Gundam in the US / Canada

[hobbes_fan]

I'm in Australia but there s somewhat of a similar situation here.

RE: Complaints about visual edits. Damn, so what if the guns look like super soakers. You still know its a weapon for killing no matter what it looks like. It's not like the Gundams are realistic weapons anyway and the edits particularly for Seed are unnoticeable unless you own the DVD's. The Flay/Kira, scene please, it was frivolous fan service at best and the story wasn't altered in anyway. The non plot altering edits aren't the core issue.

But asides from that the problem think Gundam in particular has is finding it's market in the US. Some themes are just too adult for kids, so it can't be shown at a more kid friendly time and station. But at the same time the adults who were into the series because of its adult themes will scream for blood if there are any more edits. Let's face it, kids are generally the driving force behind any popular series.

With the Older series of gundam, I don't think its an issue of animation quality (which is still decent IMO and was probably cutting edge for its time). Why do I say this? Well let's see, Transformers (the original series none of the bastard spinoffs) is still extremely popular and of similar quality with kids seeing it for the 1st time and adults who are reliving their childhood. Key difference? There are some fairly graphic scenes in the the UC gundam era.They either "kiddify" it or use an appropriate delivery method (SCI FI channel, World Movies whch show a fair amount of anime anyway and the like). By showing it on CN you are instantly handcuffed by restrictions. It is a channel designed to target kids after all.

Personally as much as it will mess up the timeline, I'd focus on getting the feature length OVA's and shorter Gundam Series' like 0083, 0080 and the 8th MS team on. Production values for the shorter series and ova's are almost generally higher especially with 80's, 90's anime. Being shorter, these series' should be cheaper to purchase and allocate a time slot to. Face it 40+eps is a big commitment for TV stations.

Also I'm of the belief that mecha anime in general is out of favour at the moment at least from what I see. It's a cyclical thing though, Mecha in the early 80's, Shonen in the late 80's, The "mon" (poke, digi etc) phase of the 90's and currently the loli and shonen in the 2000's. Mecha is making somewhat of a comeback but by no means is it the dominant genre in the past. Note the lack of fanfare for the 25th anniversary of the Macross franchise. Probably the 2nd most recognizable mecha franchise in anime and encompassing a similar fanbase. I don't remember much either for the Gundam 25th in 2004.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

But asides from that the problem think Gundam in particular has is finding it's market in the US. Some themes are just too adult for kids, so it can't be shown at a more kid friendly time and station. But at the same time the adults who were into the series because of its adult themes will scream for blood if there are any more edits. Let's face it, kids are generally the driving force behind any popular series.

The Gundam TV shows are meant for children. The problem isn't that they're too adult, it's that what can be broadcast for children is very different between Japan and the U.S. Part of the problem was that Bandai insisted that Seed be made appropriate for children, but it was still in a timeslot where they wouldn't normally watch TV.

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

With the Older series of gundam, I don't think its an issue of animation quality (which is still decent IMO and was probably cutting edge for its time). Why do I say this? Well let's see, Transformers (the original series none of the bastard spinoffs) is still extremely popular and of similar quality with kids seeing it for the 1st time and adults who are reliving their childhood.

Transformers are a very poor comparison to Gundam. The former has both nostalgia value for older viewers and lots of new products to attract younger viewers. I think that the animation for Zeta onwards is pretty decent, but it's quite dated in terms of style and pacing. Moreover, a twenty-year old show is really a hard-sell for broadcasters and advertisers. Remember that as far as they, and the majority of the North American audience is concerned, there's absolutely nothing special about the Gundam franchise.

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

Personally as much as it will mess up the timeline, I'd focus on getting the feature length OVA's and shorter Gundam Series' like 0083, 0080 and the 8th MS team on. Production values for the shorter series and ova's are almost generally higher especially with 80's, 90's anime. Being shorter, these series' should be cheaper to purchase and allocate a time slot to. Face it 40+eps is a big commitment for TV stations.

It's the other way around. Longer series are better for most stations since they can be "stripped" - played every day. This is the reason why Robotech was edited together: Macross by itself wasn't long enough.

