Sword Art Online - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by aToMiC95

So really if you're going to say it is all bullshit or doesn't make sense then at least have the courtesy to both watch the whole series so you don't miss stuff and try using some common knowledge.

I've had these arguments already so I'm not going to bother countering, but I'd appreciate it if you didn't jump to conclusions about what I have or haven't done. I have indeed been watching this show from the beginning and there are people here who can vouch for that.

Also, your arguments for points 1 and 3 don't hold up very well. May want to consider a revision.

Er....some people just have weirdo fetishes like that. See the definition of 'pervert' for more information.

Yeah I know. I was trying to be funny. Apparently in your case it didn't work.

[Rising Dragon]

Wouldn't episode 6 count as a tiny, tiny bit of foreshadowing for Kayaba's appearance in this episode?

[Insane]

Originally Posted by SkullFaerie

What is utterly ridiculous and unacceptable is Sugou's over the top evil villain portrayal which many have pointed out. he villain turned out to be some pathetic, weak clown with nothing to his name that makes him even remotely interesting. Letdown.
It's not that I mind idiots getting their comeuppance, I don't like idiots being made idiots for the sake of being idiots xD (e.g. with the sole intention of making the audience dislike them)

Agree with you though. I think Sugou is too overrated as an antagonist in which he’s placed himself in the evil mastermind position, yet he doesn’t have any of the qualities required to be an evil mastermind. He’s pretty lax when it comes to security and whatever may threaten his plans because in the end he just doesn’t care. He’s a business man whose trying to make off with his bosses daughter and get a profit off of something he’s developing. Sure it’s all morally scrupulous, but he doesn’t see himself as a villain, just as a guy trying to make a lot of money. He doesn’t want to waste time with anything he deems unnecessary when it could be better spent improving his own position. And his sheer arrogance prevents him from ever taking in that people could ever exceed his expectations or at least act differently from what he expects, such as that Kirito would never pick up a VRMMO game ever again, that Asuna would become submissive when put into a damsel in distress role, and that the races in ALO would just continue waging war against each other and never reach the top of Yggdrasill.

[Chiibi]

Originally Posted by Insane

and that the races in ALO would just continue waging war against each other and never reach the top of Yggdrasill.

Speaking of which, when Kirito found out the truth, was anyone else thinking:

"THE CAKE IS A LIE!" ?

Kirito got so mad that Yui-chan had to remind him to get Asuna first! XD

I know it was supposed to be a serious situation but....yeah, that "cake" bit screwed it up for me.
But I also took it as a fun little nod from the director: "Heroic fanboy is still a fanboy." Hehehe XD

[Krono]

Originally Posted by Chiibi

Speaking of which, when Kirito found out the truth, was anyone else thinking:

"THE CAKE IS A LIE!" ?

Kirito got so mad that Yui-chan had to remind him to get Asuna first! XD

I know it was supposed to be a serious situation but....yeah, that "cake" bit screwed it up for me.
But I also took it as a fun little nod from the director: "Heroic fanboy is still a fanboy." Hehehe XD

That was partly because Suguha really wanted the eternal flight thing and he found out the quest for it was a lie. So he was kinda pissed that his sister was being deceived, and her hopes for the game toyed with.

[Esebian]

Originally Posted by Slayerx

in responce to that...



this...
Its true that meories and love have very high value as they are what makes life so worht living. However, in the case of God, we had nothing before he came along and gave us life, but with Kayaba, those 10,000 players already had many good things of immeasurable value and he took most of it away and added and whole mess load of hardships.

Fact of that matter is all those precious memories and bonds they made came at a heavy price. First being the 4,000 who died; This is then followed by all those who only have hateful memories of that place and their lives are worst because of the experience... and then there was the risk involved for those who did not die; the chance of dying was much higher in that place. And even bigger risk is that there was always a possibility that, if Kirito did not end the game when he did, they might have never ended it... how many of those players had dreams they would have to abandon if they were stuck in another world? What about their friends and families they left in the real world? They would never see any of them ever again. Furthermore, there is a possibility that they could have found equally strong bonds and friendships and memories in the real world, making what they gained in SAO to seem much less significant... overall, what they might have gained may not be that great and came with a VERY heavy price and it was not a price they were offered but what was force on to them... and i doubt even a fraction of the players got as much as kirito got out of it

