion

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

Yeah... the show has pretty much lost me. I like some of the characters and concepts and world... but it's like it never committed to actually showing anything to us.

- This whole SAL thing is easily the worst bit. They weren't some Harvey Dent who was front and center and whose fall was tragic because of how much we came to know and care about them. They were a barely mentioned organization we had almost no concept of. The political and actual battles between the Benerit and SAL could have been interesting... if the show had cared to put them on screen. But it never did.

The details are different but the core concept is the same: new villain who took over the story from the main villain ¾ of the way into it. The difference being: SAL is not a tragic character that they want the audience to root for, so their screentime can take a backseat as long as their setup makes sense. They’re just a shady BTS org after all.

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

- The combat the last few episodes has been too frantic to be any good. Suletta zooming around in tight shots with Aerial's gunbits blasting away barely ever in frame is not compelling. I liked the battles earlier in the show, but here at the end there's really not much on screen worth mentioning.

I mean, that’s pretty much what you get when the two “combatants” don’t really want to hurt each other. If they’re serious, Eri with Aerial (with Permet Score between 6-8) would’ve destroyed Suletta who piloted the outdated Calibarn (with Permet 5 max) just like how Aerial destroyed Dilanza in a flash back in episode 1. The Aerial & Calibarn fight is more argument that fight really. OTOH Schwarzette’s fight was tighter coz, at some point, Lauda really did want to kill Guel.

Also, the fight between Guel & Shaddiq (+ Sabina) in eps 20 was very good.

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

- Even basic, foundational aspects of the world weren't well done. When Chuchu switched off the permet control of her suit it became noticeably harder to control and she commented on it. Sure, we've been able to infer that this is the case, but the show never, ever actually showed us the way mobile suits work in this world until the next to last episode!

Did we ever get any detailed on-screen explanation on how to control a mech in a real-robot mech anime? Heck, even Anno (the detail-maniac otaku) did not explain how the pilots control their EVAs in Evangelion other than the pilots pushing buttons & grabbing/swinging joysticks. In fact, G Gundam had one of the best explanations on how the pilots controls their Gundams: by wearing futuristic Mocap Suits (with the help of Kyoji!!!)




Meanwhile, pilots from other Gundam universes are doing this to pilot their mechs:


Also, they did tell us about Permet in the show through teachings. One of the occasions being:
Episode 18:

• Teacher: “When Permet is discovered within minerals, its special information-sharing properties became the basis for all these theories. Today, it’s responsible for controlling and managing systems of every kind.”
• Suletta: “Is it used in the monorail too?”
• Teacher: “Yes. Permet links connect all the transit cars on campus to central dispatch. This prevent uneven data distribution.”

Just from that exchange alone, we know that the difference between piloting with Permet & w/o Permet is like an extreme version between driving auto & driving manual. Kenanji even provided a more descriptive analogy of piloting Suit non-Permet: “That’s like driving a car blindfolded!”

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

This made Aerial's abilities confusing early on, for sure. I'd even say it lessened the impact of them because it wasn't clear if Aerial was switching suits off or frying their pilots or just being immune to Gundam Antidote, or what... There were so many parts of the show that were like this. Important parts of the world never really given screen time.

Which Aerial ability that confuse you? Who knows. I might be able to help explain it.

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

The show either needed a lot more episodes so it could focus on all these cool aspects of its world that it only showed in passing. Or it needed much tighter focus so as to make actual compelling use of the things it did show us. Unfortunately, it's just a mishmash of cool concepts that when added together are lesser than the sum of its parts because the parts were never really shown.

I actually agree that the show could use more episodes.

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

I'll watch the final episode to see how they resolve this confusing jumble and to see whether they let Miorine and Suletta live happily or not, but overall this is going to go down as yet another Gundam disappointment for me. I was hoping it would be the first Gundam show I actually liked, but... nope.

What Gundams have you seen so far?

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Think whatever you want.

I was just pointing out that not all fights have "proper finish" and SAL has been foreshadowed. They're not necessarily narrative problems. Your complaint on them depends more on what you want instead of what the story aimed to do.

But my problem is I felt like this fight, of any fight, deserved a proper finish rather than being interrupted by an antagonist group that had clunky foreshadowing, because I feel like the writing has been leaning wayyyy more into Prospera and Eri than the SAL.

Originally Posted by Ragashingo

- The combat the last few episodes has been too frantic to be any good. Suletta zooming around in tight shots with Aerial's gunbits blasting away barely ever in frame is not compelling. I liked the battles earlier in the show, but here at the end there's really not much on screen worth mentioning.