Another consideration is that shorter shows have a hard time building up the kind of critical mass needed to make a franchise suceed. A thirteen episode show broadcast weekly will finish its run in just three months, and the enthusiasm for it will pretty much end at the same time it does. A fifty episode show, on the other hand, will run for a whole year. Generally, that's enough time to build a real fanbase. As a result, short TV shows don't usually make it on air unless it's either an original work, or if there's something unusual about it.

[hobbes_fan]

See, I'm seeing generally 13-26 episodes and one shot specials more often on Australian TV (As all our anime is a direct import of CN and Sci Fi channel from the US as well as following general anime trends in the US as well as having the general template for censorship). Ninja Scroll OVA has been on a couple of times, Akira (which is a bit of different case as it carries massive rep even for non anime audiences) Sol Bianca as well as the usual Ghibli classics are easily shown on FTA channels and cable movie channels. As a result of these one shot deals, people generally clamored for more. Ok granted there isn't a lot of anime shown still on Aus Free To Air TV, the substantial interest has forced at least a channel to schedule anime on a semi-regular basis. (1-2 shorter series a year as opposed to 0 previously and generally more OVA's on palatable time slots). Because right now as you said unless you're a dedicated anime fan, Gundam is a fairly unknown quantity to casual observers. If you have it on DVD you're more likely to bitch about the shoddy editing on TV and not watch it. The one shot specials are more likely to engage the casual viewer particularly for the older series as well as newer series.

As for the Transformers comparison, that was only in terms of animation quality. (Although Gundam has a truckload more merchandise IMO). I don't hear many people (if any) complaining about the animation. Particularly from first time viewers. And I believe the UC Gundam series' are of similar quality in animation. But I'm in the minority and find the old style cel animation superior to the digital era. In terms of style and chracter.

The Robotech Saga, well also remember that was on at primetime slots for kids. (3-4pm generally right after school AFAIR in the mid 80's) Also edited to the same extent of Seed. You don't see heads being severed in the 1st Macross transformation sequence, and no nude Minmay shower scenes for example. Bloodless deaths and generally toning down of the love story and relationships making it more palatable for western audiences. (Roy is far less of a lecherous bastard in Robotech)

Although in response to your comment about longer series' being preferred I do agree to a point, particularly when the broadcasters have a demand for a Mon-Fri series as was with Robotech. The longer series tend to run 4-5 times a week outside of Japan as opposed to once a week. Currently One peice and Naruto are shown 4-5 times a week as an example, same with DBZ here. Robotech ran in the Philippines where I lived at the time 5 days a week much the same as in the US I think for 2 seasons for a total of 20 weeks or so. It was a direct feed via satellite from what I remember. However if they're only showing one episode per week as was the case with Gundam Seed (according wiki) it'd be much more conducive IMO to run a shorter series. Why? Well to wait a year to get any sort of resolution is a mighty long time to wait. Having watched Seed twice, I would've dropped it f I had to wat almost a month to see any serious action. At a 13-26 week run once a week you're not going to get a lot of schedule changes and there's a sense of urgency to watch every episode, the pacing is faster. I could see them using a longer series for kids timeslots on a Mon - Fri basis, but if they're targeting adults on a weekly basis, which I think is the case considering it's timeslots, it might be an idea to try. Well that's my opinion at least.

Just to clarify isn't there traditional seasonal schedules in the US? Like a winter TV schedule and a summer schedule?

[Phantom-Takaya]

I personally don't think it's a lost cause for us in the US. I've always been one for most of the Gundam series. My brother and two cousins also watch the different series, and they're of various ages and that's only within my family. I know at least ten or more people (I'm too anti-social to really interact with a lot of people to begin with) in the city I'm in who I know are, at the very least, willing to watch the series. It's a fact that when I go on trips, I always come across someone who knows their Gundam series fairly well. Then of course, there's the internet. Chatrooms, forums, sites, etc.

I think the current problem is that there's not enough Gundam series being churned out to keep us hooked. Then there's some series that have questionable plots that make the story not really entertaining at all. And we can't leave out the fact that as time passes by, the old and new viewers are getting older. Their schedules are more focused in the real world and our interest level in some things are not like they used to be.