And heck, if you were to look back on everything that happened and say "it was worth it", that would kind of make you a selfish jerk. Afterall people DIED so that you could have those memories... In a way its kinda like saying that you would allow 4,000 poeple to die if it meant you got the chance to meet the love of your life. To make it more personal lets ask kirito which he would pick; Sachi being alive or getting to be with Asuna. Now does that mean kirito can't be happy with what he got? No because its not his fault any of this happened, he was a victim as everyone else; as a victim he deserves to enjoy what ever he can. He only becomes a jerk if he was actually glad all those horrible things happened.

And again to top this all off, we know Kayaba's reasons for all this and they were purely selfish. His goal wasn't to give you fond memories, his goal was to play in his castle and you were one of his toys. The fact that you got ANYTHING out of it is purely incidental. Honestly just look at the man's behavior when asuna died by his blade; he doesn't even care that she's dead. This is man playing with human lives as if they were nothing but mere toys

It pretty much removes all reason to be ok with Kayaba and what he has done. He is a selfish monster and nothing more.

Hmm, you are only looking at one side of the coin:

Yeah, we all know that Kirito had it hard: branded (although by himself) as Beater, the death of all people while boss battles, the death of Sachi and their guild and ofc the killing of Kuradeel.

But even so he found Asuna and, sry to say that, but I doubt they would have met each other if SAO didn't exist...

The point is: he certainly has many negativ memories from that time, but it isn't as like he only has those.

And btw... I don't think that everybody who has joyfull memories of SAO and say that it was better than he/she expected is a selfish jerk.

It's not like everybody made the same experiences as Kirito...take Silica for example, the worst thing that happened to her in SAO was the "death" of Pina, which could be reversed...I dunno but in her place I would have no hate towards Kayaba after 2 years ingame anymore.

Btw I never said I'm ok with Kayaba, but I think there is no problem with not hating him anymore, maybe not for Kirito (although that depends on his way of thinking), but for many other people in SAO.

About the people who were killed in there and the families of the victims...although that analogy isn't the best, do you approve of war?
In most countries of our world people are forced to join the army and although you may think otherwise the situation between somebody on a battlefield and somebody in SAO is entirely the same. The only difference is that in SAO you don't feel pain and that you (at least normally) don't fight against humans.
The problem is the same: you can't see your family and friends anymore and you can die.

On the other hand you can find new friends and people you trust and if you survive you can go back to your family after your time on the battlefield just like in SAO when it's cleared...

So while it is madness what Kayaba did; it's not like he's the only one doing things like that and now you have to ask yourself: do you really hate George W. Bush for example? Because in the end it was his command that startet the Iraq war...

Although that analogy can be seen as too extreme in my opinion it reflects exactly the situation of the SAO survivers.

Originally Posted by Dengar

By the way, to those who think Kayaba is worse than God, answer me this question:

Did any of you ask to be born? Life wasn't given to you, it was forced on you.

Ok, that is a bit extreme xD

Certainly everybody who is dieing in agony ask himself the question if it would be better if he never lived to begin with. Also there are quite many depressed people out there who ask themselves this question everyday.

But oh well thinking about that too hard only leads in circles, because in the end you must come to the conclusion that you hate your parents for giving birth to you and at the same time love them for that...

[zero7090]

iirc in the novel, Kirito did somewhat enjoy the time he was in SAO. That because of SAO he can have bond with so many people which he didnt give a damn in the previous MMO he played.

[Dauerlutscher]

Spoiler for Esebian-long post:

Originally Posted by Esebian

Hmm, you are only looking at one side of the coin:

Yeah, we all know that Kirito had it hard: branded (although by himself) as Beater, the death of all people while boss battles, the death of Sachi and their guild and ofc the killing of Kuradeel.

But even so he found Asuna and, sry to say that, but I doubt they would have met each other if SAO didn't exist...

The point is: he certainly has many negativ memories from that time, but it isn't as like he only has those.

And btw... I don't think that everybody who has joyfull memories of SAO and say that it was better than he/she expected is a selfish jerk.

