AnimeSuki Forums

Yellow Flash · 2006-02-28, 15:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sazelyt

Not explained, but still Kakashi should have gained it without killing his best friend.
So, Itachi's (or, we can say, Uchiha's) assumption there was corrected later on in the story.

This is not an assumption. What Itachi said is true.

Hunter Nin. · 2006-02-28, 15:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Flash

This is not an assumption. What Itachi said is true.

Okay but why type the following if you weren't implying that what Itachi told Sasuke was false.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Flash

This is just what Itachi told Sasuke.

I assume that what Itachi told Sasuke is also what is written on the scroll that Sasuke read. I suppose we don't know if the author of that scroll is misinformed or not and so it is possible that there could be another way to gain MS which the Uchiha clan were unaware of.

Rurik · 2006-02-28, 15:25

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Nin.

I assume that is also what is written on the scroll that Sasuke read. I suppose we don't know if the author of that scroll is misinformed or not.

No, that’s only the History and purpose of the Doujutsu (or Uchihas) there is no indication it has an "Instructions on how to gain the MS", I guess, looking trough the History he can deduct how to gain MS.

Yellow Flash · 2006-02-28, 15:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter Nin.

Okay but why type the following if you weren't implying that what Itachi told Sasuke was false.

It's not false. But quite possibly this is not even the basic requirement.

Itachi merely told him what to do to gain MS.

Hunter Nin. · 2006-02-28, 15:50

Yes, I've never stated otherwise. So what is your argument?

Itachi gained MS.
Itachi told Sasuke that in order to gain MS he must kill his best friend.
Kakashi gained MS, he probably didn't kill his best friend to do so.
It's assumed that if you kill your best friend you will definitely gain MS (as this is what Itachi told Sasuke to do).
It's possible that if you don't kill your best friend you can still gain MS (as it is unlikely that Kakashi would kill his best friend).
So it's possible that when someone kills their best friend they do something that could trigger the development of MS.
So in order to gain MS it might be something as simple as "making a really hard decision." Which is what I meant by loophole but that probably wasn't the correct wording.

But anyway, we don't know.

malvado · 2006-03-01, 12:45

what has MS got to do with the strongest Hokage?

Hunter · 2006-03-02, 19:40

If this manga was darker, the death triggering Kakashi's ability to develop the MS could be his father's by either a murder due to Kakashi's disgust (if Naruto was a lot darker ^^) or Kakashi being his assistant during the suicide.

Too bad Naruto's a nice little shounen.

Yellow Flash · 2006-03-02, 19:45

Kakashi wasn't strong enough to kill Sakumo.

Illuyankas · 2006-03-02, 19:46

Doesn't rule out assisted suicide.

NaOH · 2006-03-02, 20:26

3rd is the strongest hokage up todate, PERIOD. How i know? I ask Kishi over the phone. He also told me that 4th was not real, he is just some fanboy's imagination bout some crap...

face it.. threads created by YF only leads to his fanboy fantasy bout 4th hokage. You can't convince fanboys because if you ever do, the universe will combust into a blackhole ending all things.

brad_le · 2006-03-05, 05:35

Shodai is the strongest beacause if it wasn't for him, there wouldn't be a sandaime or a yondaime.
If he didn't create Konoha, he wouldn't be able to train Sarutobi, who wouldn't be able
to train Oro, Tsunade, or Jiraya, who wouldn't be able to train Yondaime. If it weren't for him there
wouldn't be any fanboy topics on who's stronger between Oro and Yondaime.
Damn Shodaime the creator of fanboys!!!

Hunter · 2006-03-05, 15:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow Flash

Kakashi wasn't strong enough to kill Sakumo.

I wasn't talking about battle.

Ero-Senn1n · 2006-03-05, 19:47

The more we know about the 1st the more stronger he seems:
1, only one able to grow entire forests and do any wood jutsu
2, has done the that total darkness genjutsu and was able to catch in it hokage level person
3, He had unbeliveable physical strength
and in the recent chapter:
4, was able to control youma
So he is a strong contender for the strongest. Also the 3rd and 4th.
But the 2nd hokage seems to be a weaker guy, he should be about Kisame's level based on what he has shown when summoned.
My tip is that after the 1st somehow died at young age the 3rd was a child and the 2nd took the title only for a short period to allow the 3rd to grow stronger, but I think he was chosen to be the successor of the 1st from the beginning.
The death of the 1st might have something to do with the MS, maybe somebody like Itachi killed him, maybe the unknown 3rd MS user. And the battle may have been that Kakashi mentioned in the Valley of the end. At least that would connect two story lines

EEZP · 2006-03-06, 23:45

I think the 4th was because he was the one who stopped Kyubbi.

s-class uchiha · 2006-03-07, 01:28

Yes from all indications it seems that Shodai was stronger than Nidaime (considering they were brothers too). However, Nidaime became Hokage while Shodai was alive (they both trained saru) and presuming they are similar in age since they are brothers it would hint that Shodai did eclipse his brother... not conclusive but really confusing.

