Gundam Seed Destiny

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

While the rise of the Atlantic Federation extremist was never portrayed, it's sort of obvious how it came to pass. They probably painted PLANT as the boogeyman responsible for all their ills (which isn't that far from the truth), and themselves as the only solution.

And that just shows how Naturals were portrayed in the series as weak/ignorant/intollerant.

SEED somehow seemed to be more balanced in thisaspect to me. I don't know, maybe it is because there are fewer coordinators roaming around on screen and a good deal of the show focuses on Kira and the Naturals that surround him

On the other note, I think that Cagalli turned out quite well by the end of Destiny. She certainly showed the potential to be a very good leader (and probably much better than Uzumi).

Yeah. Too bad it was this late. It almost seemed as if the creators tried to cover up their failure in maintaining a good image of some of the characters. Like Cagalli almost marrying Yuuna or letting her country fall into dirty hands of Roma family. Or Athrun who is supposed to be a super-ace but after showing some skill in zaku during Junius 7 mission he did not do much until the end when he pwned Shinn.

I'm not really a Gundam fan, so it shouldn't be surprising that our tastes differ.

Hell yeah

---

As for Dullindal, I think that his character was supposed to be ambiguous in terms of character, but in the end turned up to be a bit more villanous. There were just too many "hints" that made the viewer easily succumb to Lacus and co.'s conviction that he was actually the bad guy. I won't mention the things you all guys already said, but tthere is also this notion that he might have approved Jibril's destructive tendencies (including

Spoiler for plot:

the destruction of Aprilius)

. He used him. It occured to me that Dully is a villain the moment he

Spoiler for Dully:

uttered "Good bye and thank you" after the Blue Cosmos leader was killed by Rey. You don't say such thing to a guy that just wiped out the entire colony if you do'nt have villainous tendencies.

If his character was "lightened up", i.e. was not hinted to be such a villain I agree he'd be a good counterbalance to Lacus even on moral terms.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by winter45

I would like to point out something here.. As wingdarkness has already pointed out that there was no evidence presented if Dully is the executioner on this.

You mean other than Durandal being the only logical possibility? Do we really have to rehash this argument again?

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

And that just shows how Naturals were portrayed in the series as weak/ignorant/intollerant.

It can be argued that, in crisis situations, people are willing to be led by a party that claims to offer answers. There are numerous examples of this throughout history.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Yeah. Too bad it was this late. It almost seemed as if the creators tried to cover up their failure in maintaining a good image of some of the characters. Like Cagalli almost marrying Yuuna or letting her country fall into dirty hands of Roma family. Or Athrun who is supposed to be a super-ace but after showing some skill in zaku during Junius 7 mission he did not do much until the end when he pwned Shinn.

That's sort of the point of their characters in Destiny. That Cagalli was a weak leader who learned and grew throughout the series, and that Athrun couldn't fight to his potential as long as he was fighting for the bad guy. I'll admit that I think that it was a terrible idea for him to take up Durandal's offer in the first place.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

As for Dullindal, I think that his character was supposed to be ambiguous in terms of character, but in the end turned up to be a bit more villanous.

Not really. I think that Durandal was clearly meant to be a villain from the get go. He was merely supposed to look like a decent person at the beginning. Heck, there's even people who claimed that they were certain he was a villain the moment he showed up.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

If his character was "lightened up", i.e. was not hinted to be such a villain I agree he'd be a good counterbalance to Lacus even on moral terms.

He'd sort of have to be insane to think that the Destiny Plan was a good idea. And in fact, he didn't think that most people would accept it whole cloth - that's why he had Meer around to soften the message.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

You mean other than Durandal being the only logical possibility? Do we really have to rehash this argument again?.

Do you have any solid evidence or proof that was shown in destiny to prove that it is Dully that commited these act of assasination thats not from speculation, guesses or connecting the dots which happens to fit the profile? If so i would love to hear it pls

You do realise if your going to accuse someone for acts of violence you are going to require evidence and facts right? No good taking logical guesses and preach it likes if its the word of god if you have nothing to support your accusations... And this is exactly what lacus and Kira did. Take a logical guess and assume already its dully and somehow patheticly in unrealistic manner convinced Athrun with no evidence, proof or facts. This is so lame even for RL standards.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by winter45

Do you have any solid evidence or proof that was shown in destiny to prove that it is Dully that commited these act of assasination thats not from speculation, guesses or connecting the dots which happens to fit the profile? If so i would love to hear it pls

It isn't really a matter of "solid" evidence that's damning; it's the dearth of any plausible alternatives. If you really want to discuss this further, I suggest you do so here, and just post a link in this thread.

