(L) Genjitsu Shugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki (How a Realist Hero Rebuilt the Kingdom)

[BWTraveller]

OK, maybe I got the term wrong; didn't mean to start an argument over a terminology mistake. But whether they call it "wife" and "concubine" or "first wife" and "second wife", it doesn't change the fact that she is not allowed to be what Aisha, Liscia and Roroa are, with the same level of marital rights as them. I don't know how big a difference this makes; it might just mean that Souma cannot declare one of his second wives' children his heir. But I rather suspect that there would be some differences in how the ceremony goes for her all the same.

[Decel]

Odd (ie facepalm) dialogue here and there...

Liscia: *ahem* We need an heir.

Souma: Wait, I need a few more moves on my political chess board.

Talk about herbivore MC. My interest is running thin. I'll probably finish the season, but will skip a new season if one materializes.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

OK, maybe I got the term wrong; didn't mean to start an argument over a terminology mistake. But whether they call it "wife" and "concubine" or "first wife" and "second wife", it doesn't change the fact that she is not allowed to be what Aisha, Liscia and Roroa are, with the same level of marital rights as them.

I don't understand exactly what you guys are basing this assumption on? When has Juna been shown as "lesser" for any reason other than her idol career? Moreover, its a fucking power fantasy isekai in a supposedly egalitarian world.

From my understanding of the source the differences in rank are negligible, which is why I used the comparison of A rank vs S rank waifu. If that's hard to comprehend its on your biases, not me.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

I don't understand exactly what you guys are basing this assumption on? When has Juna been shown as "lesser" for any reason other than her idol career? Moreover, its a fucking power fantasy isekai in a supposedly egalitarian world.

From my understanding of the source the differences in rank are negligible, which is why I used the comparison of A rank vs S rank waifu. If that's hard to comprehend its on your biases, not me.

So you think there's no rank difference between stations specifically labeled as "First Wife" and "Second Wife", the first of which is forbidden for individuals who are not of high enough status? I don't mean she's to be treated any lesser, but the names and the restrictions make it pretty clear that there are differences in station. And I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned somewhere that the throne couldn't pass to a second wife's child.

Seriously, if there was absolutely no difference in rank of any kind then there would be no point in calling one "second". If you'd been paying attention, you'd notice I did say that there may be very little difference outside of succession, but it doesn't change the fact that a difference does exist. And no, her career has absolutely nothing to do with it and I never suggested such a thing. The issue is that the law of the land state that she is a commoner due to her father and thus cannot be a first wife to the king.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

So you think there's no rank difference between stations specifically labeled as "First Wife" and "Second Wife", the first of which is forbidden for individuals who are not of high enough status? I don't mean she's to be treated any lesser, but the names and the restrictions make it pretty clear that there are differences in station. And I'm pretty sure I saw it mentioned somewhere that the throne couldn't pass to a second wife's child.

Weren't you the one who was all about having tons and tons of "spares" a few weeks ago as far as justifying polygamy to begin with? How does that work with kids that have no right of succession?

You're clearly not paying attention to what I'm saying otherwise so I really have nothing else to add.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by stray

Weren't you the one who was all about having tons and tons of "spares" a few weeks ago as far as justifying polygamy to begin with? How does that work with kids that have no right of succession?

That's the advisors' reason for promoting polygamy, and a possible reason that a king might choose to have multiple wives. It's not a "justification", just a reason that a king or his advisors might promote the practice. That doesn't mean that just any woman's child will do. In fact, it's kind of confirmed in the show entirely by the fact that Juna is not eligible to be a First Wife. The way they describe it they say that she's the granddaughter of one of the three dukes, BUT she can't be a First Wife because her father was a commoner. Status of one's parents clearly plays a role in such matters, so of course it would in terms of succession. At the very least, it would be most likely that a child of a Second Wife would only become king if all the First Wives' children were deceased or otherwise removed from the line. Anyway, I don't have proof of anything, this's just speculation, but I don't get why you find it so objectionable that there would be any concrete difference in status for things referred to as "First" and "Second", things for which it is made clear that one has to be of a particularly high status to qualify for one but not the other. I'm not saying that she's in any way inferior or anything, just that there's most likely some degree of concrete distinction in the status and/or authority of the two.

You're clearly not paying attention to what I'm saying otherwise so I really have nothing else to add.

Amusing. I think that every time I reply to you. I'm not trying to be snide, I honestly feel like you shouldn't need to respond if I'd properly conveyed my thoughts.

