To Aru Majutsu no Index - Character Discussion - Kamijo Touma

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by allfictions

I never understood people who don't get altruism.

Originally Posted by Darkmousy0198

I don't see any logic behind it. Why "sacrifice" something of mine for a stranger, if I don't get anything for it? To me it's like giving something up for no reason, since I
really don't get any satisfaction from it.

Have anyone ever sacrificed something for you without getting anything in return?

I've noticed that people who don't 'get' altruism are the ones who have never experienced it from strangers. Or at the very least, doesn't give it much thought when people sacrifice for them.

I'm not even talking about 'pure' altruism here- just tipping the scales towards "not worth it" from "worth it".

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Darkmousy0198

I don't see any logic behind it. Why "sacrifice" something of mine for a stranger, if I don't get anything for it? To me it's like giving something up for no reason, since I
really don't get any satisfaction from it.

Let me go the pure mathematician philosophical route that I so much love to embody:

Yes, the reasons everyone else gave are valid reasons for why you'd want to help other people and Touma partially seems to fit into this category.

At the same time, other people help others because it is meaningful. You can think about it like this:

1. Doing what you want to do is easy, and whatever you do that you want to do is normally very amazing/special.
2. Doing something other than your natural inclination lets you make choices and rise to a higher level emotionally/spiritually, and is thus more meaningful.
3. As Robert Frost said, some people take the road less traveled, because it usually ends up being more beautiful.

Many times in life doing something for someone else might not immediately make you feel good, and maybe it's scary, but by doing so, by sacrificing yourself or by being willing to sacrifice yourself for someone else, you are doing something meaningful with your life that isn't boring or mundane.

This for a lot of people is a good enough reason to help others.

Dr.'s though and firefighters and the like are more like Touma and are more genuine, though you can feel both ways at once.

Personally, I tend to straggle both lines. I like taking the hard path with most things I do (I love meaning... ) but at the same time, I do want to help other people, and do not want to see them suffer.

The other big thing people haven't really pointed out is that Touma is the way he is because of his misfortune. It's the fact that he gets so unlucky all of the time that gives him the opportunity to decide to save other people. Maybe he wasn't always like he was now, but after his friends/others got unlucky and he was stabbed by someone, he wanted to try to help other people. We still don't know his backstory pre-memory loss.

I hope we find out what it is eventually, because it might shed even more about his personality and about Imagine Breaker.

Also, general consensus shows that empathically, the reason people help others who suffer is that they identify themselves with that other person's situation and see themselves in it and wouldn't want it to happen to themselves, and so they do something to help the other person, because the other person is also a rational agent.

[Draco Spirit]

Originally Posted by dniv

Let me go the pure mathematician philosophical route that I so much love to embody:

Yes, the reasons everyone else gave are valid reasons for why you'd want to help other people and Touma partially seems to fit into this category.

At the same time, other people help others because it is meaningful. You can think about it like this:

1. Doing what you want to do is easy, and whatever you do that you want to do is normally very amazing/special.
2. Doing something other than your natural inclination lets you make choices and rise to a higher level emotionally/spiritually, and is thus more meaningful.
3. As Robert Frost said, some people take the road less traveled, because it usually ends up being more beautiful.

Many times in life doing something for someone else might not immediately make you feel good, and maybe it's scary, but by doing so, by sacrificing yourself or by being willing to sacrifice yourself for someone else, you are doing something meaningful with your life that isn't boring or mundane.

This for a lot of people is a good enough reason to help others.

Dr.'s though and firefighters and the like are more like Touma and are more genuine, though you can feel both ways at once.

Personally, I tend to straggle both lines. I like taking the hard path with most things I do (I love meaning... ) but at the same time, I do want to help other people, and do not want to see them suffer.

The other big thing people haven't really pointed out is that Touma is the way he is because of his misfortune. It's the fact that he gets so unlucky all of the time that gives him the opportunity to decide to save other people. Maybe he wasn't always like he was now, but after his friends/others got unlucky and he was stabbed by someone, he wanted to try to help other people. We still don't know his backstory pre-memory loss.

I hope we find out what it is eventually, because it might shed even more about his personality and about Imagine Breaker.

Also, general consensus shows that empathically, the reason people help others who suffer is that they identify themselves with that other person's situation and see themselves in it and wouldn't want it to happen to themselves, and so they do something to help the other person, because the other person is also a rational agent.

It really is interesting to speculate about why Touma is Touma isn't it?

I think NT9 is likely the most enlightening book on the subject for a while. The fact Touma strongly values the bonds of friendship he's earned through his deeds suggest to me that part of the reason he clenches his fist is because he feels a need to prove that, despite his misfortune, he is worthy of being loved.