Originally Posted by winter45

You do realise if your going to accuse someone for acts of violence you are going to require evidence and facts right?

Nope. That's only true in the case of courts of law. In the real world, incomplete information is a fact of life, and only fools wait until there's absolute proof.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It can be argued that, in crisis situations, people are willing to be led by a party that claims to offer answers. There are numerous examples of this throughout history.

Of course. It is always like that. But instead of showing Naturals as people with really ideologically convincing answers (like that of Dullindal), they relied on discrimination/(unfair)retaliation. It is a pitiful image, I must say. Too pitiful for the side that supposes to be one of the two clashing powers. This, combined with the fact that we did not have any really powerful Natural MS pilot somehow made me feel that there was some kind of lack of balance in the show. A bad "feng shui" of the series' composition :P:P:P

Originally Posted by 4Tran

That's sort of the point of their characters in Destiny. That Cagalli was a weak leader who learned and grew throughout the series, and that Athrun couldn't fight to his potential as long as he was fighting for the bad guy. I'll admit that I think that it was a terrible idea for him to take up Durandal's offer in the first place.

As for Cagalli... maybe. But still she seemed to be a bit... how to say this.. discontinued character. It's like she was a much more different person than in the previous season. I often hear people asking "where is this strong-willed tomboy girl from SEED"? I am one of those voices. As for Athrun, I think that he was just a clueless loser for, like 8/10 of the show. Had his highlights, but overally took too much screening time without much satisfaction of how he used this time...

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Not really. I think that Durandal was clearly meant to be a villain from the get go. He was merely supposed to look like a decent person at the beginning. Heck, there's even people who claimed that they were certain he was a villain the moment he showed up.

True. But his "Utopia" concept he called "Destiny" was interesting enough to make him at least a good, strong villain. Not the one that'd make ridiculous mistakes and surround himself with weak-minded trusties.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

He'd sort of have to be insane to think that the Destiny Plan was a good idea. And in fact, he didn't think that most people would accept it whole cloth - that's why he had Meer around to soften the message.

Of course he did. But he still saw the chance to make the world "better". And he almost did it. It is not the fact that he lost that bothers me. It is the fact HOW he lost...

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Of course. It is always like that. But instead of showing Naturals as people with really ideologically convincing answers (like that of Dullindal), they relied on discrimination/(unfair)retaliation. It is a pitiful image, I must say.

While it's not a very pleasant image, it's not exactly a very foreign one either.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

As for Cagalli... maybe. But still she seemed to be a bit... how to say this.. discontinued character. It's like she was a much more different person than in the previous season. I often hear people asking "where is this strong-willed tomboy girl from SEED"?

The Cagalli in Seed was quite different from the Cagalli in Destiny, but they also fulfilled totally different roles. In Seed, she mostly acted only on her own behalf, and there was always someone more experienced to temper her excesses and to ease her insecurities. Cagalli could carry herself much as she normally would.

In Destiny, she was thrust into a position that's outside of her comfort zone. All of her father's nonmilitary advisors had apparently died with him, so Cagalli settled on placing her trust on the Seirans. They were more interested in keeping her under their control rather than shaping an effective leader, so it's not too surprising that she stayed insecure, naive, and hesitant. I rather liked the way she grew into her role by the end of the show.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

As for Athrun, I think that he was just a clueless loser for, like 8/10 of the show.

I'm sure that Athrun would be the first to agree with you.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

True. But his "Utopia" concept he called "Destiny" was interesting enough to make him at least a good, strong villain. Not the one that'd make ridiculous mistakes and surround himself with weak-minded trusties.

As far as I can tell, aside from thinking the Destiny Plan was a good idea in the first place, Durandal didn't make any major mistakes. Rey wasn't his henchman; he was his confidant. Durandal needed someone to reassure him that his plan was a good idea, and that all the evils he had to perform in order to enact it were necessary. That's why it was so devastating to him when Rey finally turned on him.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Of course he did. But he still saw the chance to make the world "better". And he almost did it. It is not the fact that he lost that bothers me. It is the fact HOW he lost...

The reason Durandal lost was because he couldn't eliminate Lacus. His original plan was probably to not announce the Destiny Plan at all. It's more likely that he was going to ease its provisions into place over a long period of time. With "Lacus'" soothing voice to convince the world that it was a good idea, his chances of success was fairly decent. But this all falls apart as long as Lacus was still alive. She could not only expose his lies, but she could also leech away his powerbase and attack him where he was most vulnerable.


I'll add the stuff from the other thread here:

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

We had that and it was a weak duo. One mind-rape made by Kira supposed to mess up everything Dullindal built and raised within Rey throughout years. WTF?

