2008-04-01, 10:22 | Link #1121 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2007
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For Hayate and Wolkies, Chrono (and Lindy) specifically offered a quid pro quo - service for relative freedom, which they accepted. What is it if not a demi-conscription. Given such large concessions (they agreed to serve), I'm sure the TSAB has a little maganimity. Oh, and Comarteris, regarding the whole feasibility of conscription of high-ranking mages, see the Military decisions thread. IMO, basically, the value of a high-ranking mage in their system is such that the risks are worthwhile. If this is going to turn into a full blown discussion, might want to move it to the Military thread... |
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2008-04-08, 06:19 | Link #1122 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Hence, I think the sword analogy fits better. Only when you get used to wielding a wooden one without hurting yourself are you trusted with a sharp one. Quote:
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what I meant with basic training was this: Do you see any devices? Do you see any of them learning the art of combat? Quote:
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That aside, using Ark's logic there is a perfectly logical reason why Eisen didn't activate the defence: It didn't know the attack was coming. The drone was stealthed from every form of scanning, surprising not only Vita, but Eisen as well. No matter how fast you are, if you don't know the attack is coming, good luck defending against it. Quote:
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Barrier Jackets: No defence against kinetic impacts (). Active Barriers: Too slow. Device activated Barriers: Bullets are too fast. And then there is the whole 'bullets travel at speed X so they'd penetrate barriers easilly' and so on and so on. If every possible defence the TSAB can mount against bullets is torn to pieces, how am I not supposed to believe that the analysts concider a gun to be superior to magic? Quote:
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A few cracks on the side, and the top doesn't look lazilly drawn to me. Quote:
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Erio and Caro noted that too, I point to Rein's explanation is episode 4: "Only the outside apearance is unchanged. We used only the basic frame and provided only minimal functions to let you get used to the feeling" Quote:
The DVD episodes are MKV format, which makes it rather difficult to do frame-by-frame calculations. Quote:
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I know, its not much, but its something. Quote:
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Besides, you seem to have absolutely no problem throwing away stadia ranging and diving into the Laws of Animation when its convenient for you either. Quote:
Last edited by Keroko; 2008-04-08 at 06:31. |
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2008-04-08, 07:19 | Link #1123 |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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Here's my comments for Tk3997's part
@The promised translation and commentary: 二人はちゃんとしたデバイスの使用経験が無かったですから...
Note bolded part. The debate-grade translation really should have been "Because (から) you two (二人は) have no usage experience (使用経験が無かった) with "decent / respectable / proper" devices (ちゃんとしたデバイスの)..." So, basically, the translation mislaid the emphasis point. It is not on the "real" experience. It should have been on what kind of devices. Obviously, the devices used with RF6 will be a huge step up over the regular storage devices. @The picture of a school: That's ... not ... basic ... training. That ... is ... a ... school! A ... civilian ... school ... It is a school that Signum suggested they go to during manga 13 or 14. @Nanoha outrunning helos: Do you mean Ep12? Frankly, the helo was hardly roaring across the sky in that one... it was bobbing at the speed of a car... If you mean she outrunning the helo while the ramp is open - well, generally heloes slow down when the ramp's open @Auto-Guard: Among other things, there is one huge advantage for any kind of fast moving defense. It can probably see the wall (which is large and flat) a lot more easily than it can see an oncoming bullet. @Beating Bullets: How about using some planning, and applying a proper mix of suppressive fires and proper buddy tactics to pre-erect shields. That oughta save you from bullets at least... You don't need to win every bullet fight. If you win 8 or 9 of them, you have the edge. I'll do my section later tonight. |
2008-04-08, 08:49 | Link #1124 | ||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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My computer crapped out on me, just as I finished taking down the Ep16 caps. LCD backlight went dead... exactly 364 days after purchase.