It's not like everybody made the same experiences as Kirito...take Silica for example, the worst thing that happened to her in SAO was the "death" of Pina, which could be reversed...I dunno but in her place I would have no hate towards Kayaba after 2 years ingame anymore.

Btw I never said I'm ok with Kayaba, but I think there is no problem with not hating him anymore, maybe not for Kirito (although that depends on his way of thinking), but for many other people in SAO.

About the people who were killed in there and the families of the victims...although that analogy isn't the best, do you approve of war?
In most countries of our world people are forced to join the army and although you may think otherwise the situation between somebody on a battlefield and somebody in SAO is entirely the same. The only difference is that in SAO you don't feel pain and that you (at least normally) don't fight against humans.
The problem is the same: you can't see your family and friends anymore and you can die.

On the other hand you can find new friends and people you trust and if you survive you can go back to your family after your time on the battlefield just like in SAO when it's cleared...

So while it is madness what Kayaba did; it's not like he's the only one doing things like that and now you have to ask yourself: do you really hate George W. Bush for example? Because in the end it was his command that startet the Iraq war...

Although that analogy can be seen as too extreme in my opinion it reflects exactly the situation of the SAO survivers.



Ok, that is a bit extreme xD

Certainly everybody who is dieing in agony ask himself the question if it would be better if he never lived to begin with. Also there are quite many depressed people out there who ask themselves this question everyday.

But oh well thinking about that too hard only leads in circles, because in the end you must come to the conclusion that you hate your parents for giving birth to you and at the same time love them for that...

Really dude, your whole post screams of an absurd attempt to justify Kayaba`s inhuman deeds. 10000 people were forced to play a death game, ~4000 people died and god knows how many more people have traumatc experience because this incredible selfish jerk with a god complex wanted to play a game.

War is always something to be despised and is only acceptable if you have no other choice but to defend yourself. In Kayaba`s case, there is absolutely nothing that can justify what he did.

[Oroboro]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

Really dude, your whole post screams of an absurd attempt to justify Kayaba`s inhuman deeds. 10000 people were forced to play a death game, ~4000 people died and god knows how many more people have traumatc experience because this incredible selfish jerk with a god complex wanted to play a game.

War is always something to be despised and is only acceptable if you have no other choice but to defend yourself. In Kayaba`s case, there is absolutely nothing that can justify what he did.

I've said this before, but I think it deserves to be said again.

Acknowledging or being thankful for good things that came from evil deeds is not the same as forgiving or condoning said evil deeds in the first place.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Oroboro

I've said this before, but I think it deserves to be said again.

Acknowledging or being thankful for good things that came from evil deeds is not the same as forgiving or condoning said evil deeds in the first place.

Saying thanks to a mass murder just doesn't appeal to me. People like Kabaya have thrown away every right to receive a thank you or any other form of kindness. After all he has done, he just doesn't deserve anything but a court procedure that would put him in jail till he died. Too bad that he is already dead and got away.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Esebian

Hmm, you are only looking at one side of the coin:

Yeah, we all know that Kirito had it hard: branded (although by himself) as Beater, the death of all people while boss battles, the death of Sachi and their guild and ofc the killing of Kuradeel.

But even so he found Asuna and, sry to say that, but I doubt they would have met each other if SAO didn't exist...

The point is: he certainly has many negativ memories from that time, but it isn't as like he only has those.

And btw... I don't think that everybody who has joyfull memories of SAO and say that it was better than he/she expected is a selfish jerk.

No, having good memories of SAO is not what makes them a selfish jerk, like i said they were victims they deserve anything for what they had to live through. What would make them jerks is if they are, in retrospect, glad SAO happened just because they got those good memories cause that's pretty much the same as being glad that 4000 people died needlessly just so you could get some happy memories. Shit happens, you can't undo the past so you might aswell move forward and enjoy what you gained, but at the same time a moral person will wish those events would have never happened so that those thousands of people could have been spared.

It's not like everybody made the same experiences as Kirito...take Silica for example, the worst thing that happened to her in SAO was the "death" of Pina, which could be reversed...I dunno but in her place I would have no hate towards Kayaba after 2 years ingame anymore.