Rey's character wasn't conveyed anywhere nearly as well as it should have been, but I don't think that this was necessarily as stupid as you may think. Rey had probably had his doubts about Durandal's plans for a long time, and Kira was just the trigger that sent him over the edge.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Why? There'd be tragic conflict, two sides. Eventually, Lacus' side might win, but for bigger price. Destiny had a great chance to be exceptional and even more intense than SEED but they messed it all up.

The main difference would be to make the show into much more of a philosophical, behind the scenes piece of speculative fiction. I rather like that kind of thing, but Gundam TV shows are about showing off giant robots doing cool things. Complex strategies and geopolitics and introspective storytelling don't really suit the overall structure very well. As it is, we have a story where the protagonist was Durandal; someone trying to establish a fanciful dream by exploiting his enemies. And Lacus was his main antagonist because she could attack his strategies in a way no one else could.

I think that one of the reasons why so many people dislike Destiny is because it's just so different, despite being couched in familiar terms. When we see a supposed "main pilot", we expect him to be the protagonist, and to have the story revolve around him. Likewise, Destiny is roughly analogous to Zeta, and even today, you'll see a lot of people who claim that the former is just a rehash of the other. Look any deeper into it, and it's readily apparent that they're totally different.

[winter45]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

It isn't really a matter of "solid" evidence that's damning; it's the dearth of any plausible alternatives. If you really want to discuss this further, I suggest you do so here, and just post a link in this thread..

Alright 4Tran i might want to bring the importance of making sure you have facts before you start accusing. Lets just say it wasnt Dully that sent the assasination team, and the whole scenario is fabricated to indicate it is Dully. But kira and lacus decided it was him who did it... now alot of people just died coz of poor intel and lack of proof, and evidence. Coz they went under of the assumption it was Dully with lack to none information. Given the severity you so want to make sure you dont F**KUP with your sources of information. I hope this gives you an insight the importance of ascertaining information before you start to accuse and later use deadly force. You wanna make sure its the right guy before people start getting hurt.

Back in Afganistan people got hurt coz of lack of information and as result civilians and high ranking officials died due to someones lack of proof and assumed by using logical guesses it was safe to commence deadly operations. Ive personally have dealt on picking up dead bodies coz someone decided taking a guess was an apropriate form of deciding what course of action to take.

So as you can see what may happen coz someone totally screwed up and innocent people and/or non participating party had to pay the price. Life is preciouse and ive learnt to appreciate it even more now that ive seen some horrors. Its sad that kira and co went thru a war and still havnt realised if you are not 100% accurate, more lives will be taken away.

Now Fortuantly for Kira and Co everything played out right, but never the less they acted on educated guesses and lack of real Intel of who is behind these schemes. As wingdarkness pointed out a peice of scrap of paper with very limited Text is not evidence or proof to pinpoint at a particular individual who may be behind it all.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Nope. That's only true in the case of courts of law. In the real world, incomplete information is a fact of life, and only fools wait until there's absolute proof.

Now that you have read above, you should now know im not refering to court of law but the potential outcome of violence due to lack of accurate informaton. With my example above im sure that 100% proof would of saved lives as well reduced injuries. May be fools for taking longer but at least it would of mean i wouldnt have to fill up bodybags.

But either way i still wouldnt been convinced if kira told me by word of mouth that Dully is behind the assasination without some form of evidence. Talk is cheap

[D-KLAC]

yet there is still something bothering me how come the u.s. tv has yet to show GSD?

well here are the REAL reasons why it has yet to be shown

1.edits & censors (yeah blame FCC for that)
2.languages (too much da-m, sh-i, bi-ch, ba-rd, he-l, etc)
3.scenes (yeah the extended lab, shinn on stella's rack, lacus' ribbon, etc hide the little kids)

besides the u.s. tv has no idea about GS series because it's really Gundam SEED series incorporated elements from popular live-action television dramas. Instead of focusing on the robot action, the show focused more on the characters.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

yet there is still something bothering me how come the u.s. tv has yet to show GSD?

Gundam Seed did poorly on Cartoon Network, so everyone is reluctant to carry it. It was the latest in a string of commercial failures for Gundam broadcasts, so it's unlikely for any Gundam show to show up on American television anytime soon with the possible exception of Gundam 00. If Gundam 00 does well on American television (and it's a very big if), then Destiny and other Gundam shows may show up as well.

Destiny did show up on Pay-per-View, but it probably did poorly there.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

While it's not a very pleasant image, it's not exactly a very foreign one either.


The Cagalli in Seed was quite different from the Cagalli in Destiny, but they also fulfilled totally different roles. In Seed, she mostly acted only on her own behalf, and there was always someone more experienced to temper her excesses and to ease her insecurities. Cagalli could carry herself much as she normally would.