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Right after this discovery, my monitor died. I now type to you from my mom's antique. Quote:
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2008-04-08, 15:58 | Link #1129 | ||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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It does not, however, counter the fact that those training devices are lesser in performance then their live counterparts. Quote:
Though Erio would most likely be taught in the protection facillity. Fate is noted to have helped him study at any rate. Quote:
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Pff, look at the windows in the bridge, the things have repeated patterns they didn't even bother to fix. it goes from light, to dark, suddenly back to light in the exact same pattern. Not exactly finely detailed. Add a few cracks on the side and done. At least the top has propper shading. Quote:
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Anyway, now we are moving into my territory. I can say with full convidence that this was an animation choice. You can do two things in animation to show increased distance: Shrink them, or fade them. Shrinking is often a more obvious choice, because it increased the suggestion of the object moving away. However, there is a limit to how much you can shrink them before it becomes hard to control or find the points. Taking a screenshot and copying it in photoshop, the two are about two pixels wide, discounting radial blur. This is more then adequate to start fading. Now, the reason they blur them to make the effect of them vanishing more realistic. 2 pixels, hell even 1 pixel or not, simply cutting them off will be noticed. Fading provides a much smoother transition, which increases the end-result quallity. Where do you think "fading into the distance" comes from? Quote:
No no, I meant that I don't have a program I can use to watch frame-by-frame. Premiere doesn't swallow MKV, neither does directsub. Quote:
Oh, I just remembered. Rein was at the scene giving commands. Does that count? Quote:
Technically, it is. There are various things that can be explained using animatory choices that would otherwise make no sense. If you honestly try to tell me they should have animated the flight scenes without flapping hair and clothing, I'll laugh at you and welcome you to the land of low grades when you do an education in animation. |
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2008-04-08, 18:21 | Link #1130 | ||
Field Medic
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BARRIERS DO NOT STOP BULLETS. THIS IS BECAUSE BARRIERS DO NOT STOP ANYTHING!. if we take the Manga's wording , then barriers allow the user to 'gently avoid the attack' (according to my version's tranlsation) In other words, the barrier does not stop the attack, so much as redirect it. that is, a Barrier is a deflection mechanism. it does not stop the attack, but deflects it. Deflection is a well documented and widely used means of easily increasing the defensive ability of armour without increasing the thickness. In which case, I have no difficulty believing a barrier could disperse the energy of an attack by using a sloped projection of much lower energy than a shield (which stops attacks through direct energy opposal) to cause the bolt (or the constituents of the bolt) to ricochet off carrying most of the energy with them. In the case of bullets, then, rather than saying that barriers can simply stop bullets, it then becomes more a possibility that the bullets simply are intercepted by a sloped surface with the ideal angle of incidence to redirect them with minimal energy. Best of all, unlike with the solid armour of a tank, a barrier is malleable and can be reshaped on the fly; Whereas a tank's sloped armour can be defeated by altering the angle of attack, the Barrier would simply react to the different angle and reshape itself to maintain the ideal. As for the other means of defeating sloped armour, that of high momentum, well, that seems to also work against Barriers too. Melee weapons, then would work ideally against barriers because: 1: they possess greater mass and momentum Than the small package of a bullet or the easily dispersed small packages that would make up a particle type energy attack. 2: the user can actively fight the deflection and keep the blade on course despite the barrier attempting to deflect it (kind of like fighting against the grain of wood when using a saw; the saw wants to follow the path of least resistance, but the user can 'force' it to cut where they want) Of course, this doesn't wholly account for 'barriers' allowing mages to be punted through concrete walls etc. I admit that that is troublesome to this theory, however, it's possible that the barrier could, when suffering a large impact or the like, 'give' like a crumple zone or hydraulic damper, thereby again redirecting the energy by: 1: prolonging the length of time taken for the energy involved to be transferred, thus passing the kinetic energy onto the mage oin bite-sized chunks rather than all at once 2: absorbing some of the energy involved to do work other than that intended, by using it to deform the barrier rather than be transferred to the mage 3: adopting a sahpe most conducive to the redirection of the enrgy spreading it over the largest possible surface area and scattering as much of it off through deflection as it can by reactively altering in shape throughout the impact. how does this match up, according to your opinions? |
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2008-04-08, 18:37 | Link #1131 | |
The Dang-meister
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Here's a cookie :3
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2008-04-08, 19:08 | Link #1132 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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It's possible, of course, that a barrier simply has a load limit - it's only capable of absorbing so much force - and thus can be purely overwhelmed. We know that mages aren't completely immune to shock from being thrown into things - even if Nanoha or Fate get thrown into or through a concrete wall, they're not totally unfazed. So it's not unreasonable to assume that the barrier absorbs minor impacts completely (chucked bottle?) but only a percentage of impacts over its maximum strength (through the wall).
