Can Itachi Beat Yondaime

[Half 1/2 Demon]

I have examines the arguments. And its pretty obvious from Vindi's post that itachi in fact did not have a full fledged fight or anything even close to it as rurik tries to prove unsuccessfully.

Y-l makes a point that you would try to play it smart instead. he planned this out he did decide it on that that. from the scans Vindi shows i agree with vindi's point. however, rurik it was pretty bad of you of only showing one scan and thinking you can get away with it.

itachi is my favorite character and i know they showed him killing the uchiha's as sign of his capabilities. but i dont agree that even close to half of them were able to fight back. from the scans and points vindi makes its obvious you cant see this as a "black and white scenerio".

in the end. good try. but you fail to prove vindi's points. i see your replies as going around his points and creating other reasons in your head to prove your points.

Itachi still owns yondaime tho

[Mr. Johnny 5]

There are many points where Yondaime would win against Itachi.

Both are awesome genius shinobi...meaning both will (try) "find a way" to defeat the other.

Though their time is very limited in a battle.

We've seen little from both but the fact is that Itachi ran 2 times away while the 4th seemed completly unharmed during the entire Kakashi Gaiden. Unlike Itachi he didnt seem to run out of stamina or chakra. (so i think 4th has alot more chakra)

Though we do know that Mangekyou Sharingan's Tsukyomi & Ameterasu are superior jutsu's they probably wont work on kage lvl fighters.

The only kage lvl fighter who was stupid enough seems the cocky Orochimaru who probably (in my opinion definetly) got hit by Tsukyomi.

---------------------------------------------------------------4th----------------------------------------------

- 4th became Hokage and dealt with Uchiha's in his own time (chuunin exam definetly had uchiha's) Uchiha in his own squad.
- 4th probably grew in overal strength in a fast rate...

----------------------------------------------------Itachi-------------------------------------------------

Itachi seems somehow on his peak or near it...regardless his age.
His power growth from age 8 to 13 was enormous...now with him around 18-20 seems almost equal to his power 5-7 years ago.

But you guys got to admit....no matter how you look at it.
"If Uchiha Itachi avoids fighting Jiraiya of the legendary Sannin then you cant even imagine Itachi facing the 4th Hokage"

Especially based on reputation then Itachi would never try to confront the 4th.

The fact that Itachi ran away from Jiraiya means he lacked confidence to continue...also 3 years without another attempt seems enough to make an opinion about Itachi's real abilities compared to Jiraiya.

[Yondaime-Legacy]

You make very good points Mr. Johnny


Itachi is in Jiraiya's lvl. I think Jiraiya is more powerful then Oro but since he doesnt care about power much it seems like hes less powerful.

Isnt it funny tho. so far we see 3 characters (2 being very powerful) copy yondaime's technique. i wonder if naruto will learn the hiraishin no jutsu. that would just blow me away. i wanna see that in action.

surotobi-deathgod
jiraiya-rasengan
naruto-rasengan

[tkdtiger]

I think Jiraiya is more powerful then Oro and at the same level as Itachi. I think Kisame told Itachi that he could beat Jiraiya is based on the fact that Kisame's w/ Itachi and Naruto and Sasuke aren't of concern...thus it's 2 vs 1, but Itachi knows his own strength and weakness so when he says that they would wind up killing each other then I think Itachi knows what he's talking about. Itachi did say that only a person with a Sharingan could defeat him...well I look at it like this...If Jiraiya and Itachi kills each other then Itachi was not defeated...both of them tied : P

[tatami]

it must be a sign of stupity still telling itachi run away...yes jiraiya is strong and very confident and itachi avoided fighting.but it is not because he feared,it would be a pointless battle also too many ninjas and possibly anbus could get in the fight,maybe entire village...

itachi vs yondaime with full power and chakrta may result in many different way...my vote goes to yondaime cuz of his chakra and stamina also his uncopyable jutsus...

[Sinaura]

The best Itachi could hope for in a fight against Yondaime is a draw, in which both ninjas get sucked up into the Death god's stomach. Yep, the great debate has been soloved, right here. If Yondaime somehow has NO way of defeating Itachi, he would consider Itachi an uber threat to the leaf village and everyone else and thus sacrifice himsef again to seal Itachi with him in that wonderful place somewhere between the Death god's heart and pyloric sphictor. Yeah and this stomach isn't like some mere mortal stomach of a giant, mountain frog, it's the friggin death god.

