2012-02-16, 19:18 | Link #1102 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Which is what was frustrating to Taichi: from the POV of the last card, effort and talent had given him a slight advantage over Nishida, in that he knew what cards remained, but that wasn't enough to overcome the little bit of extra luck that Nishida got. What he realized later was that his defeat wasn't pure luck, because it wasn't just about the last card, but also about those which were read before. He just lacked the skill to not let it come to that. And I don't think you can say his tension made him lose. If anything, his resolve turned a 50/50 situation into a 60/40. |
|
2012-02-16, 19:48 | Link #1103 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
|
And to top it off, Nishida is overall the better player though his weakness is his mental endurance. Nishida was the mentally the more desperated one because he lost track of the cards and is getting by his superior skill and experience.
One thing I do think helped was that Nishida was also studying Taichi's expression, which would allow him to judge which card in time.
__________________
|
2012-02-17, 02:30 | Link #1104 | ||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
Quote:
|
||
2012-02-17, 12:44 | Link #1105 | ||
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
If the writers had wanted the scene to be only about luck, they would not have introduced the single syllable vs. second syllable card issue at the end. That is there to show that Taichi does not lose the final card due to the luck of the draw. The fact that Taichi knows that "The tail" is a single syllable card while Yusei does not is a clear advantage. Taichi's memorization strategy relies on securing just this edge, so presumably it is a significant, even decisive one. I wonder if I could ask anyone who has played karuta on this forum to comment on this? Quote:
Chihaya understands this. That is why she embraces Taichi at the end: she sees that she and Taichi are alike, and are carrying a burden of pressure that prevents them getting to Kana's higher level. And she figures out a way to get to that higher level, through team play, rather than Taichi's "let's everyone pursue their individual goals" strategy. See, Taichi is just like Chihaya in this regard: just as she relies too much on speed, he relies too much on himself. He leads the team, but he doesn't seem to learn from it. We have scenes of the other players learning from each other, but never Taichi. So the fact that he falls asleep just when Kana inspires Chihaya to this insight I think is no accident. The scene neatly allegorizes Taichi's situation: off by himself asleep, though surrounded by teammates who care for him, unable to hear the lesson that the way to the higher level he seeks is through the team, and not by his own efforts. I think Taichi is stuck. That put-down on Yusei was an uncomfortable reminder of those earlier incidents which earned him the term "coward." It will be interesting to see what it will take to make him wake up.
__________________
|
||
2012-02-17, 13:18 | Link #1106 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Quote:
However yes the last card was down to mostly luck. Of course it's not impossible for Taichi to have taken it but obviously with only 2 cards left (both on each side) whosever card is read has the clear advantage because you just have to put your hand down as soon as you hear the card is read. I also think saying Taichi only cares about his individual effort and not the team effort is unfair to Taichi. The fact of the matter is I don't see Nishida constantly trying to learn from others and he is also in it to win his matches (and cares very much) yet he still wins. Also you ignore the fact that Taichi does try to think about how Chihaya plays and is so quick at grabbing those one syllable cards (something that is obviously not a Taichi strength). That's not to say I don't think Taichi has some internal struggles to get over but I don't think it is group VS individual as I don't see how one needs to be more important than the other. Of course that doesn't mean I think Taichi can't learn from his teammates but I don't think this is a problem specifc to Taichi.
__________________
|
|
2012-02-17, 14:41 | Link #1107 | ||||||||||
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
- Nishida didn't need to hear any syllable to defend his card. It only mattered to make him decide to actually take it. - Nishida may not have been sure, but he still treated his card as a one-syllable one. In fact, if Taichi hadn't attacked, he might have made a mistake on the first, dead, "The" card. Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Or is it going to be some Yu-Gi-Oh like "will of the cards"? Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||||||||
2012-02-17, 15:09 | Link #1108 | |
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
You mean Kana. She takes the Chihayaburu card, and thinks, "I've gotten better at the cards my friends are good at." I don't recall Taichi doing this.
__________________
|
|
2012-02-17, 15:18 | Link #1109 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Quote:
Pretty much it seems to me your theory is only Taichi fails to understand team work and that is ridiculous. If anything Taichi has great strength in supporting the team and obviously Nishida came out to have that heart to heart with Taichi because he realizes his value to them all. Just because Taichi lost, he still has the other team member's respect.