In Destiny, she was thrust into a position that's outside of her comfort zone. All of her father's nonmilitary advisors had apparently died with him, so Cagalli settled on placing her trust on the Seirans. They were more interested in keeping her under their control rather than shaping an effective leader, so it's not too surprising that she stayed insecure, naive, and hesitant. I rather liked the way she grew into her role by the end of the show.


I'm sure that Athrun would be the first to agree with you.

I agree with everything you wrote here if it comes to facts, but not necessarily to personal evaluation. I can see that in this case we share only the opinion about Athrun.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

As far as I can tell, aside from thinking the Destiny Plan was a good idea in the first place, Durandal didn't make any major mistakes. Rey wasn't his henchman; he was his confidant. Durandal needed someone to reassure him that his plan was a good idea, and that all the evils he had to perform in order to enact it were necessary. That's why it was so devastating to him when Rey finally turned on him.

Such pragmatist may be indeed perceived by most people as evil and dangerous. But who knows, maybe Dullindal really believed that it'd really work. I can see his point, actually. It's a very totallitarian and harsh view of the perfect world. But I can see it's 'perfectness'. Now everything depends on the level of Dullindal's hipocrisy... But we would never know as he ultimately failed, not giving us a chance to see how would it be. Which is a good thing But also deprives us of the one obvious answer whether such world would ever work if it had a chance to start :P

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Rey's character wasn't conveyed anywhere nearly as well as it should have been, but I don't think that this was necessarily as stupid as you may think. Rey had probably had his doubts about Durandal's plans for a long time, and Kira was just the trigger that sent him over the edge.

Honestly? To me it appears as a cheap explanation. I'd prefer it much more if Rey was faithful to the end. OR had an opportunity to develop this regret throughout series and not turning 180 degrees around all of sudden in the final episode... To put it somply, in my opinion, it was just LAME.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The main difference would be to make the show into much more of a philosophical, behind the scenes piece of speculative fiction. I rather like that kind of thing, but Gundam TV shows are about showing off giant robots doing cool things. Complex strategies and geopolitics and introspective storytelling don't really suit the overall structure very well.

Hmm, I dunno. I think Gundam franchize is about versatility. We can find realistic shows like MS 8th team, teen soap romances as SEED and martial art-contest mock as G Gundam.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I think that one of the reasons why so many people dislike Destiny is because it's just so different, despite being couched in familiar terms. When we see a supposed "main pilot", we expect him to be the protagonist, and to have the story revolve around him. Likewise, Destiny is roughly analogous to Zeta, and even today, you'll see a lot of people who claim that the former is just a rehash of the other. Look any deeper into it, and it's readily apparent that they're totally different

Indeed, many say that it is a direct rip-off. Well, maybe many scenes and concepts are ripped-off. But the overall mood and theme is much more different. Not mentioning loads of details. So I basically agree here - Destiny is just too different from Zeta. BUT I like Destiny. It's just after SEED, which is my favorite Gundam show, I had quite high expectations. And this is what motivated me throughout our whole discussion: my disappointment with some elements and my urge to show what I'd change in the series to make it as good as I always wanted it to be And this kinda concludes my point.

[kiramuro]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Rey's character wasn't conveyed anywhere nearly as well as it should have been, but I don't think that this was necessarily as stupid as you may think. Rey had probably had his doubts about Durandal's plans for a long time, and Kira was just the trigger that sent him over the edge.

For this part I wished there was a Dostoevsky style psychoanalysis of Rey's inner struggle with his own short-lived destiny and his thoughts about Gil's plan. It would've clarified or at least made Kira's persuasions more palpable.

The main difference would be to make the show into much more of a philosophical, behind the scenes piece of speculative fiction. I rather like that kind of thing, but Gundam TV shows are about showing off giant robots doing cool things. Complex strategies and geopolitics and introspective storytelling don't really suit the overall structure very well. As it is, we have a story where the protagonist was Durandal; someone trying to establish a fanciful dream by exploiting his enemies. And Lacus was his main antagonist because she could attack his strategies in a way no one else could.

Agreed Destiny could've been much more but unfortunately its main demograph prevents that from happening.

I think that one of the reasons why so many people dislike Destiny is because it's just so different, despite being couched in familiar terms. When we see a supposed "main pilot", we expect him to be the protagonist, and to have the story revolve around him. Likewise, Destiny is roughly analogous to Zeta, and even today, you'll see a lot of people who claim that the former is just a rehash of the other. Look any deeper into it, and it's readily apparent that they're totally different.