[rpgman1]

I see that the Gundam series is really a lost cause here in the US. After the disaster of SEED, we never get to see Destiny here because Bandai USA knows it'll bomb on Cartoon Network with all the edits. It's either this network or none. Gundam is a huge franchise in Japan, but it hasn't catch on anywhere else. It could be on the Sci-Fi channel, but it'll be aired so late in the night that the series will never be popular here.

[Deacon Blues]

The reason why Gundam Wing was so popular is because of the super sentai themes that it possessed. You had five characters in five Gundams, etc. That is the only kind of programming that will hook children, mainly thanks to power rangers from back in the day.

[thephreak]

if im not mistaken, isnt there an anime network that is available at extra cost? and Cartoon Network as of late have not been airin anything worth watchin for me really, so its not just Gundam thats not being shown any love here.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

The one shot specials are more likely to engage the casual viewer particularly for the older series as well as newer series.

Movies and short OVAs can be quite successful, but all of the Gundam ones are already fairly old, and they tend to be very ineffective at building a fanbase. Unfortunately, Bandai has mostly been trying to create that fanbase by appealing to children.

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

As for the Transformers comparison, that was only in terms of animation quality. (Although Gundam has a truckload more merchandise IMO). I don't hear many people (if any) complaining about the animation. Particularly from first time viewers. And I believe the UC Gundam series' are of similar quality in animation. But I'm in the minority and find the old style cel animation superior to the digital era. In terms of style and chracter.

If it weren't for nostalgia, nobody would air Transformers either. As far as I can tell, the UC shows after Mobile Suit Gundam are better graphically than Transformers, but I doubt that that'll make any difference.

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

The Robotech Saga, well also remember that was on at primetime slots for kids. (3-4pm generally right after school AFAIR in the mid 80's) Also edited to the same extent of Seed. You don't see heads being severed in the 1st Macross transformation sequence, and no nude Minmay shower scenes for example. Bloodless deaths and generally toning down of the love story and relationships making it more palatable for western audiences. (Roy is far less of a lecherous bastard in Robotech)

And there you have the main difference. Robotech was edited for children, but it was also placed in a timeslot where the main audience was children. This makes sense. Seed, on the other hand, was edited for children, but it was broadcast late on Saturday nights, when there wouldn't be anywhere near as many children watching. This doesn't make sense. Another big difference is that Robotech aired in an era where there really wasn't anything else like it on North American television. The same cannot be said for Seed. The latter needed every edge it could in order to distinguish itself from the crowd, and the very different receptions in Canada and the U.S. suggests that the editing had a very negative effect.

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

However if they're only showing one episode per week as was the case with Gundam Seed (according wiki) it'd be much more conducive IMO to run a shorter series. Why? Well to wait a year to get any sort of resolution is a mighty long time to wait. Having watched Seed twice, I would've dropped it f I had to wat almost a month to see any serious action. At a 13-26 week run once a week you're not going to get a lot of schedule changes and there's a sense of urgency to watch every episode, the pacing is faster. I could see them using a longer series for kids timeslots on a Mon - Fri basis, but if they're targeting adults on a weekly basis, which I think is the case considering it's timeslots, it might be an idea to try. Well that's my opinion at least.

Striping short series is a very bad idea in my opinion. Not only are there scheduling issues, but by the time you've managed to create any buzz, the show would already be over. There's also no time to get the tie-ins, merchandising, or corporate sponsorship going. It's okay if it's just a one-off experiment, but not if you're trying to build a fanbase.

Originally Posted by hobbes fan

Just to clarify isn't there traditional seasonal schedules in the US? Like a winter TV schedule and a summer schedule?

I believe that the schedule is set quarterly.

Originally Posted by Phantom-Takaya

I think the current problem is that there's not enough Gundam series being churned out to keep us hooked. Then there's some series that have questionable plots that make the story not really entertaining at all. And we can't leave out the fact that as time passes by, the old and new viewers are getting older. Their schedules are more focused in the real world and our interest level in some things are not like they used to be.

