2010-09-14, 07:58 | Link #1321 | |
Dea ex Kakera
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At any rate, I just did a quick scan through episodes 8-10 of the anime to see if I could spot any visual clues about master key shenanigans. Unlike the VN, the master keys are drawn as single keys, and they aren't obviously different in structure beyond what I'd attribute to animation issues. Battler saw Kanon's key when Nanjo got it out of Jessica's pocket, and he saw Genji's, Shannon's, and Gohda's lined up next to each other later when Rosa confiscated them. I'm not sure if he got a good look at the ones Rosa found in the servants' room, so their appearance there might have been Rosa's lie, but there's no good way to tell. Looking at these scenes again made me wonder what would have happened if Battler hadn't managed to exonerate Kanon. Would someone have pointed the master key out, or was it left in Jessica's pocket by accident and Battler derailed some other plan by noticing it?
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2010-09-14, 08:24 | Link #1322 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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It's like when you need to guess a number. What is better? To be in a state where you can think that X could be anything from 0 to infinite or to know it must be from 0 to 18? I think that just to know X<=18 is a tremendously important hint, definitely valuable and not misdirecting at all. As for Nanjo, I do not believe at all that the time trick is the correct answer.
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2010-09-14, 08:29 | Link #1323 | ||
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And she handles her GMing pretty nicely: "You don't intend to proclaim any of their deaths in red now, do you?" "Of course I won't. Unlike that dolt Beato, I don't give red out for free!" "No wa~y♪ I'm not falling for that provocation! The red truth is only useful if you use it with flash, right? I'll take a single truth out of a large pile of blue and smash it with the red! Then, the rest of the blue truths will be swallowed up by darkness before you can find out whether they were right or wrong!" "That darkness is the world of witches! You won't be given any truth at all! Ehheheheheheheheheheheheheh!!" "......Repeat iiiiiit...? Even though I'm nice enough to give you all this red for free? Aren't you being a bit greedy? I'm not an idiot like Beato, so I won't go around saying everything my opponent tells me to repeat..." Proclaiming something in red is extremely disadvantageous for the witch side, so Lambda can't possibly try to win like that. It's Bern who constructed all those reds in the end. I'm not saying that Beato does that for every possibility. In this case it won't be a game. She wants Battler to reach the truth by himself and just merely directing his thoughts, turning him away from the wrong ones by denying them. Quote:
It's not a misdirection in this case, though. Before that point Battler always tried to blame some unknown 19th person X. She tries to finally make him think about what's presented to him and stop to invent useless tricks. Without directly revealing the answer, of course. Or should she have said "there are 16 people, try to guess who's dead and who's playing two roles"? |
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2010-09-14, 08:30 | Link #1324 | |
Dea ex Kakera
Join Date: Jun 2006
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For the other puzzle, do you believe that Beatrice!Yasu murdered Nanjo, or did you come up with another idea?
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2010-09-14, 08:54 | Link #1325 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Giving partial informations and giving misdirections is not the same thing.