Yeah, Calibarn vs Aerial felt kind of underwhelming to me too.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by azarhal

SAL is not the government, it's an independent organization that mitigate issues between Fronts controlled by the companies that own said Fronts via an assembly. Were learned that via piecemeal info drop, but the show has been very much watch and pay attention over spoon-feeding info dumps since the beginning.

Also, it's clear from the description of it that SAL has zero authority over Benerit Group being "too big". The whole thing is clearly a power grab from the SAL higher council members and whichever companies they are member off and/or support them.

And we know since mid-second season that SAL (High Council) was trying to manufacture an excuse to attack the Benerit Group. I'm not sure how a viewers could believe they were the good guys by that point. Using terrorists to attack civilians to create an opening for direct assault is just way up there in term of being scumbags.

The show communicated most of that pretty poorly. Hence the confusion on the part of many people. And I guess you could think that they were a good guy faction by the fact that one of the sympathetic characters of the show, Feng Jun, was part of SAL and that her henchman, Guston Parche, also still exhibits good guy behaviour. Yeah, totally no reason why people would mistake them for a good guy faction and this sudden turnabout came out of nowhere for many. ^^

I will admit I had either not comprehended or already forgotten that SAL had anything to do with the terrorist attacks. Way too many factions in this show. I still have no idea what Dominicus is about.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The show communicated most of that pretty poorly. Hence the confusion on the part of many people. And I guess you could think that they were a good guy faction by the fact that one of the sympathetic characters of the show, Feng Jun, was part of SAL and that her henchman, Guston Parche, also still exhibits good guy behaviour. Yeah, totally no reason why people would mistake them for a good guy faction and this sudden turnabout came out of nowhere for many. ^^

I will admit I had either not comprehended or already forgotten that SAL had anything to do with the terrorist attacks. Way too many factions in this show. I still have no idea what Dominicus is about.

Even Feng Jun has this to say about her own organization:
Episode 16: "Even if it requires groundless accusations, the higher-ups plan to forcibly intervene in the Benerit Group"
Episode 19: "The higher-ups are trying to suppress the Group. The ones who support the once-defunct Ochs-Earth as a covert organization are SAL's high council."

Like, she outright told the audience that SAL is generally shady & dangerous since episode 16.

Btw Dominicus is Cathedra's forces.

Originally Posted by Frontier

But my problem is I felt like this fight, of any fight, deserved a proper finish rather than being interrupted by an antagonist group that had clunky foreshadowing, because I feel like the writing has been leaning wayyyy more into Prospera and Eri than the SAL.

Are you just gonna keep repeating that point to the point of spamming?

We get it, the fight between Aerial & Calibarn disappoint you so much. Now can you stop replying to me to repeat that same point and move on?

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

The show communicated most of that pretty poorly. Hence the confusion on the part of many people. And I guess you could think that they were a good guy faction by the fact that one of the sympathetic characters of the show, Feng Jun, was part of SAL and that her henchman, Guston Parche, also still exhibits good guy behaviour. Yeah, totally no reason why people would mistake them for a good guy faction and this sudden turnabout came out of nowhere for many. ^^

I will admit I had either not comprehended or already forgotten that SAL had anything to do with the terrorist attacks. Way too many factions in this show. I still have no idea what Dominicus is about.

I wouldn't say it's badly communicated, it's more that the info is rarely repeated and viewers forget about it by the time they become relevant again. Not having the mid-season recap in English doesn't help, the season 2 one explained Shaddiq's plan and war partitioning apparently.

SAL isn't a monolithic entity, that's brought up by Feng when she mention the High Council is doing shady things behind the rest of SAL's back to Guston in early season 2. And now Guston was backstabbed by his own big boss...

Dominicus is an elite force (basically a PMC) that is under Cathedra, and Cathedra itself is the Mobile Suits Development Council auditing branch.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by azarhal

I wouldn't say it's badly communicated, it's more that the info is rarely repeated and viewers forget about it by the time they become relevant again. Not having the mid-season recap in English doesn't help, the season 2 one explained Shaddiq's plan and war partitioning apparently.

SAL isn't a monolithic entity, that's brought up by Feng when she mention the High Council is doing shady things behind the rest of SAL's back to Guston in early season 2. And now Guston was backstabbed by his own big boss...

Dominicus is an elite force (basically a PMC) that is under Cathedra, and Cathedra itself is the Mobile Suits Development Council auditing branch.