She should hold no hate against a man that killed 4000 people? She should hold no hate for the man that separated her from her friends and family for years which could have been for the rest her life which could have easily been cut tragically short?
Simple fact is Kayaba placed her life at risk and killed thousands for his own selfish reasons; that alone should be enough reason to hate him. She didn't need a DEATH game to have her bond with Pina

[mod edit: removed spoiler; it may be revealed later in the anime]

About the people who were killed in there and the families of the victims...although that analogy isn't the best, do you approve of war?
In most countries of our world people are forced to join the army and although you may think otherwise the situation between somebody on a battlefield and somebody in SAO is entirely the same. The only difference is that in SAO you don't feel pain and that you (at least normally) don't fight against humans.
The problem is the same: you can't see your family and friends anymore and you can die.

On the other hand you can find new friends and people you trust and if you survive you can go back to your family after your time on the battlefield just like in SAO when it's cleared...

So while it is madness what Kayaba did; it's not like he's the only one doing things like that and now you have to ask yourself: do you really hate George W. Bush for example? Because in the end it was his command that startet the Iraq war...

Although that analogy can be seen as too extreme in my opinion it reflects exactly the situation of the SAO survivers.

Yes people do get drafted into wars, and you can form strong bonds... however these soldiers do not come to tolerate the monsters that started the war that got them drafted in wars they never wanted to fight; whether it was their own government that started the war, or the enemy side that started it and forced/encouraged the your government to fight back. Honestly it would be like those soldiers coming to tolerate the actions of bin Laden or hitler; after if they didn't kill so many people those soldiers wouldn't have gotten the experiences they got. Any positive experiences they might have is not enough for them to forgive these monsters for what they did and tolerate them. And yes, i do hate bush for starting the Iraq war; though he's a less accurate example seeing as those troops were volunteers and also atleast some could rationalize the war to remove a ruthless dictator which would make the war seem less selfish which would make bush's actions in their eyes more tolerable... but in Kayaba's case, his draftee's include innocent women, children and elderly, and there was no good reason for what he did it as his reasons were purely 100% selfish


Also in SAO they DO feel pain... its very clear from the look on their faces that loosing HP DOES hurt.

Originally Posted by Oroboro

I've said this before, but I think it deserves to be said again.

Acknowledging or being thankful for good things that came from evil deeds is not the same as forgiving or condoning said evil deeds in the first place.

Yes, but part of this debate is Kirito's behavior and attitude towards Kayaba which DOES some to come off as condoning his evil deeds. He can be thankful for what he got from his horrible experience, but that should not mean for him to condone what Kayaba has done to him and thousands of others for his own selfish reasons.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Esebian

Ok, that is a bit extreme xD

Certainly everybody who is dieing in agony ask himself the question if it would be better if he never lived to begin with. Also there are quite many depressed people out there who ask themselves this question everyday.

But oh well thinking about that too hard only leads in circles, because in the end you must come to the conclusion that you hate your parents for giving birth to you and at the same time love them for that...

Well, I kind of just wanted to point out the fact that people in the real world really have no say in the matter of being born.

[Esebian]

Also in SAO they DO feel pain... its very clear from the look on their faces that loosing HP DOES hurt.

SAO has the same system as ALO has, a pain absorbing one... but look at Eugene as he is beaten by Kirito; does his face imply he has no pain at all?

You don't feel pain, BUT your brain tells yourself that you should feel pain if your struck by a sword, so it's more or less the exact opposite of phantom limb pain.

The pain itself only comes from your imagination

Really dude, your whole post screams of an absurd attempt to justify Kayaba`s inhuman deeds. 10000 people were forced to play a death game, ~4000 people died and god knows how many more people have traumatc experience because this incredible selfish jerk with a god complex wanted to play a game.

War is always something to be despised and is only acceptable if you have no other choice but to defend yourself. In Kayaba`s case, there is absolutely nothing that can justify what he did.

Hmm, I dunno how often I have to say that...I TOTALLY DO NOT APPROVE KAYABA'S ACTIONS!!!

What I approve is that you can be thankfull for the good things that came out of that crisis without having a bad feeling like being selfish or sth like that.