The other reason seems to be that to Touma not trying to save someone is something he can't live with. He can't walk away, to walk away is to be part of that misfortune and inflict suffering on another, and Touma rather try to do the right thing and screw up then let a wrong thing pass.

That my take on him anyway!

[LG-MAX]

taking into account that part of the NT 9.

Of course it bothers me! Even if it’s meaningless and no one else cares who it is as long as they’re saved, it still bothers me!! I coughed up blood and shed tears to somehow make my way along that path, but Othinus easily did it like it was just a game! She stole everything from me!! She stole everything I had – even the path I walked down

I think we can also think that save people for Touma makes him feel good. something that helps his ego. all this makes it more interesting. and taking into account a possible flashback, it is easy to imagine how would the personality of Touma if he ever crossed paths with people who needed help, but did not helped them because he would not gain anything, it would probably be a grouchy person.

We urgently need a volume focused on the past, we only know that he had a shitty life. perhaps appear the former User's imagine breaker.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Eh? I don't think we need to actually look at the most recent book to know that.

“Hoo. Well, discussing it any more won’t help anything. So what were you fighting for, Touma?”

“Hm?” Kamijou said to check what Index had said before responding. “For myself.”

Originally Posted by alexandros_19

"Reason" exists for the sole purpose of not being "unreasonable"

“What’s all this about reasons and justifications? I don’t need any of that!! Am I not allowed to stand up to fight without a logical motive!? Index is suffering. She can’t show me her usual smile. I’ll fight with just that!! That’s enough! I’m not thinking up any excuses!! I’m not gonna spend any more time worrying and worrying about finding a logical reason!!”


“I’m not protecting her because that’s the right thing to do!! I’m not saving her because it says to in the rule book and I therefore have no choice!! I’m doing it because I want to!! So there’s no reason for me to stop!! There’s no need to argue about whether it’s right or not and there’s no need to search for material to use in that argument!!”

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Eh? I don't think we need to actually look at the most recent book to know that.






“What’s all this about reasons and justifications? I don’t need any of that!! Am I not allowed to stand up to fight without a logical motive!? Index is suffering. She can’t show me her usual smile. I’ll fight with just that!! That’s enough! I’m not thinking up any excuses!! I’m not gonna spend any more time worrying and worrying about finding a logical reason!!”


“I’m not protecting her because that’s the right thing to do!! I’m not saving her because it says to in the rule book and I therefore have no choice!! I’m doing it because I want to!! So there’s no reason for me to stop!! There’s no need to argue about whether it’s right or not and there’s no need to search for material to use in that argument!!”

Though until this volume those things could mean he was being idealistic/meaningful rather than just empathetic and couldn't stand what was happening in front of his eyes.

Even if idealism or meaning somewhat impacts his motivations, after NT 9 it's pretty clear that his empathy towards other people (he can't stand them suffering) is the main motivation for his actions, and not because he thinks something wrong isn't right.

Aleister and Aiwass mentioned this as well, but I didn't really get it that clearly until it was brutally spelled out here.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by dniv

Though until this volume those things could mean he was being idealistic/meaningful rather than just empathetic and couldn't stand what was happening in front of his eyes.

Even if idealism or meaning somewhat impacts his motivations, after NT 9 it's pretty clear that his empathy towards other people (he can't stand them suffering) is the main motivation for his actions, and not because he thinks something wrong isn't right.

Clarify for me, in under 75 words, what is your difference between motivation by idealism and motivation by empathy and why you would ever doubt that he doesn't empathy towards people?

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Clarify for me, in under 75 words, what is your difference between motivation by idealism and motivation by empathy and why you would ever doubt that he doesn't empathy towards people?

The question was which one was more powerful of an emotion, not whether he was one or the other.

The difference between the two in my words is that he could have been saving other people because he didn't like injustice. Empathy-wise, he did what he did simply because he didn't want to see it happen. The first reason has to do with "justice" and saving the world like most shonen protags and the second one has to do with just wanting to help other people out without some "glorious" reason to do so.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by dniv

The question was which one was more powerful of an emotion, not whether he was one or the other.

The difference between the two in my words is that he could have been saving other people because he didn't like injustice. Empathy-wise, he did what he did simply because he didn't want to see it happen. The first reason has to do with "justice" and saving the world like most shonen protags and the second one has to do with just wanting to help other people out without some "glorious" reason to do so.

Even though Kamijou has always said "I don't need a reason to save people." ? Even after his fist fight with Thor you still didn't believe him until NT9 ?