I think it's likely that Shinn was planned to be the main protagonist but after a few episodes or so that role was given back to Kira.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Such pragmatist may be indeed perceived by most people as evil and dangerous. But who knows, maybe Dullindal really believed that it'd really work. I can see his point, actually. It's a very totallitarian and harsh view of the perfect world. But I can see it's 'perfectness'. Now everything depends on the level of Dullindal's hipocrisy... But we would never know as he ultimately failed, not giving us a chance to see how would it be. Which is a good thing But also deprives us of the one obvious answer whether such world would ever work if it had a chance to start :P

I believe he did think he'd work. Or at least, that he'd make it work. (Not in the fairy tale way his cartoon presented, but, you know, with the old totalitarian methods...) I also believe he thought that because he was insane. Not the howl-at-the-moon, wear-pants-on-his-head insane, so obvious it's practically harmless. But the insidious insane of having only a few crazy notions, and acting on them. "The Destiny Plan will work." "Ankh-Morporkh needs a king." That sort of things.

And he was smart enough for his delusions to be contagious, and to almost conquer the world.

Honestly? To me it appears as a cheap explanation. I'd prefer it much more if Rey was faithful to the end. OR had an opportunity to develop this regret throughout series and not turning 180 degrees around all of sudden in the final episode... To put it somply, in my opinion, it was just LAME.

Yeah. It's funny that it's Shinn and Luna, who were shown to have doubts, who stayed loyal to the end, while Rey, who was shown as pretty selfless in his faith in Gil, who decided Gil was wrong after all.

[D-KLAC]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Gundam Seed did poorly on Cartoon Network, so everyone is reluctant to carry it. It was the latest in a string of commercial failures for Gundam broadcasts, so it's unlikely for any Gundam show to show up on American television anytime soon with the possible exception of Gundam 00. If Gundam 00 does well on American television (and it's a very big if), then Destiny and other Gundam shows may show up as well.

Destiny did show up on Pay-per-View, but it probably did poorly there.

what?!

well maybe it's because of these reasons that i'm sayin

1.edits & censors (yeah blame FCC for that)
2.languages (too much da-m, sh-i, bi-ch, ba-rd, he-l, etc)
3.scenes (yeah the extended lab, shinn on stella's rack, lacus' ribbon, etc hide the little kids)

besides the phils was 1st to show GSD in english cause phils is GS fans area.

then it went canada but in u.s. just dvd oh come on cry me a river because the FCC will really SCREW the GSD like they did with GS in 04 hello the dumb "disco guns" remember that so blame it on FCC.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

I agree with everything you wrote here if it comes to facts, but not necessarily to personal evaluation. I can see that in this case we share only the opinion about Athrun.

That's okay. We have different tastes, so it's not surprising that we approach the characters differently as well. For what it's worth, I was initially was frustrated with Cagalli's character as well, and I wanted her to somehow break out of her funk.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Such pragmatist may be indeed perceived by most people as evil and dangerous. But who knows, maybe Dullindal really believed that it'd really work. I can see his point, actually. It's a very totallitarian and harsh view of the perfect world. But I can see it's 'perfectness'. Now everything depends on the level of Dullindal's hipocrisy...

Durandal isn't really a hypocrite; he's a true believer that what he was doing would end war. Moreover, he knew precisely how much resistance there would be to his solution, and how much suffering that it would impose. The problem is that the Destiny Plan was fatally flawed from the get go.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Honestly? To me it appears as a cheap explanation. I'd prefer it much more if Rey was faithful to the end. OR had an opportunity to develop this regret throughout series and not turning 180 degrees around all of sudden in the final episode... To put it somply, in my opinion, it was just LAME.

Yup, it's certainly possible to see it that way. I see it more as a thematic conclusion for Durandal's character arc: he finally gives up on his dream because his one true disciple repudiated it.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Hmm, I dunno. I think Gundam franchize is about versatility. We can find realistic shows like MS 8th team, teen soap romances as SEED and martial art-contest mock as G Gundam.

I'm not so sure that Gundam is as versatile as you may think. G Gundam came out almost fifteen years ago, and every other Gundam TV show is cut from the same cloth as Mobile Suit Gundam (with the exception of the poorly-received Turn A). Moreover, G Gundam itself is thematically very similar to the other TV shows. The OVAs can be quite different, but they're also very different format-wise from the TV shows as well.

What you're proposing would be very different structurally from any other Gundam work, and it might be simply too much change. The biggest issue is that it'll draw the attention away from the mobile suits, and that's a big no-no.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Indeed, many say that it is a direct rip-off. Well, maybe many scenes and concepts are ripped-off.