Thanks for the explanation. And, yeah, that's kind of the problem, I think. Dominicus is a sub-organization of an organization which itself is a sub-organization for the main organization.. Why do we need this sort of complication in the first place?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Thanks for the explanation. And, yeah, that's kind of the problem, I think. Dominicus is a sub-organization of an organization which itself is a sub-organization for the main organization.. Why do we need this sort of complication in the first place?

To be fair, I've seen much more complex divisions withins the corporate bodies of my company's customers. Considering that Benerit is a giant space conglomerate, the ladder of hierarchy down to Dominicus is pretty simple.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Thanks for the explanation. And, yeah, that's kind of the problem, I think. Dominicus is a sub-organization of an organization which itself is a sub-organization for the main organization.. Why do we need this sort of complication in the first place?

Oh it gets worst, the Mobile Suits Development Council is under the Space Development Council (mentioned in a recap episode, but not the anime).

The Mobile Suits Development Council isn't related to the Benerit Group thought, but a few of the CEOs (Peil, Jertuk and Grassley at least) have a seat on it and Delling has Cathedra in his pocket (or had, now they sided with SAL according to Rajan a few eps back).

Companies loves councils/organizations, especially to create standards for industries to follow. My own company has joined multiple ones, it's the only way to have a voice to influence where things are going (aka "please use what I already designed!").

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Even Feng Jun has this to say about her own organization:
Episode 16: "Even if it requires groundless accusations, the higher-ups plan to forcibly intervene in the Benerit Group"
Episode 19: "The higher-ups are trying to suppress the Group. The ones who support the once-defunct Ochs-Earth as a covert organization are SAL's high council."

Like, she outright told the audience that SAL is generally shady & dangerous since episode 16.

Btw Dominicus is Cathedra's forces.

Are you just gonna keep repeating that point to the point of spamming?

We get it, the fight between Aerial & Calibarn disappoint you so much. Now can you stop replying to me to repeat that same point and move on?

I'm not trying to spam, just trying to convey why I felt like the end of the episode and how they handled it and the SAL just feels underwhelming and unnecessary at this point.

Personally I feel like it shows a weakness in the shows' plotting and pacing.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The details are different but the core concept is the same: new villain who took over the story from the main villain ¾ of the way into it. The difference being: SAL is not a tragic character that they want the audience to root for, so their screentime can take a backseat as long as their setup makes sense. They’re just a shady BTS org after all.

Adding or abruptly changing a villain ¾ of the way through a story is ALWAYS poorly received. It is a frequent criticism of any film, novel, or tv series narrative.

You might not see a lot of complaints against a given work, but the people who criticize series for those sorts of things will always pounce on that misstep. It is a consistent topic of what not to do on writing forums and a frequent complaint against Disney's various IPs of late in western cinema.

It's one thing to mention a villain as a potential looming threat from Act 1, it's another to have a present character later do a heel turn (tragic or planned betrayal). It's entirely different to first introduce them in the 3rd Act and have them do their villainous deeds in the 4th Act. They have no weight in the narrative, the audience has zero investment in them. That's the problem. Good villains are built by having the audience spend time with them or at least aware of them.

Elnora is the real villain of the series, because we've seen how devious she gets, and get why her goals are directly opposed to the protagonists'. Everyone else is just shallow and poorly founded "Greed."

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Elnora is the real villain of the series, because we've seen how devious she gets, and get why her goals are directly opposed to the protagonists'. Everyone else is just shallow and poorly founded "Greed."

The show main protagonist is Suletta and Elnora is in no way opposed to her nor do Suletta see her as an enemy.

And Miorine, the deuteragonist, admitted taking Suletta away from her mother was wrong and she extended the olive branch to Elnora last episode (people seems to forget real fast that Elnora lost her family and colleagues to Delling). She clearly don't see Elnora as a villain either. Stopping Quiet Zero was to try to get SAL off their back going by Delling's request last episode.

And we don't actually know what are Elnora's true goals outside expending the data storm so Eri can be free in it. The only group who has been speculating about how bad Quiet Zero will be is...SAL.

[magnuskn]

Yeah, if we discount all the murder of SAL soldiers and the attempted murder of Miorine, El5n and assorted friends and provoking a massacre on Earth, Elnora and Eri make for really decent people! I mean, what's a little murder between family and friends?

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Yeah, if we discount all the murder of SAL soldiers and the attempted murder of Miorine, El5n and assorted friends and provoking a massacre on Earth, Elnora and Eri make for really decent people! I mean, what's a little murder between family and friends?

SAL attacked Quiet Zero, shot first and she defended herself. What's wrong with that? The next episode even showed that Quiet Zero needs to recharge so destroying everything was the only option to stop them.

