Honey and Clover II

[Rion]

Well said, kauldron, it's interesting how people immediately think you want a focus on sex to make the series better. As for me, I "only" want sex to happen as a "side dish" *g* for the sake of realism. (Or to put it like this: I really dislike how Honey & Clover is praised for its realism when it is surely is not realistic at all.)

Oh by the way, the statement "sex is not important for me" and "fapping is a taboo" most likely (say, 99%) comes from a woman. Honey & Clover, however, features more men than women *cough cough*

[Lilith]

Then yeah, the men in H&C masturbate.

Shuuji can't have sex because he wasn't looking for a lover (too focused on Rika and Hagu) and his standards are higher than just having a one night with a hooker.

Takemoto can't have sex because he had a crush on Hagu and is focused on his art level.

Morita... do I even have to say it. Hahah.

Mayama have Rika.

Nomiya probably had sex until he met Ayumi. It was said that he's used to dating and is rumored to be a "player".

So, no sex in H&C. What's unrealistic about that. They didn't show any person's religion, but that doesn't mean they're all athiests, right? Can we say the show is unrealistic because it neglected a major aspect (beliefs and religion)? IMHO, no.

[potholes]

I wonder, do we really need "sex" to to happen as a "side dish" *g* for the sake of realism to really see it as real?

Even without the sex scene we are already debating of its existence in the series. It was suggested subtlely that such scene did happen ~ only most of it was not shown (it was left to your imagination to fill in the blanks).

Do we really need to be presented with the complete sex scene to acknowledge that the element was present in the series? Are we that dense that we need more of the scene just so we can say that "yeah that's real"?

[kauldron26]

Originally Posted by Rion

Well said, kauldron, it's interesting how people immediately think you want a focus on sex to make the series better. As for me, I "only" want sex to happen as a "side dish" *g* for the sake of realism. (Or to put it like this: I really dislike how Honey & Clover is praised for its realism when it is surely is not realistic at all.)

Oh by the way, the statement "sex is not important for me" and "fapping is a taboo" most likely (say, 99%) comes from a woman. Honey & Clover, however, features more men than women *cough cough*

word... lol... i so agree with you. dont get me wrong, love the show, but i hate when people continue to fawn over its realism which lets face it, its utter bull... Ayu as hot as she is has been inlove with the same guy for over 4 years, and still holds on to her feelings after being rejected??? WTF?? and untop of that she not only knows there is no chance in hell, but she knows for a fact that he doesnt love her and never will... and to top it off she knows who he is inlove with. But yet for 4 years plus, she still fawns/obsesses over him and plays out every other guy that hits on her. Pleeeeease.

The scene that pissed me off the most was in season one when a bunch of guys confess to her and she REJECTS EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM. Yet the guys get over it, and then everything is all good. Give me a break, in real life not only would she have been fucked up, but damn man, what kind of stuck up chick wont even give a guy a chance? especially when she cares about them, knows them and knows they care about her? And how pathetic was she when she kept on bitching and moaning about mayama over, and over, and over, and over again?? Shit she doesnt even deserve to be happy after breaking so many hearts without caring about the emotion repercussions on the other end. But yet i love the show.

Dont even let me start with the moral implications of shuu being inlove with his cousin that looks like she's 12, and then Takemoto hiding his feelings for years without looking at anyother girl (even after rejection).
lol.... The show is far from realistic, but i love it simply because of its cathartic moments. Especiall episode 4 with Mayama in Rika. That was powerful as hell. But hey, in the end, i still adore the show.

so is a sex scene necessary?? no. Would it have made certain issues of realism grittier and more explicit? hell yes. One is not dense for wanting a sex scene or requiring a sex scene, considering that sex itself is arguably the most important concept of existence ( it expresses love, and evolves our species) i dont understand how a show that focuses on most if not all the major emotions ala freud and Ekman such as Joy, shame, contempt, fear, anger, sadness, and disgust does not give insight into the catharsis or repercussions of sex. As far as i am concerned there is no way these guys were in college and no one was getting laid. And if u want to say it wasnt important and it might have happened but wasnt shown, are u saying that their sexual actions or choices did not affect them in anyway for it to merit screen time? pleeeeease. If anyone on this board is over 21 or maybe even mature for their age, u know there is no way that thats possible.