[Kotengu]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Both are awesome genius shinobi...meaning both will (try) "find a way" to defeat the other.

We've seen little from both but the fact is that Itachi ran 2 times away while the 4th seemed completly unharmed during the entire Kakashi Gaiden. Unlike Itachi he didnt seem to run out of stamina or chakra. (so i think 4th has alot more chakra)

Though we do know that Mangekyou Sharingan's Tsukyomi & Ameterasu are superior jutsu's they probably wont work on kage lvl fighters.

This is your best point. And I pretty much agree. Itachi seems a little more reserved about going all out against his oponents than Yondaime did.(not that we've seen either) And even thou we didn't see Yondi fight against any one of kage lvl, he did ownz a jounin pretty hard(even thou itachi ownzd three). It seems like he could get really screwed if he tries to use MS and it misses. That would be the key to Yonidaime victory. I mean look what happened to Kakashi when he used a makeshift version. And yeah I think Itachi knows that Kage/Sanin lvl fighters can prolly come up with a way to avoid the MS, which is why he's hesitant to fight against anyone that can (Guy/Jirya).

Dont get me wrong. I still think Yondaime hasn't shown us anything that would secure his victory over Itachi's haxed sharingan. Power is power, no matter where it comes from. Sasuke didn't do worse against Garra than lee even thou he got faster the 'easy' way. But I still vote Yondi in the end

[tkdtiger]

I don't think it was a sign of stupidity. I don't think Itachi was afraid of Jiraiya, because I don't think Itachi is afraid of dying. I think he thought it would be a pointless fight too, but he atleast sees Jiraiya as his equal. And he says that they both at best would be killed. So he had no reason to fight Jiraiya and the best solution was to leave. I just don't think it's only because of Jiraiya's reputation that Itachi says this, but because he knows his own strength and weaknesses and he's not stupid. He knows that Jiraiya prob. has something that would kill them both or would be able to keep up with him. In other words Itachi very well knows what he said and like I said I keep what Kisame says with a grain of salt. Kisame isn't exactly headstrong like Itachi is, but rather appears to be reckless and impatient. Although I think Itachi could be basing this to a Jiraiya who is in his prime and since Jiraiya is def. no longer in his prime who knows

[Kotengu]

Originally Posted by tkdtiger

I don't think it was a sign of stupidity. I don't think Itachi was afraid of Jiraiya, because I don't think Itachi is afraid of dying. I think he thought it would be a pointless fight too, but he atleast sees Jiraiya as his equal. And he says that they both at best would be killed. So he had no reason to fight Jiraiya and the best solution was to leave.

Good point as well. I think that in addition to not wanting to fight someone as powerful as Big J at that moment, he also took into account his possition. he was inside and entire battle ground that Jirya had complete control over. Even if you had MS, you would be hardpressed to fight someone who can control your entire enviornment(without even looking!!). Pluss how would MS work against summons? there were way too many factors for that fight, and that's why I think Itachi opt'd for the exit.

IMO that was a very good sign of itachi's common sense level, and is probably why oro feels he can't take him(yet). As you wouldn't want to fight someone to a stalemate, you would want to crush them. In the end all oro said was that he 'can't beat itachi'. Not that Itachi could beat him.

[Hohenheim of Legend]

BAN-KAI and itachi as well as yodaime is dead. END OF STORY.

[Hohenheim of Legend]

In the anime yodaime sealed kyubi in a frontal confrontation, not sneaking around as others had stated. In the japanese folklore Kyubi is stated as the most powerful. We're all here talking about sealing and what not the other bijis but those bijis are NOTHING compared to Kyubi. Yodaime sealed the baddest of them all. Kyubi is the one with unlimited chakra which logically makes Yodaime more bad *** and MOST STRONGEST. I mean Itachi is very powerful and cooler (lol sorry IMO) but someone here stated that he isn't more spoken about than the hero who saved the village and kept it thriving. Yodaime is a LEGEND. Clearly we won't know but opinionly speaking ICHIGO WILL OWNED...alright sorry Yodaime might have a clear victory.

