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View Poll Results: Who’s Under the Mask? | |||
Madara | 104 | 32.91% | |
Madara’s Son | 14 | 4.43% | |
Madara’s Clone | 30 | 9.49% | |
Madara’s Ghost/Soul/Poltergeist given shape... | 33 | 10.44% | |
Obito | 59 | 18.67% | |
Obito’s Body, but not really Obito... | 55 | 17.41% | |
Someone else’s body (not Obito’s)... | 21 | 6.65% | |
Zetsu’s Love Child... | 23 | 7.28% | |
Tobirama/Sarutobi/or anyone with a 'tobi' in their name... | 16 | 5.06% | |
Bruce Wayne or other… | 69 | 21.84% | |
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 316. You may not vote on this poll |
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2010-04-17, 16:12 | Link #81 |
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^Oh, seems like I remembered that wrong, it's been quite a while since that happened.
What I don't get though, is that Kakashi said he sent the explosion to another dimension. So why wasn't this the case with the arm? Why was the arm sent to another place in the same dimension?
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2010-04-17, 16:19 | Link #82 |
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A random place, eh? Pretty far fetched, his arm appearing so near to him is a one in a million chance.
Deidara's arms are mystery in itself, though. His other arm was crushed to bits by Gaara's sand. I also doubt Kakuzu could make arms with mouths in it. Maybe Deidara created the mouth on his arm again using his technique, after gaining a new one. Anyway, this is going off topic
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2010-04-17, 19:10 | Link #83 | |
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maybe if kakashi mastered it well.... he can do what Tobi do when going to a different place in just a second..... Its just to prove that Tobi and Kakashi's sucking power is kinda the same...... because you said its not.......
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2010-04-18, 10:17 | Link #86 | |
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2010-04-18, 23:12 | Link #90 |
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Hmmm... so Obito is tied with Bruce Wayne currently... which is ranked third.
I have to say I can't imagine it's JUST Madara. If it has anything to do with Madara at all it will be him in another body or someone else with his power at the most. I mean how pathetic would all this suspense and mystery with the mask be if it's simply the character he claimed to be a hundred manga's before they decide to remove the mask? Why would Kishi go out of his way to avoid showing his face like the time Tobi takes off the mask for Kisame when he had already revealed his claim as Madara if that were the only case. I just can't believe Madara has the most votes right now. Despite everything that's happened in the manga sense Pain, I still have more faith in Kishi than that. Alright, I just did some reading. Yeah I think the best evidence for Tobi being Obito used to be the same intact eye and similar abilities to Kakashi. Izanagi made the missing eye thing loose it's importance because that obviously could have been what Madara used to survive at the Valley of the End. But we still have this thing with the dimension ability. If it's not something unique to Tobi/Obito (and now Kakashi) what is it? Is it some other sharringan tech? and if so, why haven't any of the other sharringan users performed it or anything like it? If it's common to any advanced sharringan then certainly Itachi, Sasuke, and probably even Danzou would be more proficient with it's abilities than Kakashi. I believe it's something unique to the user like Shizui's mind control ability, otherwise you'd see other Uchiha taking advantage of such a useful talent. It's as deadly as Amaterasu (get rid the target just by looking at them), but at the same time it can also be used as a defensive measure as seen by Tobi. The problem is if it's not common, but a unique ability, you have to assume Kakashi and Tobi both have theirs from the same source. I haven't really ever read a decent argument to an alternative for this. Would some non-Tobi=Obito person mind addressing this? (looks at James sense he at least acknowledges the similarities between Kakashi's and Tobi's abilities) And please don't bother with the "they are completely different techniques" thing. I think enough people have shown manga images showing both abilities are sucking things into other dimensions. Kakashi's is simply less focused so he doesn't have the added bonus of being able to retrieve what he gets rid of or send himself in. This is a little off topic, but I was also wondering whoever Tobi is, he's got a room full of Sharringans and maybe even a rennagin or two, so any ideas as to why he doesn't use one himself for his seemingly missing left eye? My theory is he's after an EMS to replace it, and that's why he's been encouraging the encounter between Itachi and Sasuke, and ever sense encouraging Sasuke to go ahead and take his brother's eyes. If that's the case, Sasuke better watch his back now. Last edited by Emilis; 2010-04-19 at 13:56. |