Yes, but part of this debate is Kirito's behavior and attitude towards Kayaba which DOES some to come off as condoning his evil deeds. He can be thankful for what he got from his horrible experience, but that should not mean for him to condone what Kayaba has done to him and thousands of others for his own selfish reasons.

We saw them talking to each other for like what, 10 minutes?

The first time he just fired all his rage into beating him, so I can understand that he doesn't want to argue anymore, also he thought that he would die anyways.

The second time he helped him for real to accomplish his aim just as he needed help.
I dunno if I then would think of condemn him in that moment.

The time will show if he will forgive Kayaba or not...

[mod edit: ...I removed the spoiler here too. You cannot talk at all about anything that hasn't happened yet in an anime thread, not even as a hint.]

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by Esebian

Hmm, I dunno how often I have to say that...I TOTALLY DO NOT APPROVE KAYABA'S ACTIONS!!!

What I approve is that you can be thankfull for the good things that came out of that crisis without having a bad feeling like being selfish or sth like that.

The flaw in your argument is that those "good things" could have easily happened without Kabaya's fucked up death game. His game was not necessary for that at all. Thousands of lifes were just destroud for nothing.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

The flaw in your argument is that those "good things" could have easily happened without Kabaya's fucked up death game. His game was not necessary for that at all. Thousands of lifes were just destroud for nothing.

Not exactly. Think back to episode 11 when Asuna was talking about how she fell in love with Kirito. The death game wasn't pointless, it had a large part in the amplification of their feelings for one another.

Hypothetically, if I myself met the woman I'd love for the rest of my life through a life-threatening death game and surviving it, I sure as hell wouldn't be entirely full of contempt for the person who organized it because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't be experiencing such present happiness.

In the end it doesn't justify what Kayaba did and he does deserve to be imprisoned for life or executed for the severity of his crime, but c'mon, Kayaba had a large part towards Kazuto and Asuna's current happiness. It's undeniable.

[relentlessflame]

(Edit: A bit late... )

I just want to rewind back to the start of the conversation for a moment and point out that, when Kazuto thanked Kayaba, it was only because he gave him the Admin powers needed to save Asuna, which Kayaba didn't by any means have to do. Although we've branched out into a broader discussion, we shouldn't really interpret this as any sort of thanks for anything else. He may still think Kayaba is a monster, but in this one case he did Kazuto a favour -- though not without a reason (because if Sugou had been allowed to take everything from Kazuto, Kazuto wouldn't want anything to do with The Seed). There wasn't really any point in getting angry at him at that moment, particularly since it wasn't going to change anything now (and, from Kazuto's perspective, what just happened is finally going to allow him to move on).

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

The flaw in your argument is that those "good things" could have easily happened without Kabaya's fucked up death game. His game was not necessary for that at all. Thousands of lifes were just destroud for nothing.

Not those specific good things though. For example, the odds of Kazuto meeting Asuna, or them both meeting Yui, are basically zero if not for SAO. Now, who knows what other good stuff could have happened to them in that same time. And also, you might say that the good that happened to "a few" people (let's assume?) doesn't outweigh the bad that happened to many... but, at the same time, it doesn't take away the good either.

I don't think it's "flawed logic", just that you're pointing out two different things that happened at once and both are true. They don't cancel each other out.

[Dauerlutscher]

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Not exactly. Think back to episode 11 when Asuna was talking about how she fell in love with Kirito. The death game wasn't pointless, it had a large part in the amplification of their feelings for one another.

Hypothetically, if I myself met the woman I'd love for the rest of my life through a life-threatening death game and surviving it, I sure as hell wouldn't be entirely full of contempt for the person who organized it because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't be experiencing such present happiness.

In the end it doesn't justify what Kayaba did and he does deserve to be imprisoned for life or executed for the severity of his crime, but c'mon, Kayaba has a large part towards Kazuto and Asuna's current happiness. It's undeniable.

People fall in love without beaing forced to play a game where they can die anytime. So, no, this death game was never necessary for that to happen.

@relentlessflame
I'm talking not about SAO a simple game but about the death aspect in the game.

[SilverSyko]

Originally Posted by Dauerlutscher

People fall in love without beaing forced to play a game where they can die anytime. So, no, this death game was never necessary for that to happen.