On another note Yodaime-Legacy raised a very interesting theory that could be started as another thread: Yodaime might be the head of the Akatsuki Organization. This is all speculation but please don't shot me for it. Look at the silhouette of the leader. Compared his hair to Yodaime....no? maybe so?


http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rth_Hokage.jpg

[Yondaime-Legacy]

haha. i actually think the chances of the akatsuki leader being yondaime is 1 out of a 100

yup 1% faith in it being true. even though it would make a good suprise. the chances are very slim since we have such a "good guy" perspective of Yondaime that it would seem bizarre and confuse even the most hardcore fans.

in all honesty. lets hope it isnt him.


Tho Yondaime is still alive.... thats for sure!!!

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Yondaime-Legacy

[B]Lol Uchiha rurik your replies are so nonsensical its not even funny. all your doing is making assumptions with a dust of evidence that i even doubt could be favored on your side. On the otherhand Vindi gave you full proof as well as i did with my post explaining that Itachi is not a dumba** like you. you see, you as a ninja would probably fight your way in the morning on a bright and sunny day with everyone alert as ever. however, itachi is not you or Kishi did not make him empty headed as you. he gave us enough evidence through the manga that itachi played it smart not like an a**. you never answered my question as to what a ninja would do. a ninja plans accordingly. he doesnt wait for his oppenant to attack or would want to notify others. yes itachi wanted to test his abilities, but he wouldnt even dare trying to notify all of konoho into the fight. the little fire and windows you see broken, they could imply a small resistence of the higher leveled ninjas. however you wont believe it. ever hear of the saying : A picture is worth a thousand words". unless you find a direct solid quote of kishi saying or implying a 100% without any doubt that the "uchiha's were no match for itachi when they fought him headstrong" then what you say remains a theory or a dillusion i would say, of your mind.

-You saw How 3 of the best Uchiha could not do anything about; Any other Uchiha would have been the same.

-I not taking away that Itachi had the element of Surprise in his hand, but that’s different than saying that All of then Died without making a resistance, AS I said before, We don’t know the exact number of those who fought, We don’t know the number of those who did by a surprise.

-People still Neglect that Itachi was testing his capacities, I found Funny how this is overlooked.

-Unlike you, Vindi's posts do make sense, and you should read our post before making a comment like that, your grudge towards me is already known, So you will always disagree with anything I say.

Iam quite sick of arguing with rurik. he/she is just stubborn as hell to prove that he/she is an expert in manga translations. i really despise people who just dont call it quits when they got everything against them.
All iam saying is just to end the stubborness and call it quits. cuz i know you wont believe vindi89 or me. even if we threw in kishimoto himself to reply to you.

Vindi89 i suggest you dont waste your time on him by replying to his ignorant posts. he's not going to stop. but if you wish to then go ahead its going to be a tough persuasion .

Vindi and I debates are about opinions, it seems you did not like me correcting you before so that’s why you are sick of arguing with me.

Originally Posted by Half 1/2 Demon

]I have examines the arguments.

Yes, And cows can fly.

And its pretty obvious from Vindi's post that itachi in fact did not have a full fledged fight or anything even close to it as rurik tries to prove unsuccessfully.

Well if the bodies lying with Kunais in the ground and Kunais scattered all over the place is not an implication of a full fledge fight, then I really don’t know what is.

Y-l makes a point that you would try to play it smart instead. he planned this out he did decide it on that that. from the scans Vindi shows i agree with vindi's point. however, rurik it was pretty bad of you of only showing one scan and thinking you can get away with it.

And you should read my post before coming up with this comment: I said, we can’t really tell because there are 2 or 3 different representation of the Masacre- I never stated “mines are the only truth” neither I denied those showed by Vindi, but those are well known to everybody, but no so with the one I showed – That were neglected by you and Yondayme-Legacy.

itachi is my favorite character and i know they showed him killing the uchiha's as sign of his capabilities. but i dont agree that even close to half of them were able to fight back. from the scans and points vindi makes its obvious you cant see this as a "black and white scenerio".

They were not able to fight back because Itachi was that good compared to them, Question, did the 3 Jounnin Police officer could fought back when Itachi beat them to the ground, even when they Had their Sharingan on?

in the end. good try. but you fail to prove vindi's points. i see your replies as going around his points and creating other reasons in your head to prove your points.

I’m not trying to prove vindis point, I’m disagreeing with Vindi, and stating the reasons, and this is what Forums are all about.