2010-04-21, 23:11 | Link #91 | |
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Spoiler for Manga 487 pg. 04:
What we see here is Madara stopping Kakashi from using his MS Kamui, claiming that it will not work on him. BUT Madara has, at this point in time, never seen Kakashi use that move in person. In fact, Sasuke was shocked that Kakashi even knows Mangekyou Sharingan a couple pages back. Madara's only source of info on Kakashi's MS is from Deidara. So why is he so confident he can negate Kakashi's MS? First take a look at the only other specimen of MS: Itachi and Sasuke's eyes. We can infer that each and every eye has a unique ability, to the point where the left and the right eyes have completely different abilities. This proves why Kakashi and Madara's abilities differ. Also, in the Sasuke VS KillerBee battle, we also learned that Amaterasu can be negated by Tsukuyomi. In other words, The Eye of Destruction can be negated by the Eye of Utility. Taken that fact into account, we can deduce that: The Eye of Destruction (Left eye) = Amaterasu and Kamui The Eye of Utility (Right eye) = Tsukuyomi and Madara's Time/Space Jutsu So therefore, the only reasonable conclusion is that Madara is so confident that he can negate Kamui without even witnessing it firsthand is because he holds the counterpart eye. And thus Madara (or at least his eye) is indefinitely Obito's. P.S.- Manga #486, page 04, proves that "Tobi's" other eye is current vacant. Addendum: The Theory of Susano You need two eyes to activate. So Kakashi/Madara is definitely not going to be able to activate it. Also, it taxes the vision more than the other 2 abilities. |
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2010-04-22, 00:29 | Link #92 |
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^That doesn't actually prove that Madara/Tobi's eye is, or should I say was, Obito's eye. Madara has extensive knowledge of the MS, Sharingan, and the techniques it posses. He has shown this knowledge by somehow dispelling (or at least negating) Amaterasu; explaining the difference between a complete and incomplete Susano’o (as well as mentioning how rare it is for the technique to appear at all); and he has explained several ultimate attacks that the Sharingan posses (Shisui's mind-control, and the recently revealed Izanagi). So, it stands to reason that, even after only hearing of Kakashi's technique, he could already know of its presence within the pantheon of Sharingan techniques (i.e., while not "common", it is still known). We must recall that Madara, more or less, invented the Mangekyo Sharingan, so he would know best about the mutated eye.
(I should point out now, even if just as a quibble, Sasuke and Itachi's eyes are reversed - their Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi come out of different eyes; I don't know if that necessarily negates your theory (it does, somewhat, for Itachi and Sasuke, but not necessarily for Obito's potential 2nd eye), but it does show that the basic pattern (EoD - left, EoU - right) doesn't carry through from person to person (though there is always a separation (left and right eye each contain one known technique, and both can be used for another technique (and 4 eyes can be used for a 4th technique)).) That being said, Madara’s technique, and Kakashi’s Kamui are too similar to really be classified as different techniques (they both, essentially, do the same thing (transport matter from one place to another), but Madara is able to more accurately and adequately use his technique. Additionally, since the MS grants one supreme Ninjutsu, and one supreme Genjutsu, Obito’s other eye, wherever it is, should be a genjutsu eye, not a Ninjutsu eye (since Kakashi already has the ninjutsu eye). (Also, I should mention that it is still unknown if Madara is even using his MS when using his technique. It could be possible that his Time/Space thingy is actually simply a Sharingan technique ala Izanagi, and that is why he retains so many Sharingans...) To expand further, though, the negation of powers seems a bit of a stretch. Tsukuyomi does not negate Amaterasu (no, Sasuke using his Tsukuyomi eye to dispel Amaterasu was not a form of negation, he could simply control the Amaterasu flame with his non-Amaterasu eye), nor does whatever Madara/Tobi (if it is a MS technique) does negate Kamui. If they are connected eyes, it wouldn't be that the one eye negates the other; it