Lacus Clyne... the Plot Hole Character

[Schneizel]

Uhh no they'll be invincible because it sells. $$

[SNT1]

for the love of everything that is holy, do not bring real-life politics in here... it deteriorates the discussion when a [insert random current politician/star] is getting bashed.... none of that stuff here...

to make matters worse you just proved that Lacus is indeed perfect and flawless(compared to today's people you mentioned); your reasoning fails.

[tritoch]

Originally Posted by SNT1

for the love of everything that is holy, do not bring real-life politics in here... it deteriorates the discussion when a [insert ramdom current politician] is getting bashed.... none of that stuff here...

Agreed but also note that the Gundam series always had made a sort of reference to real world politics.

Enough Lacus bashing..

Lets just all get along for the sake of peace

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by SNT1

for the love of everything that is holy, do not bring real-life politics in here... it deteriorates the discussion when a [insert random current politician/star] is getting bashed.... none of that stuff here...

to make matters worse you just proved that Lacus is indeed perfect and flawless(compared to today's people you mentioned); your reasoning fails.

The discussion was comparing Lacus to the real world. Don't tell people to not bring up real world elements in a discussion comparing the real world to a fantasy world.

The bottom line is- Gundam Seed had some incredibly powerful villains. In conclusion, they needed incredibly powerful good guys to beat those villains.

My reasoning didn't fail, it's still justified.

Learn2read please, thanks.

[SNT1]

nonononononono lol.

If ZAFT and the Dully Thugs were incredibly powerful, the 'good guys' need to be powerful too, right?

It occured in Real life and Gundam.

WW1
WW2
Zeon vs Feddies
AEUG vs Titans

so on...

But, If both sides are incredibly powerful, they should cancel out right? Should one come on top of another, its the victor.

However, Lacus Thugs did more than just cancel out the baddies, they WIPED them. not even a challenge. Thats why people are irked off Lacus. A good war story will suffer casualties from both sides. what happens? ZAFT=crippled, EA=obliterated, good guys=TEH PAWN! (except for a shot dom and dearka)...

thats not what happens in most Gundam stories. Hell, in Endless waltz the gundams were on the losing side lots of times.'

wow, proving Lacus isn't invincible is hard, ne?

[Arimfe]

Originally Posted by Nameless

If we actually HAD a singer like Lacus in our reality, it might not be that far fetched that she'd have political influence.

But we do...right here Tanaka Rie, a very lovely one at that, and she is just as good as Lacus.
She doesn't have much political influence though
So maybe you are wrong?

[monster]

Originally Posted by SNT1

However, Lacus Thugs did more than just cancel out the baddies, they WIPED them.

No they didn't, in fact both SEED and Destiny ended up with a peace treaty.

[SNT1]

of course, its rather dumb to keep fighting a losing battle :P dont most wars end with some treaty anyway?

I guess 'wiped' was a wrong choice of wording. how about "effortlessly defeated?"

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by monstert

No they didn't, in fact both SEED and Destiny ended up with a peace treaty.

Quoted for truth.

Also, you guys keep basing these discussions on Destiny.

Did you all forget how many people died horrible deaths in SEED? I mean seriously, they can't have one series after another with heartache and torturous death.

I'm glad Destiny ended up the way it was. I was actually afraid of Mwu dying, because he was so cool and it just seemed like it would happen.

As far as Lacus/Kira, what happened is exactly what I predicted.

Good guys won, good story.

You guys keep hoping for depressing stories, you aren't getting tired of that in anime?

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Nameless

Good guys won, good story.

You guys keep hoping for depressing stories, you aren't getting tired of that in anime?

Nah, we like good stories too. We just don't like predictable ones.

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by M_Flores

Nah, we like good stories too. We just don't like predictable ones.

You just contradicted yourself.

Know why? In anime right now, SAD endings are the predictable ones. People are predicting sad endings left and right.

Spoiler for Related to Fate Stay/Night, Galaxy Express 999, Gundam Seed:

People are expecting Saber in F S/N to die at the end and Shirou to not get to spend his life with her. People predicted in Galaxy E 999 that Louis and Manabu wouldn't end up together and that Louis would've died or vice versa during the climax. People predicted that Cagalli or Athrun would've died, or Shinn, or even Kira at times! It was UNpredictable that we actually get a happy ending

Just look at Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, etc. All those anime had heartache endings.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but SAD endings are the predictable ones right now.