Oh wait, I forgot you are one of those people who believe SAL are the good guys, instead of the group behind the terrorists who attacked both Plant Quetta and the school, killing countless innocents civilians going on a mission to dismantle the Benerit Group using at least 4 fleets of 60+ ships with orders to shoot on sight.

Elnora didn't use her lethal gun once last episode, despite a clear line of sight. She had plenty of opportunities to shoot Moirine, but she didn't. Also, the haro-machinegun were using none-lethal concussion beam going by how one knocked out El5n's gun form his hand. Bel and El5n shot at her with real ammo thought, yet she ignored them the entire time...

She's not responsible for the Earthians soldiers breaking their orders (of not shooting) over some explosion far behind them that didn't arm a single of their soldiers during a ceasefire. Nor is she responsible for the Benerit soldiers also breaking their orders to not shoot.

[ryllharu]

Originally Posted by azarhal

The show main protagonist is Suletta and Elnora is in no way opposed to her nor do Suletta see her as an enemy.

And Miorine, the deuteragonist, admitted taking Suletta away from her mother was wrong and she extended the olive branch to Elnora last episode (people seems to forget real fast that Elnora lost her family and colleagues to Delling). She clearly don't see Elnora as a villain either. Stopping Quiet Zero was to try to get SAL off their back going by Delling's request last episode.

And we don't actually know what are Elnora's true goals outside expending the data storm so Eri can be free in it. The only group who has been speculating about how bad Quiet Zero will be is...SAL.

Elnora wants to sacrifice the well-being of others, control everything that runs on Permet (which is everything), in order to grant Eri a new life that they're not even sure of what that means. She also still has a vengeful streak, which she is exerting on SAL since she found out they and Ochs Earth conspired against Vanadis and ultimately lead to the death of the doctor, her husband, all their friends, and ultimately Eri.

Suletta and Miorine do not think her plan is a good thing, because it isn't. We do know what accomplishing it will mean. It increases the hostility across the solar system, sacrifices many people who need to die for it to hit its full potential, and leaves Elnora (or anyone else on QZ) as the solar system's sole economic and technological dictator.

They are directly opposed. Elnora wants it to happen regardless of the pain it will cause others, Suletta and Mio do not accept that trade off.

Prospero in The Tempest is the main antagonist but is also redeemed at the end by giving up on his revenge and happily having his daughter marry the son of his old foe. Not hard to figure this one out.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by azarhal

SAL attacked Quiet Zero, shot first and she defended herself. What's wrong with that? The next episode even showed that Quiet Zero needs to recharge so destroying everything was the only option to stop them.

Oh wait, I forgot you are one of those people who believe SAL are the good guys, instead of the group behind the terrorists who attacked both Plant Quetta and the school, killing countless innocents civilians going on a mission to dismantle the Benerit Group using at least 4 fleets of 60+ ships with orders to shoot on sight.

Elnora didn't use her lethal gun once last episode, despite a clear line of sight. She had plenty of opportunities to shoot Moirine, but she didn't. Also, the haro-machinegun were using none-lethal concussion beam going by how one knocked out El5n's gun form his hand. Bel and El5n shot at her with real ammo thought, yet she ignored them the entire time...

She's not responsible for the Earthians soldiers breaking their orders (of not shooting) over some explosion far behind them that didn't arm a single of their soldiers during a ceasefire. Nor is she responsible for the Benerit soldiers also breaking their orders to not shoot.

I think Elnora knew what was likely to happen from her actions on Earth and she didn't seem bothered by it at all. And it feels like some weird visual coding if she was going for non-lethal maneuvers, like why even bring her own gun?

Honestly I feel like a lot of this ambiguity owes itself to some messy plotting on Okuichi's part that either relies a lot on assumptions or stuff that's suddenly relevant.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Elnora wants to sacrifice the well-being of others, control everything that runs on Permet (which is everything), in order to grant Eri a new life that they're not even sure of what that means. She also still has a vengeful streak, which she is exerting on SAL since she found out they and Ochs Earth conspired against Vanadis and ultimately lead to the death of the doctor, her husband, all their friends, and ultimately Eri.

Controlling everything with permet is Nortrette/Delling version of Quiet Zero. Elnora only talks about the data storm created by it when it comes to her plans. The two versions overlap each others thought and I'm pretty sure the entity Eri talked to last episode was Nortrette's permet ghost...

Ochs Earth haven't conspired against Vanadis, you misunderstood what was said in the episode. After Vanadis/Ochs Earth were destroyed by Cathedra, SAL saved what was left of Ochs Earth and hide them, Gundams included.