I think that Bandai itself realizes that as well. That's why they said, in a recent interview, that they were looking at making a future Gundam work that would appeal more to American audiences. I wouldn't exactly get my hopes up though - Japanese corporations have generally shown that they have no idea how American audiences work.

Originally Posted by thephreak

if im not mistaken, isnt there an anime network that is available at extra cost? and Cartoon Network as of late have not been airin anything worth watchin for me really, so its not just Gundam thats not being shown any love here.

I believe that you're referring to the Anime Network, which is owned by ADV. I think that, based on corporate affiliations, it's safe to say that no Gundam work will ever see it's first run on this station. Besides, a niche channel like this is a very poor choice if the goal is to make Gundam the next big thing.

[hobbes_fan]

I think you've confused what I said. Strip a long series ie SEED with heavy edits (Show it daily) but use a shorter series for ONCE a week showing. IE 13 episodes over 13 weeks, 26 episodes over 26 weeks ONCE a week, to tie in with quarterly schedules using current broadcasting trends similar with what was done with NGE. You can't show a 13 episode series daily, I'd have to be insane to say that.

Actually speaking of which the DVD's of the older series are getting harder to find?

[Pepperidge]

I don't think it's just a matter of editing that allowed the show to do better in Canada, it's the fact that mecha in general seems to be more popular up here. Whereas in the US most of the newer Transformer cartoons couldn't even sustain themselves in their Toonami timeslots without what amounted to infomercial-like aggression from Hasbro (since they just bought the 7:00pm timeslot from CN at one point), all of them were huge hits on YTV. Likewise, Eureka seveN (which will be returning with new episodes on June 1!) has been at least marginally more successful in Canada than in the US. The Bandai reps at SakuraCon were genuinely amazed at how popular mecha shows tended to be in Canada.

Perhaps there's a political element to it as well? The sentiment towards war that Gundam in general carries may not have helped things in America, although the attitude tends to be quite different in Canada. Not to mention the not-so-subtle anti-American sentiments that SEED carries.

[D-KLAC]

look i say that maybe start a rally or protest to bring back gs series & this time gs series unedited version!!!

besides look at the other tv shows it sort of like gs series.

[hobbes_fan]

Err were not talking just about Seed, We're talking about the entire franchise in general.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by Pepperidge

I don't think it's just a matter of editing that allowed the show to do better in Canada, it's the fact that mecha in general seems to be more popular up here. Whereas in the US most of the newer Transformer cartoons couldn't even sustain themselves in their Toonami timeslots without what amounted to infomercial-like aggression from Hasbro (since they just bought the 7:00pm timeslot from CN at one point), all of them were huge hits on YTV. Likewise, Eureka seveN (which will be returning with new episodes on June 1!) has been at least marginally more successful in Canada than in the US. The Bandai reps at SakuraCon were genuinely amazed at how popular mecha shows tended to be in Canada.

Perhaps there's a political element to it as well? The sentiment towards war that Gundam in general carries may not have helped things in America, although the attitude tends to be quite different in Canada. Not to mention the not-so-subtle anti-American sentiments that SEED carries.

You make a fascinating point. I know that the viewership for the Cartoon Network and YTV are different, but I've always thought that YTV caters more to girls, so that'd be a point in favor of CN. But your point really suggests that it's the other way around. I wonder why there'd be such a disparity between the two countries: is it because of a cultural difference, or a matter of different BS&P, or is it just because YTV has been that much better at nurturing their mecha shows?

[Pepperidge]

Well, YTV doesn't really cater anymore to girls than, say, Nick stations do in the States. Of course, if they did, they'd be playing shoujo. (Although I still think such shows would be successful on YTV!)

I think another big factor is that YTV actually directly caters to 12-17 viewers with their anime block, whereas CN doesn't target that audience at all. Obviously that's the group where most Gundam fans would lie, and the franchise has had more success expanding because of it. Whatever the reason may be, the Bandai reps at SakuraCon also told me that Gundam's success in Canada ultimately does nothing to influence the series on a production or marketing level. It seems that since the show is a failure in the US, nothing else really matters.