What happened with Lacus/Kira was actually unexpected, and I even have evidence to support that. What's my evidence? Simple. Gundam SEED is my evidence.

Watch it again because I think half of you forget the heartache Kira experienced in that series.

[SNT1]

I'm glad Destiny ended up the way it was. I was actually afraid of Mwu dying, because he was so cool and it just seemed like it would happen.

what, you are a plot hole fan Mwu was cool in SEED, he died, tough luck, bringing him back to life is kinda... cheap.

hey, I liked GSD for what it is, but even I admit Lacus is just. too. flawless.

while I dont like deathfest animes, there are some shows that manages to be "just right". 08thMS team? Gundam? Endless Waltz even? -.-

I just dont like Dully's Thugs to be super weak in the end (or was it Lacus and her invincibility magic? yep, might be it)

go watch SailorMoon, it kinda fits your type of show. (WAIT, even the main character makes a mistake there. FUDGE!)

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by SNT1

what, you are a plot hole fan Mwu was cool in SEED, he died, tough luck, bringing him back to life is kinda... cheap.

while I dont like deathfest animes, there are some shows that manages to be "just right". 08thMS team? Gundam? Endless Waltz even? -.-

I just dont like Dully's Thugs to be super weak in the end (or was it Lacus and her invincibility magic? yep, might be it)

It's a fictional story.

Is Anakin's survival after having his arms and legs cut off and being burned by lava plausible? No? Do you hate Star Wars for it?

In fictional stories, we are accented by fictional heros. I don't WATCH anime so I can see what real life is like. All I have to do for that is go outside and take note of all the hot girls I meet that aren't interested in me; All the tough guys I can't beat up; All the expensive cars I can't own.

When I watch anime/movies, read manga/books, I go the fiction route so I can see other people that I admire GET what I can't have.

I want to see Lacus and Kira defeat Zaft because I know in the real world that WOULDNT happen, but I want to see it in a believable way, if that makes sense. If you studied comparitive literature and fiction/sci fi literature the way I do, you'd know it DOES make sense.

Basically in fiction, you rationalize fictional qualities. In real life bullets are very fateful. If you get shot in the torso you can't move and you'll most likely die, but such is not the case in over 90% of all anime. In a lot of anime you see someone get shot 12 times in the chest and still get up and do a Kamehameha and save the day. Yet for all 16 episodes (Over 300 minutes of footage, but in the story it's "five minutes") the person is supposedly near death, yet not only continues fighting but fights at a strength comparable to the villain that just shot him.

How do you explain that? You can't REALLY rationally explain it, but you shouldn't want the protagonist to lose either.

Is it a plot hole? Not necessarily. A lot of people up to this point have provided rational argument BASED on a fictional universe to defend Lacus' existence in the Gundam Seed world.

There were a lot of times in the series where Shinn should've died but he didn't. I don't flame Shinn fans for that because I think Shinn was a key element to the plot development.

[monster]

Originally Posted by SNT1

I guess 'wiped' was a wrong choice of wording. how about "effortlessly defeated?"

Wrong again, there's effort in every battle and both sides suffered losses.

Anyways,

If Lacus were perfect, she would've achieved her goals in SEED, but it turns out she failed and war breaks out again. So all she could do is do her part and hope for the best, like the rest of us do in real life. Just because she ended up winning her gamble in life doesn't make her some perfect being.

If Lacus were invincible, she wouldn't be hurt. Yet she was hurt over her dad and Meer. And she owes her own life to the people around her. So again, it's not solely because of her own might, but her friends that enable her to be on the winning side, at least for now.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Nameless

You need great heros to defeat great foes,

I agree with what you say, but I can't help but think that either Kira or Athrun could have done it alone on that one. It'd have taken more effort, but either one could have done it alone, with one hand tied behing his back.


And about predictability: I agree with what you've said about GS, but GSD... at the beginning, it was very fluid, anything could have happened. Even a final fight between Kira and a brainwashed Athrun, why not? But by episode 40 or so... The bad guys were pretty much defeated, they just didn't know it yet.

(Note: I don't care about predictability that much. If I did, I'd probably stop watching anime.)

[Nameless]

Originally Posted by monstert

Wrong again, there's effort in every battle and both sides suffered losses.

Anyways,

If Lacus were perfect, she would've achieved her goals in SEED, but it turns out she failed and war breaks out again. So all she could do is do her part and hope for the best, like the rest of us do in real life. Just because she ended up winning her gamble in life doesn't make her some perfect being.