Vindi89

I Hope you continue this debate, or your observation about my points. so far, for someone who is new, you are good to debate with ^_^

[Hunter]

To Yondaime-Legacy.
This isn't about crying or feeling bad, your insults weren't even directed at me. It's just that this forum has rules, namely in this case Do not insult or harass other members.
I'm sure you can expose your point without using caps, calling people moron, idiot and such, so why not give it a try.

Then no I'm not going to explain when I'm sarcastic, if someone don't get it it's not that important isn't it? And anyway I do think it was kind of obvious here, just in case you didn't notice this very thread is about 12 pages of details nitpicking.
I think it's fun, I waste my time like that since years, but that doesn't change that people arguing over details of a shonen manga to discuss whose characters are stronger or not are kinda maniac yes.

About the anime and the manga I will be clear this time : you make peremptory yet wrong affirmations about things you don't know.
The anime team payed to be able to make a TV adaptation of Kishimoto's work. They can use the characters and the universe at their will. They are in no way bind to follow the plot exactly.
The anime can have another ending and/or change the overall story, this is what happened for Get Bakers, Full Metal Alchimist, Shingetsutan Tsukihime, Hellsing, Rurouni Kenshin, Flame of Recca just to name a few.
Then I didn't contradict my statement, you merely failed to understand it.
Let's quote what said :
While the anime is obviously connected to the manga the contrary isn't true, hence they aren't interconnected hence they are seperate entities.
Interconnect implies reciprocity which isn't the case here.

Tsunade needing 40 blows to take down Orochimaru instead of 1 is the same as Neji needing to use 40 times the 64 hands of hakke to shut down an opponent's chakra system. It just doesn't make sense.
Naruto summoning Gamabunta without Kyubi's feature against Gaara. Itachi not transforming his Sharingan into MS to use Tsukuyomi. Naruto not going to train with Jiraiya for age during the timeskip. Sakura gaining superstrength before she's trained with Tsunade. Naruto making flying Rasengan.

Spoiler:

Ninja in the movie using Ice jutsu whereas we know now it's a bloodline

, etc.
The point isn't even that these mistakes/changes don't make any sense, the problem is that they mean nothing. Whatever changes the anime makes, they will stand for nothing in the future plots... Except if they do decide to make their own story.

[Yondaime-Legacy]

i didnt even bother reading both of your post (hunter and rurik)

topic has already ended. you guys are pretty sad to still push your points through even though everything was laid out already. you guys have to seriously learn the meaning of ending a debate. once you put your points through theres no point of replying in series. if you guys would like i would reply again. but you know whats gonna happen your just gonna reply again with one your expert and genius answers and try your dearest to prove me and vindi wrong.... again

Rurik and Hunter both of you are constantly barking your answers through. enough is enough. you made your lousy points. we already started talking about something else but you guys have nothing better to do then go on with it. i


once again. shutup already. were already talking about something else.

your post will always remain ignorant, laughable, and irrational, at least to me.

post at your leisure. i know you have a lot of time on your hands.

[Yondaime-Legacy]

Originally Posted by Hohenheim of Legend

BAN-KAI and itachi as well as yodaime is dead. END OF STORY.

whats that?

are you talking about byukugan cuz thats pretty weak.

[Yondaime-Legacy]

Originally Posted by Kotengu

Good point as well. I think that in addition to not wanting to fight someone as powerful as Big J at that moment, he also took into account his possition. he was inside and entire battle ground that Jirya had complete control over. Even if you had MS, you would be hardpressed to fight someone who can control your entire enviornment(without even looking!!). Pluss how would MS work against summons? there were way too many factors for that fight, and that's why I think Itachi opt'd for the exit.

IMO that was a very good sign of itachi's common sense level, and is probably why oro feels he can't take him(yet). As you wouldn't want to fight someone to a stalemate, you would want to crush them. In the end all oro said was that he 'can't beat itachi'. Not that Itachi could beat him.

Your point of how MS might work on summons is a pretty tight question. if uchihas can supress kyubis chakra its through the sharingan. so i would imagine that there could be heavy blows on a summon. although its kinda funny seeing Gamabunta being placed on a moon and being stabbed for 3 days on a cross.
seriously imagine it lol. i know its sick. but funny at the same time.. lol poor frog becing crucified.

besides the joke. it would be interesting to see how a summon or a biju could be affected by the MS.

[Rurik]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

Itachi seems somehow on his peak or near it...regardless his age.
His power growth from age 8 to 13 was enormous...now with him around 18-20 seems almost equal to his power 5-7 years ago.