At this point, my only hope is that the future of Gundam is good enough that this success may actually lead to something, and justify Canadians in having to sit through the last ten episodes of Destiny!

[Ryuujin]

I don't think editing was the problem (especially since iirc a lot of the edits were pretty understandable). Lots of shoes with worse editing have done better than SEED ever did (even 4Kids' dub of One Piece, and you can't get much more edited than that...)

Seed, on the other hand, was edited for children, but it was broadcast late on Saturday nights, when there wouldn't be anywhere near as many children watching. This doesn't make sense.

It was, I think, a casualty of Toonami's move to Saturdays. It's pretty evident it had originally been intended to air in an afternoon timeslot...

The franchise as a whole, on the other hand, that was mostly Bandai screwing up. They tried to treat America like Japan (with their fanatical love of early UC and especially the OYW), and failed. If they'd followed Wing up with X, things might have been very different...

[Crusader]

I could See Gundam X doing okay over here, it wouldn't take so much editing to make it work either. It does have that flashy feel of wing as well. not to mention, They could more than likely air it during the days, With the same advertising Wing got. Wing was heavily advertised back when ti was airing.

Seed's disco guns i could deal with, but they didn't get good advertising, and that seemed to be a problem. It was like they didn't care that they had it. The only anime they really advertise on cartoon network is Naruto. I hardly see any advertising for Bleach, Blood+, TB, or even eurka seven.

They use to advertise Zatchbell a lot, as well as one piece, but they don't do that anymore. They barely advertised Scryed.

They don't even advertise Inuyasha, and i thought that was thier baby. I guess that Naruto comes first for them.

[D-KLAC]

Originally Posted by hobbes_fan

Err were not talking just about Seed, We're talking about the entire franchise in general.

hello i was talking about gs series!!!

besides wing got away with being unedited while gs series got totally screwed by the u.s. tv & the FCC!!!

besides how wing get unedit while gs & other gundam got edited?!

[Phantom-Takaya]

As far as I know, Wing got edited for the language. I'm not sure how SEED got edited other than the language, though. Or do you mean the shower scenes that seems to usually have no bearing to the story?

[D-KLAC]

hello gs series got literally screwed by u.s. tv & FCC besides they include this garbage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Guns that stupid DISCO GUNS!!!

besides this is not the 70s & also edits, censors, cuts of opening & endings songs, etc edits garbage that fact is that gs series got SCREWED by the u.s. tv networks & FCC!!!

[hobbes_fan]

Originally Posted by D-KLAC

hello gs series got literally screwed by u.s. tv & FCC besides they include this garbage http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disco_Guns that stupid DISCO GUNS!!!

besides this is not the 70s & also edits, censors, cuts of opening & endings songs, etc edits garbage that fact is that gs series got SCREWED by the u.s. tv networks & FCC!!!

Does it alter the plot? How long is it on screen for? Does the edit change the fact that it's a weapon? Iy's not like they altered to a harmless bannana. Have a look at what's in Seed and what was taken out. Did those thngs that were taken out of SEED present in Wing? As I said the nudity is superficial fanservice which doesn't make a lot of difference. You'd have to be completely ignorant to not realize that it is a weapon. After all these censorship restrictions are in place across the board. Not just for Gundam.

Have a look at wing again, and yes I have the boxset. Even unedited is there any nudity? Look at the weapons again, are they even a realistic portrayal of weapons. And by your reasoning we shouldn't be watching Seed either, after all it was made 5 years ago. And honestly, if you think shortening OP/ED sequences are a major issue and a detriment to watching you're more than likely ignoring Mr Yamato's constant beam spam and heavily re-used battle scenes.

In general, plenty of other series make a name for themselves despite edits. It's something every series goes through. GS isn't the only one. Now its been shafted by timeslot issues, but by adding the nudity, adding the gunplay, you instantly crucify GS into late late night viewing. You are in effect restricting access to a show with already limited support. The edits are actually helping Seed get a more reasonable timeslot allowing for easier access.