[LG-MAX]

Kamijou does what he thinks is right, not necessarily what should be right, to own Will-san pointed out that you could find positive and negative points in the project level 6, but he did not care about that.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Changing the subject a bit- I just remembered something when I saw this--

The first reason has to do with "justice" and saving the world like most shonen protags--

Out of curiosity, who do you guys picture in your heads when you think of shounen protagonists the fight for Justice and saving the world? Honest question.

[Kenju of the Right]

there aren't actually much
others have a dream
others want to protect their friends
some just have a job

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Even though Kamijou has always said "I don't need a reason to save people." ? Even after his fist fight with Thor you still didn't believe him until NT9 ?

That could just be a moral principle of his. One of these things is rational and the other is emotional. For one of these things, you are following your belief system. For the other one you are appealing to emotion and sympathy towards others. (I had time to wake up/clarify my thoughts a bit after breakfast ).

So I wasn't really ever sure if he was doing what he was doing because he believed in some some sort of pristine world where everyone wants to help everyone else out fundamentally, or whether he just couldn't stand to see other people hurt.

Remember LN 22 pointed out that first part of his personality, so it was a bit confusing. NT made Kamijou develop into what I'd say now is a person who doesn't necessarily think that others have good intentions at their very core. Think about it, last volume Kamijou himself realized this is pretty false in a way. And he learned from it for the better while still retaining his ideal to help other people because he sees them in pain.

That's why this volume was kind of important, it changed his approach from being rational and emotional to being purely emotional, which is more interesting actually. I'm sure Kamijou doesn't believe in despicable people, because he still thinks people need reasons for what they do, but he is more willing to realize that some people can have such extreme reasons for doing what they are doing, that it isn't as simple as using logic/words.

This was the most telling quote:

Spoiler for NT 9 best part do not spoil yourself:

(Will) “So let’s think about this more simply /return. Let’s set aside all that confusing stuff like the morality and mystery surroundings human life /return.”

...

"Of course it bothers me! Even if it’s meaningless and no one else cares who it is as long as they’re saved, it still bothers me!!..."
.................................................. .................................................. .................................................. ...
Choosing to be destroyed here was likely the most overwhelmingly right decision in the history of the world, and Kamijou Touma was an absolute evil for fighting against it for his own hopes and desires that he refused to abandon.
But…

“I want to…”

“It may be conceited and it may not make anyone else happy, but I want to go back…”

Some might have called it evil.
But these were the tiny feelings of a normal high school boy. They were horribly wretched, pathetic, and worthless, but this was the true voice of his exposed heart.
The girl narrowed her eyes slightly.
He simply could not abandon that desire.
Even though he knew it would bring misfortune to others, he could not let go.
And the girl did not think it was a bad thing. In fact, if he had easily given up based on documents filled with systematic measurements, she would have been angry.
Yes.
She had actually been sulking up until now.
It was a very human thing to do.
.................................................. .........
They would fully enjoy this battle of individuals for individuals and by individuals.

Bingo.

Now while this may be the ultimate sign of a "shonenish protagonist" like with Naruto talking to Sasuke, Guild arts talking to Natsu, + so on... I'd say it is very different in this case.

This is because Touma is actually the exact opposite of what a "shonenish protagonist" would be like for thinking this way. While in fact it seems that most Shonen protagonists act based on their emotions, it is in fact always the opposite. They act based on rational morals which classify certain things as good and certain things as evil. They don't act based on how they feel about things, unless they think that what they are doing is the most "absolute justice" in the world.

Take Dragon Ball Z as the paragon of this phenomenon. Goku who embodies "good" is fighting against those who embody "evil" like in Zoroastrianism. But what Touma himself now feels when he makes choices isn't that he even seeks for some meaningless word/ideal like justice, but rather he wants to do what he feels is right to him, and that's it!

While it was true that Touma wanted to help other people because of his feelings, he also had the belief that what he was doing was always right. Kamachi deconstructed this in all of NT especially starting with NT 4 in Baggage City, and then his complete blue-screen of death with Thor. In NT 7, Touma realized that other types of heroes exist which further critiqued his idea of what might be absolute justice, with the excessive amount of heroes, and the total arbitrariness of the "just" things the "heroes" were doing as a result of Agitate Halation. In NT 9, Touma finally was completely broken and his personality changed fundamentally.

Touma has become now like what Luffy became after fighting CP 9. Though the main difference I see between the way Oda and Kamachi are handling this theme is that Luffy's actions are morally irresponsible while Touma's are definitely not. Also, Luffy is always "good" while Touma isn't especially given what happened in NT 9.