__________________
|
|
2012-02-17, 16:18 | Link #1110 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2012-02-17, 16:55 | Link #1111 | ||
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
I am saying something else, and something very specific. Taichi doesn't understand--yet--that playing as a team is a way to improve individually. After the nationals, he tells everyone to focus on their individual goals. In effect, he is telling the team to split up by ranking level, and to focus on individual matches, in order to achieve higher individual level rankings. And this strategy is successful, if ironically, not for Taichi himself. But I think the strategy has a limit, which Kana explains: it places individuals in a situation of pressure, which limits how well they can play. The solution to this limit, as Chihaya realizes in the van, is to play again as a team. Chihaya understands this, and Taichi does not, at least not yet. ------ One more thing. I would point out that Taichi's reaction to his match is very different from the other three members of his team playing in the finals. Kana is overcome with a happy sadness: happy that she has won, sad that Tsutomu has lost. Tsutomu has a moment of disappointed disbelief, but after the ritual bow and thanks, he sincerely congratulates Kana, and appreciates her concern for him. The match brings them together, draws them closer to each other. The other match could not be more different. We get a single reaction shot of Yusei, and he appears to be concerned for Taichi, and expresses no apparent happiness at his victory. Chihaya, Kana, and Tsutomu all have frozen faces, apparently feeling Taichi's loss but unwilling to express more in respect for Yusei's win. Taichi, however, is overwhelmed with disappointment, prostrate on the tatami. Then we get a jump cut to the locker room. Yusei is on edge, afraid to say anything, and even stutters in response when Taichi says he's heading for the lobby. Then we get Taichi's question to Yusei about whether he knew what cards were out there, followed by Taichi's put-down. Later, in the lobby, Taichi will berate himself for being a jerk to Yusei. I give him credit that he is more concerned about his own bad behavior than even about losing. And he apologizes immediately to Yusei. But it is still Yusei, and not Taichi, who makes the move to break the ice between them, and to do the male bonding thing. Yusei takes the first step--Taichi only responds. We can excuse as we like Taichi's reaction to the match. It is very very disappointing to come in second, especially under such circumstances. That doesn't change the fact that his immediate response is self-centered, and shows no sensitivity to Yusei. The scene illustrates how Taichi's desperate desire to win is hurtful not only to Yusei and team feeling, but also to Taichi's own character. It puts him in a place where he starts to behave badly, where he is thinking more about himself than he is about the team. Not good. Quote:
__________________
|
||
2012-02-17, 16:58 | Link #1112 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
|
Quote:
I dunno if that "freedom of movement" would really be enough to take a card in a "luck of the draw" situation but it's certainly an antithesis to the determination or intensity Nishida or Taichi were focusing on at the end of the battle. It's an interesting point if, as hyperborealis says, the mangaka's intention is to portray Taichi as "missing" or "passing by" the key to karuta in the form of a pure state of play--a relaxed, empty, thoughtless/formless engagement with the game itself--rather than an intense, focused determination or preoccupation with winning, which is at the root of Taichi's very character. I don't ultimately think that teamwork by itself can be the key to reaching that pinnacle, even if it might be a good starting step to it. By playing against or together with team-mates, you can relax and just focus on bringing out your style of play. Letting your team-mates share the pressure of "victory" with you, you can instead fully engage yourself in the game of karuta itself. However, in the end it is still important to be able to reach that state even in individual play, and ultimately your ability to play at the highest level of karuta shouldn't depend on being familiar with your opponents or your teammates being beside you. For Chihaya, if she is to take on the Queen eventually, she needs to learn from others; but she must also become able to wield that strength by herself. So I do think it might be a little too polarizing to do things like putting teamwork and individualism at two ends of a debate and nominating Chihaya and Taichi as their representatives. Or, at least, saying that one side is definitively more correct than the other. |
|
2012-02-17, 18:17 | Link #1113 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
|
Well, based that on the fact that Taichi admitted early in the series that he wasn't good enough to be Chihaya's practice partner. Also various times were Nishida is himself mentioned he is the better player of the two. Granted the gap might have being closed to the point that it's a toss up. Either way I still think Nishida is the overall better player.
__________________
|
2012-02-17, 18:21 | Link #1115 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
|
I agree with that as well. I mean, tennis is a good analogy. A great pair player isn't necessarily a good singles player and vice versa.
Back to Karuta right now, Shinobu is obviously able to reach to her current status without playing in a team tournament or having teammates.
__________________
|
2012-02-17, 18:37 | Link #1116 |
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Ah, but as Sol Falling has already pointed out, Shinobu's solo play is a perfect set-up for Chihaya to supersede her based on a team-based or improvement-via-learning-from-everyone approach.