The truth is that those nods and homages play no important role in the show (with a single exception).

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

BUT I like Destiny. It's just after SEED, which is my favorite Gundam show, I had quite high expectations. And this is what motivated me throughout our whole discussion: my disappointment with some elements and my urge to show what I'd change in the series to make it as good as I always wanted it to be

I find that quite reasonable. For whatever reason, the creators decided to make the direct sequel to Seed very different from the original while keeping the same look. That approach was likely to lead to certain expectations. And since those expectations weren't meant to be met, viewers were bound to be disappointed - that's possibly why so many people liked the first half of the show, but hated the second half.

Originally Posted by kiramuro

For this part I wished there was a Dostoevsky style psychoanalysis of Rey's inner struggle with his own short-lived destiny and his thoughts about Gil's plan. It would've clarified or at least made Kira's persuasions more palpable.

I agree. Of the list of all the characters who stood to have more development in Destiny, Rey is at the very top.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Yeah. It's funny that it's Shinn and Luna, who were shown to have doubts, who stayed loyal to the end, while Rey, who was shown as pretty selfless in his faith in Gil, who decided Gil was wrong after all.

That makes a twisted sort of sense. Lunamaria isn't much of a deep thinker, so she's more likely to just go with the flow. Shinn is a new convert to Durandal's cause, and new converts generally have more fervor than most believers. On the other hand, Rey has had a lot of time to think about the Destiny Plan, so he's more likely to be able to see the flaws in it.

When the show first aired, I hoped that the person to turn on Durandal would have been Talia. It's a little too bad that she wasn't, and so she's number two on the aforementioned list, right behind Rey.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Durandal isn't really a hypocrite; he's a true believer that what he was doing would end war. Moreover, he knew precisely how much resistance there would be to his solution, and how much suffering that it would impose. The problem is that the Destiny Plan was fatally flawed from the get go.

Well, one would never know Though I have similar view of this character as you, I'm still aware of the fact that there is a percent of chance he might just turn out to be a big bad guy. Something like the main boss in the movie Equilibrium with Christian Bale After Rey's sudden betrayal everything is possible, I think

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I'm not so sure that Gundam is as versatile as you may think. G Gundam came out almost fifteen years ago, and every other Gundam TV show is cut from the same cloth as Mobile Suit Gundam (with the exception of the poorly-received Turn A). Moreover, G Gundam itself is thematically very similar to the other TV shows. The OVAs can be quite different, but they're also very different format-wise from the TV shows as well.

Well, the very existence of G Gundam, Turn A and SEED are proof of the diversity, I suppose. And the mere fact that although Destiny is so different in overall mood from Zeta but still manages to get good kit sales is one more example of how to do show that may have different targets but still generate interest in robots and boost decent gunpla sales.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

What you're proposing would be very different structurally from any other Gundam work, and it might be simply too much change. The biggest issue is that it'll draw the attention away from the mobile suits, and that's a big no-no.

I don't really see why it would draw attention from the mobile suits. Gundam SEED is a perfect example of a balanced focus on both character development and mechas. What I am proposing is just my vision of the way how to make Destiny better, less unclear and more interesting in terms of its characters and their roles in the overall story. I'd leave all the beautiful mecha designs as they are. It's just that their pilots would be much more interesting, hence maybe even boosting kit sales more. Just look at Dearka. Thanks to his side-plot Fukuda wrote additionally, he became a much more popular character. Popular enough to raise the sales of his mechas' gunpla.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The truth is that those nods and homages play no important role in the show (with a single exception).

Well, they do. To UC fans. To me was it was not important, just like to you, but I think it was just because the moment I started to watch the show, I haven't seen Zeta. Now I am after Zeta and I have to admit that many plot devices are direct rip-offs. But they are by no means lowering the quality of any of the two series, IMO.

---

And now something lighter:

I just noriced an interesting thing... The duo of Destiny - Rey and Shinn have similar names to those of the Evangelion girls:

Shinn ASUKA -> ASUKA Langley Soryu
REY Za Burell -> REI Ayanami

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, the very existence of G Gundam, Turn A and SEED are proof of the diversity, I suppose.

Turn A wasn't very commercially successful and G Gundam was a long time ago. I get the feeling that Sunrise is trying to make shows that replicate the feeling of the more successful ones.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

I don't really see why it would draw attention from the mobile suits. Gundam SEED is a perfect example of a balanced focus on both character development and mechas. What I am proposing is just my vision of the way how to make Destiny better, less unclear and more interesting in terms of its characters and their roles in the overall story.