would be that one eye is simply more powerful than the other. In fact, at least for Sasuke and Itachi, Madara/Tobi already explained that each brother was more geared toward a specific eye, and, consequently, that eye was significantly more powerful than the other - Sasuke's Tsukuyomi sucked (only lasting seconds, and not being able to create "dimensions" within the mind), whereas his Amaterasu comes with a slew of secondary techniques (his Enton attacks); but Itachi's eyes were the exact opposite, with an uber-powerful Tsukuyomi (able to create entire realities within the victims mind), and a, I'll say, average Amaterasu. So, between the brothers, one eye is more powerful than the other, and that eye would, for lack of a better description, kick the weaker eye's "ass". Consequently, if Madara/Tobi's eye is the brother to Kakashi's eye, then it isn't that one power negates the other, but rather that one eye is simply more powerful, and if your hypothesis is correct, the stronger eye would be Madara's eye. btw, how does 486, page 04-05 prove that Madara only has one eye? Last edited by james0246; 2010-04-22 at 00:57. Reason: brief clarification... |
2010-04-22, 01:15 | Link #93 | ||||||
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2010-04-22, 02:10 | Link #94 | ||||
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Just a few quick points (most of what we are saying is speculation, and I do not dismiss the possibility of your claims, I simply find them somewhat of a stretch...).
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2) Since it is a unique ability to a Sharingan (and not a MS), it seems probable that both eyes had the ability. Quote:
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In the end until I actually see the MS used in conjunction with the technique I am not willing to simply accept it as a MS jutsu... |
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2010-04-22, 05:18 | Link #95 |
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I actually spoke about this with a friend of mine just recently, following Kabuto's appearance and his little trap card. I'm starting to think it quite likely that Tobi isn't actually Madara, but someone posing as Madara who took the Sharingan and artificially implanted it to his eye-socket (similar to Kakashi). If you think about it, we've never seen Tobi use the Mangekyou Sharingan. Even when he sent Sasuke and others to the alternate dimension, he was not using the MS. Kakashi has a similar technique with the MS, so if that really was an Uchiha, you'd expect the same out of him. However, that isn't actually the case, so there's reason to believe his alternate dimension might just be a technique from an entirely different clan.
Also, Tobi was quite distressed when Kabuto showed him his trap card, so we thought that it could be the body of the real Madara. In a sense, Kabuto is blackmailing Tobi as he knows he isn't who he says he is. Additionally, he's always been aversive to fighting. For someone like Madara, who has the greatest power in the Naruverse in the form of the Eternal MS, you'd expect him to be unafraid of anything, but we never even saw Tobi use any offensive jutsus. All in all, I'm starting to think Tobi isn't Madara, but is rather a hypothetical Mr. X. Other possibilities for what Kabuto's trap card is are Madara's brother or the original Sage of the six paths, but either choice is unlikely because Madara's brother's body would be quite useless considering he does not have his own eyes anymore, and the Sage of the Six paths would be in a similar position because iirc, his eye powers were lost once he split the chakra of the Jyuubi into nine other Biiju as well as his sons, so he would be useless without those powers compared to the other bodies in Kabuto's collection. The real Madara, on the other hand, would be a different story, and really would put Mr. X in a difficult position. |
2010-04-22, 05:40 | Link #96 | |
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Kabuto can just force himself to get sasuke without talking to Tobi
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2010-04-22, 07:13 | Link #97 | ||
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2010-04-22, 10:19 | Link #98 | |||
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That being said, it is unknown if Madara/Tobi still has the EMS... Quote:
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2010-04-23, 11:41 | Link #100 | |||
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Idk how that proves it is unknown that Madara has the EMS Quote:
Are you sure those are memories? Tobi's good at telling stories, but that doesn't mean they come from memories. He could be acting for all we know. |
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