Sol: Thesis: team-play. Antithesis: individual play. Synthesis: superior individual play through team practice, specifically the effortless style of play you describe so well. In narrative terms, Taichi finally levels up, and Chihaya beats Shinobu. Hegelian narrative development! I don't know if the characters work out to polar opposites, but I do think the anime is making its preference known for a team approach, and individuals understanding themselves even as individuals within a team context. This would be characteristically Japanese, no? I do think that the mangaka uses Taichi as a foil for this way of thinking. Also, I don't think you can write a manga or even read it without having a point of view, or making such preferences. To write, and to read, is to make choices. It's inescapable. As Anh Minh's last post instances--thanks, by the way.
__________________
Last edited by hyperborealis; 2012-02-17 at 23:31. |
2012-02-17, 20:08 | Link #1117 | ||||
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Quote:
fundamentally different as well. Yes Kana was the ultimate winner of her match with Tsutomu but in the end with their match both Kana and Tsutomu were winners. They both advance to the next level and we can see how far they have both improved in their matches. In this match 2nd place might not mean as much as first but it does mean something. With Taichi and Nishida's match only the winner will advance, 2nd place is just 2nd place. Also I would argue that Taichi and Nishida were already at the top level of B so them playing in the finals is not the same as Kana and Tsutomu's growth in the episode. In fact Taichi made the finals in the previous tournament and also lost. With the discussion about who is the stronger player I do think both Nishida and Taichi were pretty equal, each with their own individual strengths, but only one can move forward and this time it was Nishida's turn. Quote:
But Nishida understood that Taichi said that because he was hurt. For a moment Taichi was being a "sore loser" but it was Taichi himself who admitted he was wrong. And I don't think Taichi is alone in having negative moments like this, the important thing is he realized he was wrong. But still Taichi was hurting and Nishida understood how Taichi felt because he was in the situation himself, 2nd place does hurt. So no I disagree with you that it looks bad on Taichi that he wasn't the one to come out to Nishida, instead in my eyes it just gives points to Nishida for being the good winner. Quote:
Taichi's reaction to losing was human. Yes it was a negative reaction but I think we all feel things like that sometimes. Quote:
Also I just really don't see how Taichi's ultimately problem is team work VS individuality. That's not to say I don't think he can learn things from his team members. Yes I do think Taichi is stuck in B because there is something he still needs to learn and who knows maybe being in a lower class will ultimately improve Taichi. Of course conventional wisdom says you get strong playing stronger players but Taichi might need something else first.
__________________
|
||||
2012-02-17, 23:27 | Link #1118 | ||
Lost at Sea
Join Date: Mar 2010
|
Quote:
Quote:
I worked up an explanation for this, which I guess you didn't like. That's fine. The main thing is, do you see this pattern? And if you do, how do you make sense of it? I'm actually more interested in what you make of this than my own theories. I feel about this the same way Chihaya does about learning from Sakura: you can surprise me with something I don't know--I can't.
__________________
Last edited by hyperborealis; 2012-02-18 at 00:29. |
||
2012-02-18, 06:12 | Link #1119 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
|
Quote:
And perhaps it's not so much I disagreed on the group vs individual stance but more the Taichi VS everyone else stance.
__________________
|
|
2012-02-18, 06:20 | Link #1120 |
Kana Hanazawa ♥
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: France
Age: 37
|
I think the contrast between Taichi and Tsutomu's reaction to their defeat is easy to understand. For starters, this is the second time Taichi ends up in second place. As Nishida stated in an earlier episode, second place hurts, placing second for the second time must hurt even more; especially somebody like Taichi who is more accustomed to being number one. Tsutomu, on the other hand, had never reached the end of a tournament before, that alone in itself is a tremendous achievement for a Karuta newbie like him. Furthermore, it's obvious he likes Kanade quite a bit (maybe even has a crush on her), so he was more easily able to put aside his disappointment and be happy for her.
The second difference between their situation is in the way they were defeated. Kanade was the stronger player and you could clearly see it on the mat: several cards on Tsutomu's side, only one on hers; it was so apparent Tsutomu himself obviously couldn't miss it either and he almost gave up before the match even ended as a result. It's easier to accept defeat if your opponent is stronger than you. While Taichi eventually admitted Nishida had been slighty better than him after cooling his head off, the gap between them was most certainly not large, and the fact the match was decided by luck of the draw made it even less noticeable. It's not hard for me to put myself in Taichi's shoes and understand how he was misled into thinking Nishida won thanks to luck in the heat of the moment and harbored bitter feelings towards him for a little while due to it. In the end, what matters more than his spurt of the moment reaction is that he eventually realized on his own that he had been unfair to Nishida and that no hard feelings were left between the two. I'm sure this has taught Taichi a lot and that we'll never catch him reacting this way again. Of course, that's just how *I* saw it.
__________________
|
Tags |
josei, karuta, madhouse |
|
|