1) Should we accept the fact that Shodai > Nidaime based on lore and inferences (this is even more based on lore than yondaime!).

2) Shodai was special w/ mokuton and jinchuuriki controling capabilities - Nidaime had no distinguishing features as such (mentioned)

or

3) Should we accept that since yes Nidaime did eclipse his brother and rightfully became Hokage b/c he was the #1 ninja of the village? (but this could be bc Shodai was injured...)

Hard to say, but the lore around Shodai seems sufficient enough for me to think he was stronger and just acquiesced the role to Nidaime to perhaps train Sarutobi more extensively.

Hunter · 2006-03-07, 06:17

No, Nidaime became Hokage when the Shodai died.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

3, He had unbeliveable physical strength

Anime filler.

malvado · 2006-03-10, 11:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The more we know about the 1st the more stronger he seems:
1, only one able to grow entire forests and do any wood jutsu
2, has done the that total darkness genjutsu and was able to catch in it hokage level person
3, He had unbeliveable physical strength
and in the recent chapter:
4, was able to control youma
So he is a strong contender for the strongest. Also the 3rd and 4th.
But the 2nd hokage seems to be a weaker guy, he should be about Kisame's level based on what he has shown when summoned.
My tip is that after the 1st somehow died at young age the 3rd was a child and the 2nd took the title only for a short period to allow the 3rd to grow stronger, but I think he was chosen to be the successor of the 1st from the beginning.
The death of the 1st might have something to do with the MS, maybe somebody like Itachi killed him, maybe the unknown 3rd MS user. And the battle may have been that Kakashi mentioned in the Valley of the end. At least that would connect two story lines

well mr the 2nd was able to create half a river hen he fought against his brother and could control water at his will. the suiton suiryudan didnt come out of his mouth. And when he made sarus katon seem like shit Oro clearly said it was to be expected from a hokage. Plus not to mention he was also praised as one of the greatest ninjas ever. Not just cuz he took the title I think. Otherwise Saru wouldnt be so afraid.

Hunter · 2006-03-10, 14:38

The 2nd statue at the valley of the end doesn't look like Nidaime at all.

Sazelyt · 2006-03-10, 14:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hunter

No, Nidaime became Hokage when the Shodai died.

I remember Sandaime being considered (or told to become) as Hokage when the two were alive. Unfortunately I don't remember where it was (chapter/episode). Maybe I remember it incorrectly, or maybe it was an anime filler.

Also, is there an information on when they died? I always considered them dying around the same time.

Hunter · 2006-03-10, 15:52

You remember correctly and it's partially an anime filler/mistake.
In the manga the Shodai and Nidaime aren't together when they talk to Sarutobi, a first panel shows Shodai talking about the way he sees Konoha's people and then a 2nd panel bellow shows Nidaime saying to Sarutobi that he was going to be the next Hokage.
The anime team showed both the Hokage together talking to Sarutobi, that's the difference.

There is no real information about when or how they died. The 1st Data Book states that Shodai died shortly after the creation of the village and Nidaime inherited then the title. He created the ninja academy and others organizations within the village but died after the Great Ninja War broke out.

2006-02-28, 15:50	Link #65
Hunter Nin. Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2004	Yes, I've never stated otherwise. So what is your argument? Itachi gained MS. Itachi told Sasuke that in order to gain MS he must kill his best friend. Kakashi gained MS, he probably didn't kill his best friend to do so. It's assumed that if you kill your best friend you will definitely gain MS (as this is what Itachi told Sasuke to do). It's possible that if you don't kill your best friend you can still gain MS (as it is unlikely that Kakashi would kill his best friend). So it's possible that when someone kills their best friend they do something that could trigger the development of MS. So in order to gain MS it might be something as simple as "making a really hard decision." Which is what I meant by loophole but that probably wasn't the correct wording. But anyway, we don't know.

2006-03-01, 12:45	Link #66
malvado Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005	what has MS got to do with the strongest Hokage?