[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

Amusing. I think that every time I reply to you. I'm not trying to be snide, I honestly feel like you shouldn't need to respond if I'd properly conveyed my thoughts.

I mean explaining yourself isn't going to help if we fundamentally disagree, but this time I'm specifically referring to the source. Which I'm really not trying to get into here so check your PM as I'm not into another toxic debate on this shitty series.

[BWTraveller]

First off, I need to apologize about the last part there. I'm usually better at reading things (at least I like to think I am) but I clearly misread that statement and thought that you were saying that I wouldn't be responding if I were paying attention to what you were saying. But I honestly didn't get what you're saying. That said, thank you for the PM as the excerpt does make things quite clear.

EDIT: upon checking the light novel itself, the excerpt sent was indeed in the middle of Souma handing out rewards for achievements during the war, meaning it was disclosed before our current location. If I understand right, it's acceptable to include information from the LN before the current location of the anime, so I'll include it here.

Spoiler:

TL;DR…

excerpt

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In short, originally there was a first, second, etc. queen and concubines, but this was changed to first, second etc. First Queens and then Second Queens. They are treated equally as the king's wives, but socially and politically their status is quite different. Anyone can be a Second Queen, from a princess to a slave, but only women of sufficient noble status can be First Queens. Second Queens have far fewer responsibilities and restrictions, but they also carry less authority as well. The right of succession to the throne passes in order of birth through the children of the first "First Queen", then the second, third etc. Children of Second Queens have high noble status, but they are not included in the line of succession and cannot inherit the throne.

So, a Second Queen does have a significantly different social status from a First Queen, but is viewed as equally the king's wife (as in not a concubine, I was mistaken there).

Additionally, in this section, some of the reasons that polygamy is accepted and Liscia even encourages Souma to marry Aisha are made clear. Succession may or may not play a part, but marriage for political expediency is still very much a thing and Souma has a good chance of ending up with wives basically thrust on him to cement connections with neighboring kingdoms. Liscia encourages Souma to marry Aisha then so that at the least, if strangers show up, the highest-ranking queens will be close companions she can trust.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by stray

I don't understand exactly what you guys are basing this assumption on? When has Juna been shown as "lesser" for any reason other than her idol career? Moreover, its a fucking power fantasy isekai in a supposedly egalitarian world.

They have hereditary royalty, hereditary nobility, and even a slave class. What about that is "supposedly egalitarian"?

From my understanding of the source the differences in rank are negligible, which is why I used the comparison of A rank vs S rank waifu. If that's hard to comprehend its on your biases, not me.

The difference is something we're told rather than shown, but that's because the anime isn't about protocol or inheritance law, and Souma's the type to eat in the canteen with the soldiers to save on food costs. That doesn't change the fact we're told.

Speaking of negligible differences, I don't know why you object to Secondary Queens being called concubines. To us, it's a distinction without a difference. There just was an unspecified change to an unspecified law, which created a new terminology in a fictional kingdom.

[stray]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Speaking of negligible differences, I don't know why you object to Secondary Queens being called concubines. To us, it's a distinction without a difference. There just was an unspecified change to an unspecified law, which created a new terminology in a fictional kingdom.

Concubines were not royalty, in fact they were often slaves. Second wives here are considered queens. Being belligerent isn't making you right and isn't making me want to deal with you further, either. You're just trolling at this point, the thread has been modded enough, so please kindly fuck off.

[BWTraveller]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

They have hereditary royalty, hereditary nobility, and even a slave class. What about that is "supposedly egalitarian"?



The difference is something we're told rather than shown, but that's because the anime isn't about protocol or inheritance law, and Souma's the type to eat in the canteen with the soldiers to save on food costs. That doesn't change the fact we're told.

Speaking of negligible differences, I don't know why you object to Secondary Queens being called concubines. To us, it's a distinction without a difference. There just was an unspecified change to an unspecified law, which created a new terminology in a fictional kingdom.

I'd go with Second Queens. This is apparently something that was made a point of in the original, as you can see in the excerpt attached above. And as it shows, in the LN it's all explicitly defined.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I'd go with Second Queens. This is apparently something that was made a point of in the original, as you can see in the excerpt attached above. And as it shows, in the LN it's all explicitly defined.