Hmm... Maybe I'm reading what you're proposing wrong. Your idea seems to me as if it'd have to concentrate on strategy, politics and plans. This isn't something that's ever really been a focus for Gundam shows, and my apprehension is that it wouldn't fit within the existing framework very well. On the other hand, that's pretty much exactly what I want to see a Gundam show do one of these days.

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Now I am after Zeta and I have to admit that many plot devices are direct rip-offs.

Look more closely. Of all the elements lifted from Zeta, only a single one is more significant than minor stuff like the color of Akatsuki or "Alex Dino". That exception is the Stellar-Four connection, how her character affects Shinn, and the attendant details.

[Sir Dearka]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Turn A wasn't very commercially successful and G Gundam was a long time ago. I get the feeling that Sunrise is trying to make shows that replicate the feeling of the more successful ones.

Of course. But it is still trying to be diverse, appeal to the broader audience or a variety of audiences with variety of shows. That's how such giants as Sunrise do business. As CE has shown, it is possible to create the universe that is essentially much more different than UC but still reach considerable popularity. And I would not give an example of "my version of the show" without the conviction that it'd actually sell well and make Destiny better. My vision of the perfect sequel of SEED. You may call it a fan's fantasy

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Hmm... Maybe I'm reading what you're proposing wrong. Your idea seems to me as if it'd have to concentrate on strategy, politics and plans.

Yeah, you're reading it wrong. I never stated that those elements should overshadow the action and overall message of the series. The show heavy with political-strategy motiffs would be just plain boring to me.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

This isn't something that's ever really been a focus for Gundam shows, and my apprehension is that it wouldn't fit within the existing framework very well. On the other hand, that's pretty much exactly what I want to see a Gundam show do one of these days.

Well then, I want to see it, just like you, and hence I wrote it. I couldn't care less about political aspect of the show as long as it has cool characters and robots. BUT politics is always present in Gundam universe. It could be emphasized more or less depending on the series (UC, CE.. etc) but still... if it is present, it should at least presented decently. I think that the element of politics/planning etc plays a much greater role in Destiny than in SEED. And that's why I found much more mistakes in that field.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

Look more closely. Of all the elements lifted from Zeta, only a single one is more significant than minor stuff like the color of Akatsuki or "Alex Dino". That exception is the Stellar-Four connection, how her character affects Shinn, and the attendant details.

With this, I agree. And as I said, I don't mind any"rip-offs" from Zeta as they don't seem to be that important to me. To some Zeta-fanatics maybe. But not to me.

[lordgemini]

Originally Posted by Sir Dearka

Well, they do. To UC fans. To me was it was not important, just like to you, but I think it was just because the moment I started to watch the show, I haven't seen Zeta. Now I am after Zeta and I have to admit that many plot devices are direct rip-offs. But they are by no means lowering the quality of any of the two series, IMO.

Well, I am a Zeta fan, in fact my favorite gundams are in order, Zeta, MSG and Seed, so I take the comment like an open invitation to write , IMHO Seed Destiny is a bad anime, maybe the worst gundam, (not quite sure, ZZ was also one of the worst, but for a different reasons)

Don't misunderstand me , I don't mean that Seed destiny is the worst anime, only that between a good one and a bad one, I would decide that's a bad one.

But in fact, is not because the influence of the Zeta (Seed have more influence of the MSG and is in his own one of the best mecha animes I have seen ) , probably they rip-off the wrong aspects for the seed destiny (except the part of Stellar, that was one of the best scenes of the serie).

IMO, what's make Seed Destiny a bad (or if you prefer, not a good) anime is:

1)Too much nonsense tribute to UC: If you see Gundam Seed and don't have seen MSG, it doesn't matter, the serie stand alone and a great one, but if you see MSG, you discover a lot of details .
But Seed destiny use the same formula, but in a wrong way, the Alex Dino plot doesn't mean anything (except that Cagalli can't lie under pressure ) if you don't known the Quattro/Char plot of the Zeta. The use of Zakus of all the flavors only have a substancial meaning if you see Z , I love UC, but so much "fan service" don't make the series better neither for the CE fans and the UC fans

2) They use the same scenes over, and over, and over again (the flashback where we see the first blue cosmos attack against the musician is one of the favorites ).

3) They forget the most important part in Z, you almost not see anything about Amuro and Char is present like two thirds of the serie, the rest is only Camille, in Seed Destiny we see to much Kira (I like Kira in Seed, but in Seed Destiny, i don't know, maybe Rau take his soul to hell with him and leave only the "all goddie" part ).