If Lacus were invincible, she wouldn't be hurt. Yet she was hurt over her dad and Meer. And she owes her own life to the people around her. So again, it's not solely because of her own might, but her friends that enable her to be on the winning side, at least for now.

100% agreed.

And to add, since when did Lacus perfectly win this battle anyway?

Destiny's end was indecisive. At best, Clyne Faction DELAYED the war, but it's far from over. There will definitely be some hostility between Zaft and Orb over Zaft's lost leader. Sure they show Cagalli and Zaft's new female leader shaking hands at F+ but really, that's not a lot of merit considering the same treaties were in tact before.

Sure Lacus might've defeated Zaft and their huge cannon thing, but really it was a choice between them perfectly winning or perfectly losing. Would you have considered Zaft+Shinn crew overpowered if they defeated Kira+Co. the same way? I doubt it, but that's fanboyism for ya.

It was done right imo.

EDIT following

I agree with what you say, but I can't help but think that either Kira or Athrun could have done it alone on that one. It'd have taken more effort, but either one could have done it alone, with one hand tied behing his back.


And about predictability: I agree with what you've said about GS, but GSD... at the beginning, it was very fluid, anything could have happened. Even a final fight between Kira and a brainwashed Athrun, why not? But by episode 40 or so... The bad guys were pretty much defeated, they just didn't know it yet.

(Note: I don't care about predictability that much. If I did, I'd probably stop watching anime.)

Agreed on the first part, and even inclusive I'd think Mu could've won with that incredibly powerful MS he had been given from Cagalli. That thing had the best Funnels ever and reflective armor. Geez. Giving it to Mu was the best choice MADE in GSD from anyone.

Also, things with Athrun were unpredictable for a long time. The fact that it went on like that up to 40 is applaudable. Remember with Anime it's hard to remain unpredictable even past 50% of the series. GSD managed to keep that element up to only 20% remaining in the series. That's good by my standards.

And to be honest, even as far as story development goes, you can't really say Zaft had the best resources by the story's standards. Kira defeated Rau (IIRC) and in GSD he fought a Rau clone, not even the real deal. Shinn was an impulsive kid and not even a main villain, he was just a plot building character that developed a lot of fan service, and he was pitted against Athrun, GS's main rival for Kira.

It wasn't a matter of Clyne Faction's power being "unbelievable", it was more that the villain's didn't stand a chance if the good guys actually stood together. Blame that on the writers, not the characters, if you're unhappy with how it turned out. I won't, because i"m happy with it.

[M_Flores]

Originally Posted by Nameless

You just contradicted yourself.

Know why? In anime right now, SAD endings are the predictable ones. People are predicting sad endings left and right.

Spoiler for Related to Fate Stay/Night, Galaxy Express 999, Gundam Seed:

People are expecting Saber in F S/N to die at the end and Shirou to not get to spend his life with her. People predicted in Galaxy E 999 that Louis and Manabu wouldn't end up together and that Louis would've died or vice versa during the climax. People predicted that Cagalli or Athrun would've died, or Shinn, or even Kira at times! It was UNpredictable that we actually get a happy ending

Just look at Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, etc. All those anime had heartache endings.

Sorry to burst your bubble, but SAD endings are the predictable ones right now.

What happened with Lacus/Kira was actually unexpected, and I even have evidence to support that. What's my evidence? Simple. Gundam SEED is my evidence.

Watch it again because I think half of you forget the heartache Kira experienced in that series.

Buddy, I didn't say all good endings were predictable. I'm actually saying GSD's ending was predictable. I thought I made it clear in my post. I like good endings as much as I do sad ones. But whether if being good or sad endings, I wouldn't enjoy them as much if I already had a great idea of what'd happen.

Gundam SEED ending was good, IMO, whether the people died or not. I really liked how a measely force like Orb and it's 3 ships was able to try and stop both races from wiping each other out.
But in Destiny, I kinda had a feeling that it would turn out the way it did.

So yeah, if you misunderstood my post, I apologise. Hope you got my point.

[SNT1]

Is Anakin's survival after having his arms and legs cut off and being burned by lava plausible? No? Do you hate Star Wars for it?

I dont hate Star Wars for it, although this sounds so irrelevant, since there is no 'invincible' character in that fiction.

In fictional stories, we are accented by fictional heros. I don't WATCH anime so I can see what real life is like. All I have to do for that is go outside and take note of all the hot girls I meet that aren't interested in me; All the tough guys I can't beat up; All the expensive cars I can't own.