So I see the big difference in character after that long explanation is that Touma appeals to emotion, and not to justice anymore. And that's a huge difference because emotion is one of the best answers to "Nihilism" which was kind of the point of NT 9 in a way with what Othinus showed him.

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Changing the subject a bit- I just remembered something when I saw this--



Out of curiosity, who do you guys picture in your heads when you think of shounen protagonists the fight for Justice and saving the world? Honest question.

So yeah, this is true. But at the same time, given the plot armor of the story being about them either achieving or not achieving this dream/whatever, they're in the right.

In this case, even while Touma is the protagonist... IB is his plot-armor, not his morality. Kamachi, Aleister, even Touma have gone as far as clarifying that he's not necessarily just, which is why this is so much more interesting to me than everything else. He's very compelling even when he's not "just," in a way that's a very very dangerous sort of Charisma. But he's also genuine unlike many charismatic people, which makes it even more compelling.

In many Shonen manga, they just have a life goal, and this goal is seen as an amazing thing, and the story shows how this endeavor/pursuit is something that should be appreciated (which is why Shonen manga is a good tool for being introduced to cool new ideas), but once again, the difference here is that Touma doesn't want to achieve some dream he doesn't have normally, he just wants to return to normal... It's the inversion of an amazing dream, because in almost all cases normalcy is the death of an amazing dream. This irony is why Index with Touma is so special : the mundane is celebrated because in fact it is better than what you think it is.

[WiliamZ0]

Originally Posted by dniv

That could just be a moral principle of his. One of these things is rational and the other is emotional. For one of these things, you are following your belief system. For the other one you are appealing to emotion and sympathy towards others. (I had time to wake up/clarify my thoughts a bit after breakfast ).

So I wasn't really ever sure if he was doing what he was doing because he believed in some some sort of pristine world where everyone wants to help everyone else out fundamentally, or whether he just couldn't stand to see other people hurt.

Remember LN 22 pointed out that first part of his personality, so it was a bit confusing. NT made Kamijou develop into what I'd say now is a person who doesn't necessarily think that others have good intentions at their very core. Think about it, last volume Kamijou himself realized this is pretty false in a way. And he learned from it for the better while still retaining his ideal to help other people because he sees them in pain.

That's why this volume was kind of important, it changed his approach from being rational and emotional to being purely emotional, which is more interesting actually. I'm sure Kamijou doesn't believe in despicable people, because he still thinks people need reasons for what they do, but he is more willing to realize that some people can have such extreme reasons for doing what they are doing, that it isn't as simple as using logic/words.

This was the most telling quote:

Spoiler for NT 9 best part do not spoil yourself:

Bingo.

Now while this may be the ultimate sign of a "shonenish protagonist" like with Naruto talking to Sasuke, Guild arts talking to Natsu, + so on... I'd say it is very different in this case.

This is because Touma is actually the exact opposite of what a "shonenish protagonist" would be like for thinking this way. While in fact it seems that most Shonen protagonists act based on their emotions, it is in fact always the opposite. They act based on rational morals which classify certain things as good and certain things as evil. They don't act based on how they feel about things, unless they think that what they are doing is the most "absolute justice" in the world.

Take Dragon Ball Z as the paragon of this phenomenon. Goku who embodies "good" is fighting against those who embody "evil" like in Zoroastrianism. But what Touma himself now feels when he makes choices isn't that he even seeks for some meaningless word/ideal like justice, but rather he wants to do what he feels is right to him, and that's it!

While it was true that Touma wanted to help other people because of his feelings, he also had the belief that what he was doing was always right. Kamachi deconstructed this in all of NT especially starting with NT 4 in Baggage City, and then his complete blue-screen of death with Thor. In NT 7, Touma realized that other types of heroes exist which further critiqued his idea of what might be absolute justice, with the excessive amount of heroes, and the total arbitrariness of the "just" things the "heroes" were doing as a result of Agitate Halation. In NT 9, Touma finally was completely broken and his personality changed fundamentally.

Touma has become now like what Luffy became after fighting CP 9. Though the main difference I see between the way Oda and Kamachi are handling this theme is that Luffy's actions are morally irresponsible while Touma's are definitely not. Also, Luffy is always "good" while Touma isn't especially given what happened in NT 9.

So I see the big difference in character after that long explanation is that Touma appeals to emotion, and not to justice anymore. And that's a huge difference because emotion is one of the best answers to "Nihilism" which was kind of the point of NT 9 in a way with what Othinus showed him.




So yeah, this is true. But at the same time, given the plot armor of the story being about them either achieving or not achieving this dream/whatever, they're in the right.