All in all, the greatness of honey and clover lies in the fact that it lets us know that the world is a fucked up place with fucked up people and fucked up emotions. In the end, we cant always get what we want, but we can still make and find our own happiness regardless. That ladies and gentlemen is what makes H&C great.

[Rion]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

Give me a break, in real life not only would she have been fucked up, but damn man, what kind of stuck up chick wont even give a guy a chance?

I totally agree with you on everything except for this. I'm not in my thirties yet and still that illusional that I would reject everybody I know that I cannot love. In fact, I made the mistake of not rejecting somebody once I did not love, and most likely will not do that again. So far, only relationship with mutual romantic feelings have been enjoyable for me.

Especiall episode 4 with Mayama in Rika. That was powerful as hell. But hey, in the end, i still adore the show.

Arrr, oh yes! But I believe it is because Honoho, the insert song, had a deep impact on me.

I dont understand how a show that focuses on most if not all the major emotions ala freud and Ekman such as Joy, shame, contempt, fear, anger, sadness, and disgust does not give insight into the catharsis or repercussions of sex.

That's it. Honey & Clover is about love. And since these guys are college students, love is not only about holding hands, but includes sex. I really don't want any explicit sex scenes, but I want the narrator of Takemoto think about sex with Hagu from time to time. And I want Morita show the desire of touching Hagu, as well as Nomiya with Ayu. When you're 20+ years old and male, it's nearly impossible to have this kind of strong romantic feelings without the desire of sex. Not that women are that much different considering the popularity of Mayu Shinjo manga. I want to see sexual desires influencing their characters, resulting in frustration, admiration or whatever.

Personally I don't think that in Honey & Clover, anybody of these guys had sex. Especially not Hagu and Morita in that particular scene (even though I hoped for it). It just is not typical for this series, and considering how the mangaka created such a character like Hagu apparently without knowing what loli is - I believe she did not intent to mix romantic and sexual feelings into this series and probably even is a virgin.

[Theowne]

And I want Morita show the desire of touching Hagu, as well as Nomiya with Ayu.

Actually I'm pretty sure there were some instances of that in the series. For comedy.

As for the topic at hand...I dunno, maybe it isn't realistic. However I probably enjoyed this series more without hearing the characters think about sex all the time.

[Lyannea]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

word... lol... i so agree with you. dont get me wrong, love the show, but i hate when people continue to fawn over its realism which lets face it, its utter bull... Ayu as hot as she is has been inlove with the same guy for over 4 years, and still holds on to her feelings after being rejected??? WTF?? and untop of that she not only knows there is no chance in hell, but she knows for a fact that he doesnt love her and never will... and to top it off she knows who he is inlove with. But yet for 4 years plus, she still fawns/obsesses over him and plays out every other guy that hits on her. Pleeeeease.

I'll tell you a real story. (without name, cause my friend would kill me )
My friend met a girl in a game. The girl in question married his char in the game. You follow me? He fell in love with her and she played with him, making him believe that she loved him. They broke, they came back together...all that INGAME (but on msn she was teasing him, showing him skin...she taught him to masturbate, etc..). And then one day the girl have sex with another boy, she tells my friend she never loved him, she will never come see him, etc... 3 years passed like with the big "NO i dont love you" sign. Things happened... Another year passed, she came back to be friend with him, but he wanted more... This fall he decided to go see her in her country. Again she made it clear she did not want a relationship with him. She said no over and over...but he still love that girl. He even asked people the girl knew to spy her... 4 years of that... And I am pretty sure he won't forget anytime soon... He still keeps one hundred pics of her in his pc, he has her drawing, songs she sang. You thought Ayu was pathetic. When my friend confessed, I thought Ayu was a realistic char.

So you can say it's impossible. I thought that too. But I was wrong.

And as a "writer" I am not against sex but I don't see why there should have if it doesnt help build the story. Why Mayama's scene was so powerful? Because we knew he worked hard to get that girl. Because we don't know if Rika had a lover. If she had, wouldn't it be less powerful..? I mean, Mayama won her heart and her body. He won all. lol I'm also pretty sure Nomiya will get Ayu once she forgets Mayama... (sorry to all those who think it would be a bad couple) I think the strenght of a story is when the story in itself is strong but also when there is a lot of place for imagination. Now everyone who wants sex can imagine what they want in story holes. (the story doesn't present every day) :P

[catcher]

word... lol... i so agree with you. dont get me wrong, love the show, but i hate when people continue to fawn over its realism which lets face it, its utter bull... Ayu as hot as she is has been inlove with the same guy for over 4 years, and still holds on to her feelings after being rejected??? WTF?? and untop of that she not only knows there is no chance in hell, but she knows for a fact that he doesnt love her and never will... and to top it off she knows who he is inlove with. But yet for 4 years plus, she still fawns/obsesses over him and plays out every other guy that hits on her. Pleeeeease.