When I watch anime/movies, read manga/books, I go the fiction route so I can see other people that I admire GET what I can't have.

While I admit I watch fiction to get away with the mess that is the real life, I also watch to RELATE. SOme people might relate "Hey, this guy went through blah blah blah, like what happened to me blah blahblah".

Do you dream of becoming a superman?

I want to see Lacus and Kira defeat Zaft because I know in the real world that WOULDNT happen, but I want to see it in a believable way, if that makes sense. If you studied comparitive literature and fiction/sci fi literature the way I do, you'd know it DOES make sense.

I watch Gundam because i know in the real world all those mecha wouldnt exist...they just look cool. I wanted them to beat ZAFT too.... but what part of Lacus is invincible dont you understand, lol.

Basically in fiction, you rationalize fictional qualities. In real life bullets are very fateful. If you get shot in the torso you can't move and you'll most likely die, but such is not the case in over 90% of all anime. In a lot of anime you see someone get shot 12 times in the chest and still get up and do a Kamehameha and save the day. Yet for all 16 episodes (Over 300 minutes of footage, but in the story it's "five minutes") the person is supposedly near death, yet not only continues fighting but fights at a strength comparable to the villain that just shot him.

Gundam delivers the sense of 'realism'. I watch DragonballZ if I wanna see some amazing stuff, or even Matrix, or whatever. Thats why Lacus is a flaw to most gundam fans---never has been a flawless character in Gundam.

Is it a plot hole? Not necessarily. A lot of people up to this point have provided rational argument BASED on a fictional universe to defend Lacus' existence in the Gundam Seed world.

.
in that case, all the other Gundam shows just did it better.

There were a lot of times in the series where Shinn should've died but he didn't. I don't flame Shinn fans for that because I think Shinn was a key element to the plot development

from ep. 1-48, really, I dont think he developed.

If Lacus were perfect, she would've achieved her goals in SEED, but it turns out she failed and war breaks out again. So all she could do is do her part and hope for the best, like the rest of us do in real life. Just because she ended up winning her gamble in life doesn't make her some perfect being.

If Lacus were invincible, she wouldn't be hurt. Yet she was hurt over her dad and Meer. And she owes her own life to the people around her. So again, it's not solely because of her own might, but her friends that enable her to be on the winning side, at least for now

she sure won all her wars clean, though.... *sees SF IJ and Akatsuki scratchless*

BY THE WAY, when i say 'invincible', i say that figuratively.... dont mean she walks on water or anything, just that anyone that gets in her way fails in a horrendous fashion.

[flamingtroll]

Just look at Evangelion, Cowboy Bebop, etc. All those anime had heartache endings.

I don't know how you interpret Eva, but i thought the movie and the tv ending are both are actually positive than just a "sad" ending. Cowboy Bebop was set out to be sad, hence "Bebop", so I can't really say I feel sad when i see the ending. I do however agree many other "sad" endings are there for the sake of it and are done tastelessly in lots of anime we see today. However, I think most people watching gundam expect a realistic ending, be it happy or sad, not a fairy tale, super-hero kind of happy ending for 7 years old. Becuase in real-life, you don't have a Freedom gundam that can "disable" 50 MS in a single episode without a scratched or hurting a fly. Nor can you easily enforce Lacus' "let's all not fight" ideals as shown. If things are these easy world peace would have been achieved in the real world already.

Heck I truely quesiton the messages SEED is trying to convey to the audience. In order to achieve peace you need to have a self-righteous faction with god-like miltary power to enforce it and pWNzing everythign that is in its way? And all the virtue they need to show for it is to sing good J-POP?

[Nameless]

lol again I point you to Gundam Wing. Gundam Wing had what, 5 incredibly powerful main heros? It went on for a while too but they died in the end.

Trust me, GS is barely on its second series. Gundam hasn't had a series with this popularity for quite some time. Give them time. One or two more seasons and you'll see Lacus is far from invincible.

And even if she is invincible, she's nothing compared to Kira.

Seriously Kira kicks so much butt in this series, it's almost annoying.

He hardly EVER loses and when he does, it's circumstantial. Shouldn't a VILLAIN's defeat be circumstantial and not the main hero's?

I can't think of a time where Kira straight up lost off the top of my head.

I think everyone's in for a rude awakening when GS3 comes out. All this pro-Shinn talk and "omgz liek Lacus is invinsibull" is going to seriously get put at rest if I know the Gundam writers the way I do.