Well according to Asuna, the fact it was a death game was an important factor for her to realize her feelings for Kazuto, and we can assume vice-versa as well.

Who's to say they still would have fallen in love if SAO wasn't a death game? The show seems to suggest that's a much slimmer possibility.

[Oroboro]

Without the aspect of death and being forced to stay there, SAO would never have been anything but a game, one where you log on, have fun, then log out again when the day is over.

Kayaba's goal was to make a world that could be taken as and accepted as [reality], and the only way to do that was to make the consequences equal to those in reality. So all in all, the philosophies Kirito and Asuna came to espouse are exactly what Kayaba wanted from the beginning.

Again, this isn't an attempt to justify what was done, or say that it was right. But the death game has its place in the grand scheme of things.

Kayaba doesn't regret what he did, and he's still a monster. But on the same note, I don't think Kirito and Asuna don't regret the 2 years they spent in SAO, and I imagine if they were given the chance to go back in time and avoid putting on the NervGear (Under the assumption the incident still happens anyway), they would both refuse.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by Esebian

SAO has the same system as ALO has, a pain absorbing one... but look at Eugene as he is beaten by Kirito; does his face imply he has no pain at all?

You don't feel pain, BUT your brain tells yourself that you should feel pain if your struck by a sword, so it's more or less the exact opposite of phantom limb pain.

The pain itself only comes from your imagination

You kinda confusing "pain" and "Injury". Pain is a feeling nothing more, while an injury is the physical wound itself... in a way you can have pain without injury and you can injury without pain. In a sense the fact that pain is imaginary is irrelevant because it FEELS real. While it is good that none of their injuries would be permanent, the fact that they can still feel pain is pretty horrible. I mean as we saw, that one guy from laughing coffin was using that imaginary pain to sadistically torment Kirito... at that moment, the pain being imaginary didn't matter.

Not to mention that while the players might not suffer physical injuries (not counting having their brains fried), their physical bodies were still suffering form being in the game for so long. Being stuck in a bed for years will cause a great deal of deterioration that would take months of rehabilitation to recover... even when you get out, it may be months (depending on how long they were stuck inside the game before someone won) before you can go out for a simple walk on your own.

We saw them talking to each other for like what, 10 minutes?

The first time he just fired all his rage into beating him, so I can understand that he doesn't want to argue anymore, also he thought that he would die anyways.

That rage should not just be dropping off the face of the earth. There would still be tension, he should still be upset and more judgmental. Heck what makes things worst is in the end kirito and Asuna seemed to be SYMPATHIZING with his selfish dream, even though that selfish dream got them both killed (or so they thought) along with about 4000 others. You do not sympathize with selfish monsters

The second time he helped him for real to accomplish his aim just as he needed help.
I dunno if I then would think of condemn him in that moment.

As I said in an earlier post; the tone of voice a chacter uses and their attitude towards another characters speaks of their history together. If Kirito had not forgiven kayaba, if he hated him for what he did and thought what he did was monsterous, he would not regard him with such calm. His return would create a very tense atmosphere; you would be able to hear the anger and frustration in kirito's voice, or even something as simple as a long angry stare. A long silence aswell can speak for their past... frankly Kirito's tone of voice and what he says makes it almost seems as he still holds a certain level of admiration and respect for a selfish monster that treated him and thousands of others like his personal play things.... and agina, this isn't the first time heroes and villains teamed up, but usually such team ups have a great deal of tension; you can tell the hero is upset with them, in his voice and action you can feel his feelings for the villian, he may even hate that he must rely on an enemy for help... All in all, you can tell that the bad blood remains... but not with kirito towards kayaba.

Originally Posted by SilverSyko

Hypothetically, if I myself met the woman I'd love for the rest of my life through a life-threatening death game and surviving it, I sure as hell wouldn't be entirely full of contempt for the person who organized it because if it wasn't for them I wouldn't be experiencing such present happiness.

And how will you feel when you remember that the bastard didn't just skew with your life like a cheap toy, but did the same to thousands of others which resulted in thousands of deaths. I'd expect that such a person would still hold him with a great deal of contempt and treat him like the monster he is, rather than doing the opposite and sympathizing with his selfish dreams which was the source of so much pain, suffering and death