2012-07-25, 22:08 | Link #341 | |||
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Losing a planet in a solar system with no life in it is obviously very different than losing Earth. Quote:
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Objectively, they are villains. They needlessly cause severe harm to innocent people.
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2012-07-25, 22:18 | Link #343 | |
The Opened Ultimate Gate
Join Date: Dec 2011
Age: 29
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someone did the calculations on Energy generation here
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2012-07-25, 23:12 | Link #344 |
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Join Date: Oct 2007
Age: 35
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That was a pointless and presupposition-filled article the first time it was written. The author even points it out himself, it is extremely likely (more like essentially stated with Kyuubey's "quota" line) that the humans are not at all the only sentient species the Incubators are mining for energy. There was never any point in using the numbers provided even as remote estimates.
In any case, it is extremely difficult to at all consider the Incubator's truly "emotionless". If a species were truly completely rational/objective, why would they even care about the end of the universe? In all likelihood, the Incubators are merely acting for their own benefit and survival of their species. It's not that they are really all that different from humans, they are simply billions of years more advanced in technology and sentience to the point that human worries and suffering appear completely insignificant to them. Sort of similarly to the way humans treat/perceive cows. There's hardly a matter of "morality" here, races with higher sentience/greater technology will always exploit others. So the humans exploit livestock, so the Incubators exploit humanity. I think it is hypocritical to apply any sort of moral judgement on the Incubators; the only thing that any individual can do is, acknowledging the limitations of their own potential/abilities, decide to protect what's important to them. For Madoka: humans, Mitakihara town, Magical Girls--they were worth protecting. And that's all; she did not presume to make any judgement on the Incubators because she clearly is not in any sort of position to do so. In the spirit of this, I don't expect at all for the final Madoka movie to attempt any further "retribution" towards the Incubators. |
2012-07-26, 00:06 | Link #345 | |||
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That's also why it's not hypocritical for us to make moral judgements on the actions of the Incubators. We have every right to make moral judgements on the actions of beings that display a willingness to wipe us out entirely just for energy collection. Some people here would really benefit from watching Star Trek. Star Trek grapples with moral questions like this all the time. It does not excuse one group of beings exploiting another group of sapient beings just because of differences in technological level. It consistently, and correctly, comes down against that sort of exploitation. Quote:
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I don't see any particular need for the Incubators to face "retribution" in the third movie, because in the new Madoka-World their impact is far less dangerous (and potentially a net positive for humanity, in fact). Their threat has been largely neutralized, and that's what matters. But that doesn't mean that viewers can't or shouldn't make moral judgements on the actions of the Incubators (particularly pre-MadokaWorld). Viewers have every right to do that. Viewers have every right to not accept what the Incubators did pre-MadokaWorld, just like Akito_Kinomoto doesn't accept it, to his credit.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-07-26 at 00:38. |
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2012-07-26, 01:55 | Link #346 | |||||
The True Culprit
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Does that justify it, or make it okay? That's an entirely subjective call. Quote:
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Those animals, however, still have QUALIA. They can suffer, and they can feel pain, and they don't want to die and be slaughtered for our personal vanity or our meals or for our entertainment. The Incubators only persecute other lifeforms in a way that benefits literally everyone. Maybe not individuals, but humanity as a species would probably appreciate not getting snuffed out by the end of the universe billions of years down the line, assuming we live that long. Interestingly, though, humans don't generally consider 'qualia' an important qualifier for moral agency and accountability. What are the Incubator's standards? They treat people with emotions in their culture as being mentally ill. Maybe they think we are legitimately inferior beings that can't take care of ourselves. They're not entirely unjustified for thinking so, and I can see why they would think we, with our illogical behaviors and judgment skills, would think we're essentially mentally retarded. Quote:
The incubators don't even understand what the PROBLEM is, Kyubey mentioning that more of us are born by the second. Since they don't have emotions, they don't seem to understand by what measure we use to distinguish people we love from strangers. They don't understand the loss we experience. THEY DON'T UNDERSTAND. They are genuinely ignorant of the harm they are doing. In almost every philosophy of moral agency, this makes them exempt from proper prosecution, like a child isn't prosecuted as "accountable" for their actions. Just food for thought. But I think calling the Incubators "villains" is preposterous since they bear humanity no ill will and would really rather we prosper into the stars as their partners, if possible. They seem to consider themselves our allies.
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2012-07-26, 02:55 | Link #347 | |
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Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: eastern europe :(
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Last edited by woxx; 2012-07-26 at 03:16. |
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2012-07-26, 03:39 | Link #348 |
The True Culprit
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Ultimate Gretchen isn't really the same as Kriemheld Gretchen. The Witch that would've consumed all universes was a being born of Madoka taking the suffering of every Witch, ever, when she made her final wish.
Kriemheld Gretchen is just Madoka's OWN grief, the Witch of Salvation.