4) Shin, i think he was a promise, I love his development, is so far yhe best character of Seed Destiny , until they stop his development, he known the horrors of war, then he became a monster, thinking that the way he fight will save the world (his smile after the battle of Gulnahan is one of my favorite parts), and then he only need a push to mature, to realize that he was like the ones who kill his parents, not a hero. But no, when they could (After all, he "kill" the sister of Luna Maria) they have already decide to give the main spot light to Kira.

5) The worst of all, gundam seed destiny is the direct continuation of gundam Seed, and they destroy all what they can of the original serie, in fact they seem to forgot all what happen in the last episodes (except the death of Rau and and Patrick) the death of Mwu, that Kira and Cagalli are brothers, the development of all the characters in those episodes, particulary Athuran.

That's the hinch of it, I know we love Seed, but Seed destiny no, Probably if they take the correct parts of Zeta (develope the young and new pilot, for example) the serie would be better

[Sir Dearka]

Spoiler for Everything lordgemini says:

Originally Posted by lordgemini

Well, I am a Zeta fan, in fact my favorite gundams are in order, Zeta, MSG and Seed, so I take the comment like an open invitation to write , IMHO Seed Destiny is a bad anime, maybe the worst gundam, (not quite sure, ZZ was also one of the worst, but for a different reasons)

Don't misunderstand me , I don't mean that Seed destiny is the worst anime, only that between a good one and a bad one, I would decide that's a bad one.

But in fact, is not because the influence of the Zeta (Seed have more influence of the MSG and is in his own one of the best mecha animes I have seen ) , probably they rip-off the wrong aspects for the seed destiny (except the part of Stellar, that was one of the best scenes of the serie).

IMO, what's make Seed Destiny a bad (or if you prefer, not a good) anime is:

1)Too much nonsense tribute to UC: If you see Gundam Seed and don't have seen MSG, it doesn't matter, the serie stand alone and a great one, but if you see MSG, you discover a lot of details .
But Seed destiny use the same formula, but in a wrong way, the Alex Dino plot doesn't mean anything (except that Cagalli can't lie under pressure ) if you don't known the Quattro/Char plot of the Zeta. The use of Zakus of all the flavors only have a substancial meaning if you see Z , I love UC, but so much "fan service" don't make the series better neither for the CE fans and the UC fans

2) They use the same scenes over, and over, and over again (the flashback where we see the first blue cosmos attack against the musician is one of the favorites ).

3) They forget the most important part in Z, you almost not see anything about Amuro and Char is present like two thirds of the serie, the rest is only Camille, in Seed Destiny we see to much Kira (I like Kira in Seed, but in Seed Destiny, i don't know, maybe Rau take his soul to hell with him and leave only the "all goddie" part ).

4) Shin, i think he was a promise, I love his development, is so far yhe best character of Seed Destiny , until they stop his development, he known the horrors of war, then he became a monster, thinking that the way he fight will save the world (his smile after the battle of Gulnahan is one of my favorite parts), and then he only need a push to mature, to realize that he was like the ones who kill his parents, not a hero. But no, when they could (After all, he "kill" the sister of Luna Maria) they have already decide to give the main spot light to Kira.

5) The worst of all, gundam seed destiny is the direct continuation of gundam Seed, and they destroy all what they can of the original serie, in fact they seem to forgot all what happen in the last episodes (except the death of Rau and and Patrick) the death of Mwu, that Kira and Cagalli are brothers, the development of all the characters in those episodes, particulary Athuran.

That's the hinch of it, I know we love Seed, but Seed destiny no, Probably if they take the correct parts of Zeta (develope the young and new pilot, for example) the serie would be better

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Except that I don't think Destiny is worst series ever. (From those I've watched, Turn A wase even worse, for instance) I even liked Destiny more than Wing (which did not built up any emotions in me). However, I think it's still thanks to the visuals mostly, and the fact that I was already familiar with the characters. But it still made Destiny a good show to watch. I was indeed disappointed, but it was rather because the show was not "perfect" and it turned out being just "good".

AND also, it was irrelevant to me whether they rippedoff anything from Zeta or not unless it was not kitsch. As for me, they could take nothing from Zeta and as well invent something themselves.

[lordgemini]

I pretty much agree with everything you said. Except that I don't think Destiny is worst series ever. (From those I've watched, Turn A wase even worse, for instance) I even liked Destiny more than Wing (which did not built up any emotions in me).

Hi sir dearka, sorry, I didn't mean to say that Destiny was the worst series ever, only the worst gundam (or maybe second worst).

AND also, it was irrelevant to me whether they rippedoff anything from Zeta or not unless it was not kitsch. As for me, they could take nothing from Zeta and as well invent something themselves.

Here I disagree with you a lot, the BEST part in all Destiny is the Stellar-Shin death sequence, maybe to you is irrelevant, but without it the serie lost a lot.