Still, you're overstating the difference between deflection and "stopping". True, you can play games with the angle of incidence to reduce the amount of "stopping" force you need to generate for a particular attack - it's pretty easy to bounce what would only be a grazing shot completely outside the body. On the other hand, if the shot is coming in dead-on, you can't really use a deflection trick, as it doesn't do any good to concentrate your power to bounce a shot that ends up in the wearer's ribs anyway! (Of course, if you're talking barriers generated by an intelligent device and its associated barrier jacket, it's entirely possible that they could modify the flight path of the mage such that the shot isn't coming in dead-on, and thus "generate a miss"... that is, evasive action to turn a direct hit into a grazing shot, and the barrier turns the grazing shot into a miss.) Then again, we have to face up to the fact that deflection normally works -really- well against melee weapons; just read up on a treatise on proper shieldwork sometime. Then again, it's not unreasonable to assume that the intelligent-device weapons, used in melee combat in the series, are on a totally different level of power than an ordinary stick swung by a little girl! So it's entirely possible that the barrier jackets attempt to play games with deflection, but are purely overpowered in close range combat by cartridge-equipped devices (or, heck, just Nanoha's plain old Raising Heart in S1 - or Bardiche, except when you are a lightning scythe, you don't have to assume it hits harder than normal farm implements!) Unfortunately, the visual evidence doesn't back up that theory either. Think back to the fight between Signum and Fate in S1 - on a couple of occasions, we see some "this would have hit except for the barrier from the jacket" swings. But the field from those swings isn't deflecting, it's just providing protection (in these cases, it's centered around the tip of a slashing weapon). So, again, we have to conclude that the barrier is just a plain old defensive-type, and one that can be pierced (both Fate and Signum take a scratch or two in that encounter). For that matter, we don't -know- that a normal barrier jacket can protect the user against bullets (or, at any rate, all bullets; there's a big difference between a .22 derringer and a .50 sniper rifle.) The only reason we're assuming that is because we don't ever see someone try to do it, and guns are a fairly unsophisticated technology - presumably if it were effective against mages, non-mages would employ it? But we don't see any guns or any non-mages in combat, so we're left to assume that they're not useful on the battlefield against a mage, which implies... That said, stopping a high-velocity bullet (or deflecting it, even) is a much harder proposition than stopping a slower impact, since kinetic energy increases geometrically with velocity and only directly with mass. In many ways, it's -easier- to make a field that would protect you against getting blown through a wall than it would be to make a field that would protect you against a sniper. Then again... (evil thought...) Maybe Mid just doesn't use guns because they never really employed them in warfare? In the real world, gunpowder weaponry was developed to reduce fortifications, and for use on massed bodies of troops. In a world where you have widespread use of magic, would there be the same impetus to develop gunpowder weapons? It's entirely possible that Mid never really employed normal guns in warfare at all, and went straight from spells to nukes... |
2008-04-08, 21:08 | Link #1133 | |||||||||||||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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I was actually relieved they did that. I won't know about quality, but the decision to fade actually also substantially increased the realism and thus the SoD applicability as well as a dampener to our new stadia ranger's hopes. You see, when you get down to such small pixel scales, the difference b/w 2px and 1px is measured as well over 150 meters. So you should actually have cursed them for fading, if your goal is to prove high speeds - you could have gotten a MUCH higher speed had they shrank instead of faded! IIRC (comp's broken), they took something like 40-45 frames before they faded out completely. Let's take 45 to be conservative. If the last frame before they faded completely is 1px, the range will have been at least 377m. In 45 frames that would have been 905km/h, in 40 frames 1019km/h - which is a perfectly competitive speed with all but supercruising fighters, and very good considering they are about to target man sized targets with visual acquisition systems - a real modern fighter would have had to slow down to acquire and hit them properly. At 2px, the speed's HALVED. Quote:
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2008-04-08, 21:15 | Link #1134 |
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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Brains explode and is left running around screaming "Physics! T3h Physics!!!"