2006-03-02, 19:40	Link #67
Hunter Bubbly and super fun Join Date: May 2003 Location: Doesn't look like Kansas	If this manga was darker, the death triggering Kakashi's ability to develop the MS could be his father's by either a murder due to Kakashi's disgust (if Naruto was a lot darker ^^) or Kakashi being his assistant during the suicide. Too bad Naruto's a nice little shounen.

2006-03-02, 19:45	Link #68
Yellow Flash Banned Join Date: Dec 2005	Kakashi wasn't strong enough to kill Sakumo.

2006-03-02, 19:46	Link #69
Illuyankas I need another drink. Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Beer. Boobs. Wait... boobs again.	Doesn't rule out assisted suicide.

2006-03-02, 20:26	Link #70
NaOH 火影級 [h o k a g e LvL] Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: In a jar	3rd is the strongest hokage up todate, PERIOD. How i know? I ask Kishi over the phone. He also told me that 4th was not real, he is just some fanboy's imagination bout some crap... face it.. threads created by YF only leads to his fanboy fantasy bout 4th hokage. You can't convince fanboys because if you ever do, the universe will combust into a blackhole ending all things.

2006-03-05, 05:35	Link #71
brad_le Sleeper RX-7 Join Date: Nov 2004	Shodai is the strongest beacause if it wasn't for him, there wouldn't be a sandaime or a yondaime. If he didn't create Konoha, he wouldn't be able to train Sarutobi, who wouldn't be able to train Oro, Tsunade, or Jiraya, who wouldn't be able to train Yondaime. If it weren't for him there wouldn't be any fanboy topics on who's stronger between Oro and Yondaime. Damn Shodaime the creator of fanboys!!!

2006-03-05, 19:47	Link #73
Ero-Senn1n Senior Member Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Hidden Village of Sake	The more we know about the 1st the more stronger he seems: 1, only one able to grow entire forests and do any wood jutsu 2, has done the that total darkness genjutsu and was able to catch in it hokage level person 3, He had unbeliveable physical strength and in the recent chapter: 4, was able to control youma So he is a strong contender for the strongest. Also the 3rd and 4th. But the 2nd hokage seems to be a weaker guy, he should be about Kisame's level based on what he has shown when summoned. My tip is that after the 1st somehow died at young age the 3rd was a child and the 2nd took the title only for a short period to allow the 3rd to grow stronger, but I think he was chosen to be the successor of the 1st from the beginning. The death of the 1st might have something to do with the MS, maybe somebody like Itachi killed him, maybe the unknown 3rd MS user. And the battle may have been that Kakashi mentioned in the Valley of the end. At least that would connect two story lines

2006-03-06, 23:45	Link #74
EEZP Shonen Fan Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Hamilton, New Jersey Age: 35	I think the 4th was because he was the one who stopped Kyubbi.

2006-03-07, 01:28	Link #75
s-class uchiha Naruto = Painful Join Date: Jan 2006	Yes from all indications it seems that Shodai was stronger than Nidaime (considering they were brothers too). However, Nidaime became Hokage while Shodai was alive (they both trained saru) and presuming they are similar in age since they are brothers it would hint that Shodai did eclipse his brother... not conclusive but really confusing. 1) Should we accept the fact that Shodai > Nidaime based on lore and inferences (this is even more based on lore than yondaime!). 2) Shodai was special w/ mokuton and jinchuuriki controling capabilities - Nidaime had no distinguishing features as such (mentioned) or 3) Should we accept that since yes Nidaime did eclipse his brother and rightfully became Hokage b/c he was the #1 ninja of the village? (but this could be bc Shodai was injured...) Hard to say, but the lore around Shodai seems sufficient enough for me to think he was stronger and just acquiesced the role to Nidaime to perhaps train Sarutobi more extensively.

2006-03-10, 14:38	Link #78
Hunter Bubbly and super fun Join Date: May 2003 Location: Doesn't look like Kansas	The 2nd statue at the valley of the end doesn't look like Nidaime at all.

2006-03-10, 15:52	Link #80
Hunter Bubbly and super fun Join Date: May 2003 Location: Doesn't look like Kansas	You remember correctly and it's partially an anime filler/mistake. In the manga the Shodai and Nidaime aren't together when they talk to Sarutobi, a first panel shows Shodai talking about the way he sees Konoha's people and then a 2nd panel bellow shows Nidaime saying to Sarutobi that he was going to be the next Hokage. The anime team showed both the Hokage together talking to Sarutobi, that's the difference. There is no real information about when or how they died. The 1st Data Book states that Shodai died shortly after the creation of the village and Nidaime inherited then the title. He created the ninja academy and others organizations within the village but died after the Great Ninja War broke out.