Perhaps that's not realistic, but if Ayu looked for love somewhere else would it really make it more realistic? Would every person who lost their object of love to someone else really try to look for love someplace else just like that? It would have been a better course of action if Rika and Mayama got married or were officially a couple, but they were not. Rika was slow to open her heart to Mayama, perhaps Ayu was thinking Mayama would be the one to give up (on Rika).

That's it. Honey & Clover is about love. And since these guys are college students, love is not only about holding hands, but includes sex. I really don't want any explicit sex scenes, but I want the narrator of Takemoto think about sex with Hagu from time to time. And I want Morita show the desire of touching Hagu, as well as Nomiya with Ayu. When you're 20+ years old and male, it's nearly impossible to have this kind of strong romantic feelings without the desire of sex. Not that women are that much different considering the popularity of Mayu Shinjo manga. I want to see sexual desires influencing their characters, resulting in frustration, admiration or whatever.

Some more scenes about sex (or thinking about sex) might have been ok, but wouldn't that be a waste of time to show scattered thoughts about that here and there at the expense of other worthy subjects? If sex became a major influence on their characters then perhaps Honey and Clover would have turned out differently, which Chika Umino might not have wanted.

[physics223]

I found it quite realistic (except of course for the SD faces sometimes, but that was for comedic relief). Sex is an important part of every human being's life, but it is not the only part, and it isn't necessary per se to allow a human person or his relationship with other people to flourish. Note the existence of priests and monks.

[k2theEio]

Wow, kauldron, I think that was kinda rough. When it comes to Aya, I don't see anything unrealistic about how she acted throughout both series. [I've seen friends who went through the same process that she did and in a few cases, for longer than 4 years. It's maybe improbable but definitely not impossible. Why would she accept any other guy's feelings knowing that she still loved someone else? I have seen many relationships like that and watched the inevitable trainwreck that followed. Besides, she has no responsibility towards how other guys feel about her. Or would you rather the one of the guys rape her? Believe it or not, it happens more often than you would believe.

As far as hagu, IMO, she did not look 12 to the characters but only to the audience for a purpose. I think there were reasons for it but I won't bore people even though to me it's rather simple. And don't assume your view on morals to be applicable here. Considering in the U.S. that second cousins are freely allowed to marry, I don't have a problem with it and many others don't. You may not like it, but it shouldn't be invalid just for a peace of mind. Perhaps in Japan or in the creator's experience, it's even more acceptable.

And sex.. as an expression of love...? Sure it could be but have you heard of prostitution? Do you really believe that prostitutes are trying to express love for everyone they have sex with? Hell, I had sex with women who in my mind, to put it bluntly, were helping me masturbate and they thought the same too. People have sex for many reasons with expressing love being only one of them. Besides, I've seen people make it through college as virgins for religious or other reasons. It may not be the norm, but that doesn't make it impossible or unrealistic. I used to believe the same thing... that sex... it is so important. But after meeting the girl of my dreams, I realized that as relationships deepen or when someone loves another alot, sex loses some of its importance. But trust me though, it still pretty important So yeah, sex wasn't needed in this case I think. Hagu? No, it would go against her childish, naive somewhat immature character. Could you imagine the outrage if the 12 yr old looking Hagu did have sex? Aya? She was fawning and worrying over Mayama so much that it wouldn't make much sense but sucks for her. Who would have sex? Takemoto and Morita? Shuu and some random chick? The dog and...? Hmm... But on that note, I'm done.

[kauldron26]

lol... it seems like we are all agreeing on the same thing... But it also seems that many of u guys believe in an idealistic form of love, especially when this anime even retorts that concept. Not everyone will meet the love of their life, some people, infact most people will have to grow to love someone. If Ayu did that for Nomiya, why couldnt she do it for one of those guys in season 1??