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2012-07-26, 07:30 | Link #352 | ||||||||||||
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If entropy was a pressing problem, even if it was no more than a thousand years away, your argument might at least have some value as a cold, inescapable calculus. But entropy is not a pressing problem. The Incubators have extremely ample time to try to find a less harmful way of fighting entropy. But they don't bother to, because they clearly don't care about victimizing innocent people, or wiping out the entire human race for that matter. That is what makes their actions evil, and that is what makes them villainous characters, imo. Quote:
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I mean, it's even worst than what loan-sharks do. Quote:
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We recognize that there is some value in sentience alone. Quote:
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Even if they don't have emotions, the Incubators know enough to realize that they are causing harm by human standards. Quote:
That sort of callous disregard for the welfare of humanity might as well be ill-will, and it's why it's not preposterous to view the Incubators as villains. What is preposterous is viewing them as heroes. Amoral and evil are one and the same in the eyes of many people, including me. A person without any moral values whatsoever is an evil person, in my opinion.
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-07-26 at 08:03. |
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2012-07-26, 07:57 | Link #353 |
It's yuri, bitches
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Israel
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You make it sound as if someone has to be a cartoon villain and declare "I'm evil, BUHAAHAHA!" in order to be evil. Reality doesn't work like that. In real life, evil people believe they do good or simply don't care.
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2012-07-26, 11:38 | Link #354 | ||||||||||||||
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Even if we assume that only planets we can see are capable of life, and assuming, say, 1% of them have human-like civilizations on them, that's still BILLIONS. Quote:
Which is entirely what Kyubey is used as, first and foremost. Quote:
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And that's something very interesting. The Incubators think humans should have no problem being utterly selfless and self-sacrificing. They are holding us to a higher moral standard than we ourselves hold to. Quote:
No one asks. Kyubey would gladly tell them and not hold back. Teenage girls are idiots. Quote:
We can't judge the Incubators from basic human premises about ANYTHING because of insufficient information. Nothing about the human outlook, including our logic and morality, is objective. It's a construct we made. Our logic may touch on some universal truths, but it is also faulty and imperfect. Hell, for all we know, the Incubators have deduced with perfect omniscient logic that the most valuable thing in the universe is Cheese, and they fight entropy to maximize the Cheese ratio of the universe. Quote:
They know things like despair are 'bad', but they don't understand it. It's too far removed from their experience for them to grasp it, making it to the same to them as you're accusing entropy of being to beings like us. Quote:
Not that they CARE, but once it happened there was nothing they could do. I can't blame them for bailing on something completely out of their hands regardless of their culpability in causing it. Quote:
The Incubators do not fit that. They're more like a hurricane or an earthquake or a stampeding herd of bulls, but intelligent. We have every right to be upset over the damage they cause, and it really does suck, but we cannot morally judge them by our standards. Also, way to go exploiting a recent tragedy to make an unfair and emotionally charged accusation at my moral character as if I'm excusing serial murder. That's classy. Quote:
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The Incubators, from their perspective, are doing what is absolutely necessary to save the process of life and civilization. They cull some of us for survival, but they're also fairly humane. They offer us the chance to reap the benefits of this system, are more upstraight and reasonable than they have to be, and don't force anyone into anything. All these girls literally bring it on themselves because they trust something without properly testing it's trustworthiness. Humans are kind of stupid. Quote:
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You're right though, you can be evil while thinking you are good. I don't believe the Incubators can qualify for that though because they are not equipped to realize the ramifications of their actions. They are not accountable in the same way a child isn't accountable. And really, this whole topic is assuming the Incubators are literally the same species as their masters. I personally think they're basically robots sent by their masters, and thus might not have free will like you and I do.
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2012-07-26, 12:06 | Link #355 | |
It's yuri, bitches
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Israel
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2012-07-26, 12:34 | Link #356 | ||||||||||
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It's not unreasonable for viewers of a fictional narrative to make assessments based strictly on the narrative content available to them. After all, that narrative content (in its entirety) is supposed to be sufficient for assessing characters, and understanding the story. If later reveals call for a new assessment of certain characters, then I'll make that new assessment then. Perhaps the third Madoka movie will cast the Incubators in a more favorable light. If so, I'll likely see them more like you do... after the movie. For now, I'll work with what I have. Quote:
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I'm inclined to believe that the Incubators are at some level cognizant of the harm that they are causing. But even if they're not, even if they're robots, their actions are still harmful enough to warrant some degree of moral outrage. Mostly, I'm just defending people being upset with them. Quote:
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The Incubators actions are frequently harmful and decidedly risky, and they have yet to be proven heroic. Quote:
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2012-07-26, 12:43 | Link #357 |
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Join Date: Mar 2008
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We can see the relationship between incubators and humans as the relationship between adults and childs, were adults to terrible harmful things ot children now, like giving the vaccines but much later down the road that vaccine will prevent the child from dying.
in the case of the incubators, they are preventing the death of the whole universe, if they do nothing, the universe will die, bad end, period. if humanity manages to last billions of years and thus have a population of trillions all those trillions of humans will die; we also have to add to that all the other civilizations that exist in the universe. |
2012-07-26, 12:48 | Link #358 | ||
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Also, there's not much good in vaccinating a person if the vaccination itself is going to kill them (i.e. what I've said repeatedly about Kriemheld Gretchen). Quote:
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Last edited by Triple_R; 2012-07-26 at 13:17. |
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2012-07-26, 15:42 | Link #360 | |
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Humanity as a whole would have been killed by Kriemheld Gretchen. So, going by your analogy, that would be like the parent vaccinating the child with a vaccine that kills the child.
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madoka magica, movie |
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