She's pissed at Ochs Earth for turning GUND into a military tech thought. I'm waiting for Vanadis Heart chapter 3 tl to know more, it apparently have some lore about what happened and it seems Vanadis staff was only labelled witches after they were bought by Ochs Earth.

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Suletta and Miorine do not think her plan is a good thing, because it isn't. We do know what accomplishing it will mean. It increases the hostility across the solar system, sacrifices many people who need to die for it to hit its full potential, and leaves Elnora (or anyone else on QZ) as the solar system's sole economic and technological dictator.

They are directly opposed. Elnora wants it to happen regardless of the pain it will cause others, Suletta and Mio do not accept that trade off.

Suletta and Miorine are acting on the speculation of a SAL agent that Quiet Zero will be bad to go and stop Prospera. They actually don't really know what she's planning to do. Suletta/Eri conversation shows that, Suletta accuse them of wanting to kill people and Eri answer "only if they try to stop us".

and being the boss of the Solar system was Delling's plan for Quiet Zero. He's still around and he might still try to take over next episode for all we know...

Originally Posted by ryllharu

Prospero in The Tempest is the main antagonist but is also redeemed at the end by giving up on his revenge and happily having his daughter marry the son of his old foe. Not hard to figure this one out.

Prospero is the protagonist of the Tempest actually. The antagonists are the sailors/pirates who tries to kill him and steal his stuff. Those sailors/pirates recruit Caliban until Caliban realize they are wrong and return to Prospero's side...

Originally Posted by Frontier

I think Elnora knew what was likely to happen from her actions on Earth and she didn't seem bothered by it at all. And it feels like some weird visual coding if she was going for non-lethal maneuvers, like why even bring her own gun?

Honestly I feel like a lot of this ambiguity owes itself to some messy plotting on Okuichi's part that either relies a lot on assumptions or stuff that's suddenly relevant.

She gives the impression she doesn't give a damn, but Elnora has been "ice blooded" since the prologue. She rarely shows her emotions, unless it involve Eri.

And yes, the show is visually coding Prospera as the villain, with extra theatrics on top (like Prospero in the Tempest). But she was going for intimidation in that scene. Talking, talking and talking. Not even taking shoot at Bel/El5n despite them shooting at her. She didn't say a word at Plant Quetta when she head shot those 3 terrorists threatening Suletta.

[ryllharu]

You are wildly misinterpreting and twisting dialogue and objective plot points to project your (incorrect) interpretation of the narrative as fact.

Both of WfM and The Tempest.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

It's one thing to mention a villain as a potential looming threat from Act 1, it's another to have a present character later do a heel turn (tragic or planned betrayal). It's entirely different to first introduce them in the 3rd Act and have them do their villainous deeds in the 4th Act. They have no weight in the narrative, the audience has zero investment in them. That's the problem. Good villains are built by having the audience spend time with them or at least aware of them.

Elnora is the real villain of the series, because we've seen how devious she gets, and get why her goals are directly opposed to the protagonists'. Everyone else is just shallow and poorly founded "Greed."

Hey, I'm not arguing whether or not SAL is a good villain.

I'm arguing people who claimed that SAL came outta nowere with no hints or build up when facts show them otherwise.

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by ryllharu

You are wildly misinterpreting and twisting dialogue and objective plot points to project your (incorrect) interpretation of the narrative as fact.

Both of WfM and The Tempest.

I haven't read the full original play of the Tempest despite looking at it, but I read online dissertations about it and in depth Acts summaries once I learn WfM was based on it and I have yet to find one where Prospero isn't labelled as the protagonist. If you have one, please share it, that should be an interesting read.

And if you try to label the play antagonists, the sailors/Caliban are your options unless we count Alonso/Antonio for their past deeds against Prospero from what I've read in those dissertations.

I'm not quite sure what you think I'm twisting about it.

As for WfM, people are free to watch the show and interpret things the way they wants. Like last episode Prospera showed up beside Benerit HQ and waited for them to come inside to demands the missing units without discharging her gun once. That was the writer's choice. It can be plot contrivance or maybe it has meaning...

[alt_account]

Yes, IMO Prospera has never been a credible antagonist and Aerial even less so. The prologue and Cradle Planet short story ensured both of them were sympathetic from the beginning. Fundamentally, the idea of Suletta and Aerial ever seriously trying to fight each other never made sense -- although Suletta is the protagonist of Witch from Mercury, Eri/Aerial are the protagonist of the Ad Stella universe -- so conceptions of the plot where Eri ended up as the final antagonist were always complete nonsense.