Giving only vague hints is perfectly logical from the situation of someone that wants you to solve a riddle. You don't want to give a hint that would make solving the riddle a trivial matter. What does it mean that beatrice didn't give to Battler what he asked for? Why would Beatrice want to present the answer on a silver platter? What would have happened if Beatrice told Battler that "there are 17 people"? Battler would have had no choice but to conclude that someone among the 18 wasn't there, but he had to reach that conclusion alone and not because of Beatrice's flat out declarations. At that time Battler didn't suspect at all that there were less people, he suspected there were more. That red served the intended purpose without revealing anything more than what was necessary. Even so... personally I think that the mere fact that she refused to state that there were 18 people, was a hint that there were less. Quote:
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2010-09-14, 09:34 | Link #1326 |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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Also for the record, my solution to the coffin room is the following:
-There are only two possible solutions to the closed room. Let's look at the first possibility: Natsuhi locked the room and then sent the key off somewhere. This is impossible. That Natsuhi would send the keys away from the room, and that Beatrice was relying on that small possibility for her closed room to work...It's no use. It's impossible. Therefore...Prepare for the Golden Age strike. I'm going old school in this locked room. When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth. Now, we have eliminated the possibility of Natsuhi locking her room using a key. What is it that remains? Of course, that she got hurt, the criminal ran away, and she locked her room. Her coffin was indeed a closed room. After all, from the moment it was made, death was unavoidable. But how did she lock that room? It can only be locked with keys! Did Rosa or George lock it? No. They have alibis. Then how? # No method exists by which the door can be locked from the outside without using a key # Regarding the window, no method exists by which it could somehow be locked from the outside # # it is impossible to unlock the door without a key to the servants' room or the master key However...That red is very careful. It says that the doors can only be unlocked with a key. This is where we fell into the witch's illusion. We assumed that it meant "the room can only be locked with a key." That is wrong. The truth is that a room that can only be unlocked by a key can still be locked by something else. It's not uncommon for doors to have a simple lock system from the inside. I propose that Natsuhi was dying once she locked herself in the room, in order to protect herself from the murderer. She made her own coffin. A coffin is a closed room. But it doesn't matter, because the one inside it is going to die without any interference either way. Last edited by Will Wright; 2010-09-14 at 09:44. |
2010-09-14, 09:59 | Link #1328 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Will I don't understand what kind of reasoning is that. Actually I'm not even sure what are you talking about.
We are supposed to talk about the second game's 4th, 5th and 6th twilight right? Why are you talking about Natsuhi? I also do not understand your statement about "the room can only be locked with a key". The red specifies "from the outside", and even the magic scene itself showed that the door of Natsuhi's room definitely has an internal manual lock. There isn't even a trick here, it was an apparent fact.
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2010-09-14, 10:00 | Link #1329 |
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Too bad there was no Natsuhi in this case, because she was sitting in the chapel with her stomach cut open.
You don't have to be a Golden Age expert to propose that the door was locked by a manual lock. In fact, Gohda did so many times in the fantasy scene, when they were killed. The problem here is the stakes and the wounds on the corpses. Shannon had a head wound with a stake lying nearby. Gohda had a stake in his back, so he couldn't have stabbed himself and George had a stake in his stomach. It would be hard for the culprit to take down three people, stake them, make a total disorder in the room and leave, while the victim - George closes the door behind him. |
2010-09-14, 10:03 | Link #1330 | |||
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As for the overpower 3 people, it's just a matter of where they were killed and when their bodies were moved. |
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2010-09-14, 10:10 | Link #1331 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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No, Gohda's chest was gouged, not his back. The game specifically mentions that Gohda was face-down, but Battler had to inspect it closely to see the cause of death.
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2010-09-14, 10:15 | Link #1332 | ||
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2010-09-14, 10:18 | Link #1333 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Okay Will, but so far I failed to understand how you solved the closed room of Episode2.
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2010-09-14, 10:18 | Link #1334 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
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2010-09-14, 10:22 | Link #1336 | ||
Dea ex Kakera
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2010-09-14, 10:25 | Link #1337 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
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So let me get this straight.
You basically say that someone got "stabbed" and closed the room from inside after the culprit left? Well, the key to Natsuhi's room was found inside, so this scenario could be possible even if the manual lock didn't exist. Anyway if this is what you mean, it's nothing very new. This solution has been speculated since a long while.
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2010-09-14, 10:27 | Link #1338 | |
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We've discussed this already few pages back. In the anime he's lying face up and the stake is in his heart. But it's in George's heart too, so that proves how reliable anime is. |
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2010-09-14, 10:44 | Link #1340 |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
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Anatomically, you cannot call "chest" when someone is showing you their back at all.
What's behind the chest is the human's back. Otherwise, people would have said that Jessica was gouged to the chest, which is obviously wrong.
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