Gawd I can't even vaguely contribute or comprehend more than 50% of all the posts since I first posted handwavium here. No wonder there are far more engineers than Medicine and Life Science in the Genshiken@UWA; its a statistical reflection of the greater otaku population.
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2008-04-08, 21:44 | Link #1135 | |||
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Join Date: Jun 2007
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For frame-by-frame, use ctrl-G to jump to a frame, then you can use the arrow keys to go frame-by-frame. |
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2008-04-08, 21:53 | Link #1136 |
Once and Current Subber
Join Date: Dec 2005
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Of course, keep in mind that even looking at something in Aegisub is only as good as your video encode - the frames in your video encode are not guaranteed to be equivalent to the frames in the original broadcast, on the master, what have you. (Something that's depressingly easy to screw up in encoding... had to bounce a file recently because somebody ticked the wrong box when they were encoding it for me. Hard to spot, too, especially if your audio sync is already iffy...)
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2008-04-09, 00:15 | Link #1137 | ||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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攻撃を防御膜で相殺して、柔らかく受け止めること旨とするもっとも汎用性の高い防御。 Far from "avoiding" or "deflecting" the attack, it actually says: "softly (柔らかく) taking (受け止める) the attack". Quote:
The high concentration field filling the Cradle that prevents magical bonding. The reason for not doing a complete cut off is because magic is an extremely efficient and good energy source for Midchildra, and thus is essential to the daily activities and machinery usage of the people on board. It is thought that the Cradle's crew and knights are trained to resist AMF, and thus can use magic against intruders who are having difficulty using magic, thus increasing the defensive capability of the ground. Last edited by arkhangelsk; 2008-04-09 at 00:43. |
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2008-04-09, 09:34 | Link #1138 | |||||||||||||||
Adeptus Animus
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Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Both Shields and Barriers are hard things. Quote:
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I'll double check the framecount when I get back home, and throw in Zest for good measure. Quote:
Ah, I see. Quote:
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And a return challenge for you: can you explain to me in a way that does not defy the laws of physics, how in the world Vita's hat stays on top of her head, even though she's flyin at high speed or bashing someone's skull in? Quote:
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Last edited by Keroko; 2008-04-09 at 12:42. |
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2008-04-09, 09:59 | Link #1139 |
Truth Martyr
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Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Doing Anzu's paperwork.
Age: 38
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A quick query: If the Commander is expected to conduct recon...
the what the HELL is the point of the Recon Platoon then? Also, let's consider: Forwards, Nanoha and Fate are being scrambled to intercept the threat ASAP. There's barely time for recon - and the flying drones are inbound. Are you really going to insist, ark, that Nanoha should have reconned the train first, ignoring the flight drones which were a more serious threat to the Forwards and the helo?
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2008-04-09, 10:29 | Link #1140 |
~ I Do ~
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Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: In the XV-8A Spartan "00"
Age: 38
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Also, Saint Church is already doing the recon; they had a team tracking the Relic, and I believe that same team found the train under attack, raised the alarm at the Church, which was then passed onto to Riot 6 command, who then pushed the button to turn out the troops.
Problem is, other than the mention of "our people have been tracking this Relic", we've no idea who in the world specifically is looking at the Relic.
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