[Lilith]

Because none of these guys know about her love with Mayama. None of them consulted her the way Nomiya did. None of them told her their dreams while sitting a room viewing the colorful Ferris Wheel.

Besides the fact that Nomiya is one of the characters and those guys are just minors.

[aliensporebomb]

I'll confess I was once in a turbulent romantic relationship that lasted all of
eight months, it seriously took me almost five years to get over the girl and
to return to normalcy. It was a horrible time of my life but I can totally
empathize with Ayu - and she didn't even get to have the fun physical
part with Mayama. It's very possible. Sometimes we get caught in a
cul de sac - that's real. Even I look back and go "how it is possible?"

Then you get caught in something yourself and you go "Oh. I see."
Never say never. It has a way of kicking you in the teeth just when
you expect it least. Or need/want it least.

[kei25]

~~~News~~~
As someone that attended Sugita's birthday event (10/15) said, Kamiya-san will do the voice work of Ep12 in the DVD..
Source: http://heisuke-pachi.jugem.jp/?eid=749

[vinsanity]

kinda old huh

by far one of the best animes i ever saw.

[obentou]

I agree. The ending did leave me with a real empty feeling though for some reason.

[touchthesun]

Originally Posted by kei25

~~~News~~~
As someone that attended Sugita's birthday event (10/15) said, Kamiya-san will do the voice work of Ep12 in the DVD..
Source: http://heisuke-pachi.jugem.jp/?eid=749

For some reason I was hoping & kind of expected they would do this for the DVD release as it would be a bit of a bonus for hardcore fans. Personally, although Nojima Kenji did a wonderful job voicing Takemoto, I really couldn't help but miss hearing Kamiya Hiroshi's rendition. I do hope this information is true. I hope Kamiya-san is well and healthy enough to do it.

I also had doubts about them actually asking Kamiya Hiroshi to redo the voice for ep 12 as it might seem disrespectful to the work done by Nojima Kenji. I hope that is not the case. Afterall Kamiya-san began was Takemoto from the very begining and it is only right for him to complete the task till the very end.

I wonder when there will be official word of this. I sure hope it's true *crosses fingers*

[Lilith]

Ah, I'm very glad about the news of Kamiya Hiroshi! I hope we'll hear a confirmation.

Question about music:
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-...n-70-1j5y.html
What is this? Is "Night & Day" a track in one of the OST but done by the group DEPAPEPE? Or...?

[Kaoru Chujo]

Originally Posted by kauldron26

....Not everyone will meet the love of their life, some people, in fact most people will have to grow to love someone. If Ayu did that for Nomiya, why couldnt she do it for one of those guys in season 1??

Basically because Nomiya is way cooler, smarter, more capable, and more interesting than her osananajimi there. You can't just grow to love anyone. It has to be a right person. Someone at least as strong and interesting and Mayama, for a start. Just as for Hagu, it had to be someone at least as strong and interesting as Morita. As well as all the great reasons given by Lilith.

Loved aliensporebomb's post, too. I have never found Ayu's obsession that difficult to understand. Love and obsession go together, for better and worse.

And I'm so glad Kamiya Hiroshi is better. The link from kei25 says that it was a bicycle accident, and that he almost died, but that he is out of hospital and expects to be back at work before the end of the year. After Kamiya-san's message was read out, Sugita Tomokazu (the guy whose birthday party it was, Kyon in SHnY, etc.) was seen wiping tears from his eyes.

[AisuruMirai]

Originally Posted by Lilith

Question about music:
http://www.play-asia.com/paOS-13-71-...n-70-1j5y.html
What is this? Is "Night & Day" a track in one of the OST but done by the group DEPAPEPE? Or...?

DEPAPEPE are, if the photos I've seen are any guide, two guitarists. They provided some of the BGM for H&C II. I just skimmed through a few episodes, listening for acoustic guitar music, & you can hear DEPAPEPE in ep1 at about 3:30, ep2 at about 8:50, ep8 at about 3:30 (w/ piano accompaniment), etc. I noticed that the band & their songs aren't mentioned in the credits. I don't know whether each episode has an original DEPAPEPE song or if some are reused... It could be that there will be 2 more of these albums.

& by the way, H&C II DVD 1 (limited edition) is coming out on Friday, the 27th!!

じゃ、
アイスル未来