In this case, even while Touma is the protagonist... IB is his plot-armor, not his morality. Kamachi, Aleister, even Touma have gone as far as clarifying that he's not necessarily just, which is why this is so much more interesting to me than everything else. He's very compelling even when he's not "just," in a way that's a very very dangerous sort of Charisma. But he's also genuine unlike many charismatic people, which makes it even more compelling.

In many Shonen manga, they just have a life goal, and this goal is seen as an amazing thing, and the story shows how this endeavor/pursuit is something that should be appreciated (which is why Shonen manga is a good tool for being introduced to cool new ideas), but once again, the difference here is that Touma doesn't want to achieve some dream he doesn't have normally, he just wants to return to normal... It's the inversion of an amazing dream, because in almost all cases normalcy is the death of an amazing dream. This irony is why Index with Touma is so special : the mundane is celebrated because in fact it is better than what you think it is.

excellent preach

[Kenju of the Right]

to point out tho

Take Dragon Ball Z as the paragon of this phenomenon. Goku who embodies "good" is fighting against those who embody "evil" like in Zoroastrianism.

not entirely, it doesnt matter how dangerous Goku will risk his friends getting hurt and killed in order to get a good fight

Also, Luffy is always "good" while Touma isn't especially given what happened in NT 9.

nah, Luffy is a pirate they don't care
one of the reasons alot of people like Luffy is that he doesn't consider himself or his crew good or bad or heroes because theyre pirates and they get what they want

[dniv]

Originally Posted by Kenju of the Right

to point out tho

not entirely, it doesnt matter how dangerous Goku will risk his friends getting hurt and killed in order to get a good fight


nah, Luffy is a pirate they don't care
one of the reasons alot of people like Luffy is that he doesn't consider himself or his crew good or bad or heroes because theyre pirates and they get what they want

That's why I said he was morally irresponsible. He thinks what he's doing is fine.

From what you said, it's why OP is one of my favorite series, just behind FT, but it doesn't nearly compared even close to Index in any way shape or form except length from my POV even if it's better than most everything else...

Yeah, Goku loves fighting people, but a large part of how he did things is being the hero of the earth, which is why he got to keep his body and keep on training, and meet the grand kai... and yada yada yada... it was about how special Goku is and why he should get his way. (DBZ is one of my favorite series of all time from when I was younger, but that's just because it's probably the best at doing what was being done at that time, now everyone's trying to invert what DBZ did in fear of being accused of copying it which is why a lot of people say there are other things better than DBZ... well sure, if you copy a story and build on it, of course it'll be better...... )

Okay my examples weren't the best examples ever I picked what are commonly known as the two best shonen series main characters to illustrate my point, but the point is that they are the exception to the rule I said and that's why they're pretty well liked.

Touma isn't an exception to the rule, he just destroys the rule's illusion.

[KeiWaiYu]

Quick question! And I apologize if this is a wrong thread for this.

Why did Touma's mother Shiina call him with a san suffix? It feels kind of weird...

On another note... can Touma really advance grade or even graduate high school at the rate he is going?

Oh, and sorry that I kinda appear out of nowhere....

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by KeiWaiYu

Quick question! And I apologize if this is a wrong thread for this.

Why did Touma's mother Shiina call him with a san suffix? It feels kind of weird...

On another note... can Touma really advance grade or even graduate high school at the rate he is going?

Oh, and sorry that I kinda appear out of nowhere....

It's a mother thing, don't think too much about it But no real reason, it's sounds a bit teasing to me, like pat your head yes you're a big boy now.

At this rate? Probably not lol. By my count he skipped a little more than a month of school.

[KeiWaiYu]

Wow, he actually skipped a month worth of school? Now that I think about it, Kamijou-san is a very busy person isn't he? Many things happen in about.. half a year or so? Sorry my grasp of this series timeline is kinda wonky....

Another thing. Does his parent know about his tardiness.? I mean, normally isn't just skipping about a week worth of school will result in parent's inquiry from school? or Academy City didn't work like that?

I think Touma really needs a vacation

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by KeiWaiYu

Wow, he actually skipped a month worth of school? Now that I think about it, Kamijou-san is a very busy person isn't he? Many things happen in about.. half a year or so? Sorry my grasp of this series timeline is kinda wonky....

Another thing. Does his parent know about his tardiness.? I mean, normally isn't just skipping about a week worth of school will result in parent's inquiry from school? or Academy City didn't work like that?

I think Touma really needs a vacation

From October 17 to mid November, basically the time from England back to the Ichihanaran.

The main story of Index starts near the end of August, so about 4 months have passed.

Unknown, but we assume they don't know.