How can you actually know this Mr. Johnny? The databbook states that Itachi real powers are still unknonw, so it is really to quick to been saying that.

[Lollerpants]

Originally Posted by Mr. Johnny 5

We've seen little from both but the fact is that Itachi ran 2 times away while the 4th seemed completly unharmed during the entire Kakashi Gaiden. Unlike Itachi he didnt seem to run out of stamina or chakra. (so i think 4th has alot more chakra)

...Doesn't it ever occur that their point was not to slaughter everyone (the first time he ran away), Itachi clearly stated that he did not come to start a war so anymore fighting was nonesense, if you believe that he couldn't handle a few anbu/jounins + Gai + Asuma, then I think you're undermining Itachi.

The second time Kisame stated that Itachi could have taken on Jiraiya (if Sasuke did not appear I'm sure Itachi would have). Itachi makes his statements based more so on what he has heard prior to what he has seen.

Though we do know that Mangekyou Sharingan's Tsukyomi & Ameterasu are superior jutsu's they probably wont work on kage lvl fighters.

The only kage lvl fighter who was stupid enough seems the cocky Orochimaru who probably (in my opinion definetly) got hit by Tsukyomi.

IF anyone got hit, it seems more like Kabuto is the one that would be willing to "experience" something like that, what proof at ALL do you say that kage lvl fighters can "avoid" Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu in any way? Amaterasu was proved to be able to burn through basically another "absolute defense" if you will. If Itachi was behind Yondaime, and just blinks and used Amaterasu, do you think Yondaime would suddnely "know" and just teleport away? Only Byakugan would know if he was behind him anyways, but thats beyond the point.

---------------------------------------------------------------4th----------------------------------------------

- 4th became Hokage and dealt with Uchiha's in his own time (chuunin exam definetly had uchiha's) Uchiha in his own squad.
- 4th probably grew in overal strength in a fast rate...

I think you're somewhat forgetting that Itachi was even beyond any Uchiha expectations. Even though the clan is considered to be a "genius" clan, there is no way of knowing whether or not there were Uchihas in the 4th's time which were stronger/weaker than him. Plus, it doesn't really seem like Uchihas have any desire to become hokage in the first place, most seem to be wanting to be in the police force.

----------------------------------------------------Itachi-------------------------------------------------

Itachi seems somehow on his peak or near it...regardless his age.
His power growth from age 8 to 13 was enormous...now with him around 18-20 seems almost equal to his power 5-7 years ago.

But you guys got to admit....no matter how you look at it.

.....I don't see how you would know that, does it ever occur that maybe Itachi was just toying around post-time skip? Naruto got pwnt by his finger either way. I do think that Itachi may be an early bloomer, but I'm just stating how I think it's plausible that he has improved as well.

"If Uchiha Itachi avoids fighting Jiraiya of the legendary Sannin then you cant even imagine Itachi facing the 4th Hokage"

Especially based on reputation then Itachi would never try to confront the 4th.

The fact that Itachi ran away from Jiraiya means he lacked confidence to continue...also 3 years without another attempt seems enough to make an opinion about Itachi's real abilities compared to Jiraiya.

...? Itachi does not like meaningless confrontation except with Sasuke it seems. I'm sure if he had to he would have fight Jiraiya and might have killed him, same goes to the 4th, though it would seem out of character. It did not mean he lacked the confidence to continue, he stated that he did not need to rush with Naruto, and plus I think you're forgetting how many jutsus Itachi had used prior to his confrontation to Jiraiya. I also believe that Itachi likes to keep his level of power more hidden if he can, which is why he did not want to use Amaterasu.

As for showing Kakashi the MS, I think that was just to more or less, get rid of Kakashi faster without killing him.

[Mr. Johnny 5]

I'd say the chances are higher that this leader dude is Yondaimes former companion (the dude who looked like Sarutobi) then Yondaime himself.

If not then i'd say this guy might be related to the 4th but only because his level of jutsu. (Death God - Kinjutsu) The might had the same "Dark Sensei" (from who they learned this jutsu)

I dont think the 4th invented Shiki Fuujin aswell but learned it from someone just like this Leader dude might have...(or like i said it could've been the 4ths sensei)

Taking a demon and store it somewhere within a giant death god or hands of the death god.