And in High School of the Dead, they don't call the zombies zombies. They're still zombies. Sure, I'm willing to use the series' terminology and call them "Secondary Queens" (but not Second Queen, because it's confusing. Are you talking about Juna or Aisha, the Second Primary Queen?), just like I'm willing to call giant mechs "Mobile Suits" in Gundam, but that's not the same as saying calling them "concubine" is wrong.

Originally Posted by stray

Concubines were not royalty, in fact they were often slaves. Second wives here are considered queens. Being belligerent isn't making you right and isn't making me want to deal with you further, either. You're just trolling at this point, the thread has been modded enough, so please kindly fuck off.

Speaking of belligerent...

[EroKing]

NSFW

Megami

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[stray]

Originally Posted by BWTraveller

I'd go with Second Queens. This is apparently something that was made a point of in the original, as you can see in the excerpt attached above. And as it shows, in the LN it's all explicitly defined.

As much as I shit on the series' world building it at least thought out the wife situation to make things more equitable. One of the bright spots I'm willing to acknowledge, even though I'm still iffy on the series portrayal of polygamy in general.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

And in High School of the Dead, they don't call the zombies zombies. They're still zombies.

They don't call them zombies in The Walking Dead either; zombie movies don't exist in zombie fiction because if it did everyone would know what to do when the dead start rising. Here the source specifically states concubinage existed and was abandoned for a reason, which is why I corrected BW in the first place and sent him an excerpt from the source. If you just like the word I don't know what to tell you, but if you come at me with hostility I'm going to return your hostility in kind.

Anyway I still think the differences in rank are fairly negligible beyond succession, and there shouldn't be an issue as far as a group wedding, but I guess its possible some differences may come up in the future.

[CrowKenobi]

I’d like to step in and say that while the current discussion hasn’t gone of the rails (yet), please be respectful in your replies to other people’s posts.

Having a difference of opinion is fine, but letting your frustration get in the way cheapens your argument.

[Itlandm]

Actually there is nothing wrong with having two or more neighboring nations with a shared king and a shared foreign and mercantile administration. Norway and Sweden had this from 1814 to 1905, and the Kalmar Union of the late Middle Ages saw Norway, Sweden and Denmark united under one queen after a couple generations of dynastic marriages. These unions were temporary, but they served their purpose for a while at least.

Having the two countries merge in practice under a single king with two queens without formally challenging the Mankind Declaration would probably have been less confrontational to the rest of the world and less likely to weaken the resolve of humanity against the demons, even if they planned to complete the merger at a later date. But maybe all this is related to the mysterious cliffhanger ending.

[Strahan]

Maybe the confusion about Juna being a lesser wife is from the elf guy saying she could be a consort, but that was just him. Souma never made any indication she would be of a lesser standing, and he specifically referred to being a wife.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Ok, so explain to me what the difference between a wife and a concubine is, and why it matters.

A concubine typically doesn't have the same rights and privileges of a wife, and can be of lower social status. As stray mentioned, it wasn't uncommon for them to be slaves.
Like a noble wouldn't typically marry a peasant, but the peasant could be a concubine. Useful when one needs heirs but has a wife that cannot produce them. It doesn't necessarily mean they have to be regarded poorly or anything; depends on the culture and the specifics of the parties too.

[Frontier]

Souma's just chilling with his Royal Harem and mulling over how they need more personnel to handle all the bureaucracy. Him and Liscia resting their heads on a kotatsu is so adorable .

Slavery is terrible. It's the worst thing you can do to a human being. That's understood, but it's still practiced in this world, and Friedonia is unfortunately no exception, if the slave collars they used on the prisoners of war didn't already indicate that

We meet Ginger Camus (voiced by Yumi Uchiyama?) a young man who has inherited a bunch of slaves from his grandfather, but he wants nothing to do with it. His grandfather may have treated the slaves well enough, but still...slaves. Although it's not like the slaves have much better to look forward to given the likelihood they'll just be sold off for manual labor and separated from their family .

So the best thing Ginger can come up with to do with them is to clean them, educate them, and take care of them while trying to find the best homes to sell them off too. I mean, I guess he's trying to do the best he can in the situation, but it feels like it's just trying to dress up and make pretty what is still basically selling off slaves .

Souma expecting more from nobleman's like properly running their domains means there's a huge demand for people who can do the kind of logistics work that they can't do themselves, hence the need for Ginger's slaves who can do that kind of work. Hopefully they're desperate enough to actually treat their slaves well .

Souma incognito tries to buy off San from Ginger, but after a whole episodes worth of relationship development, Ginger can't bear to be apart from her. And Souma's secret test of character leads to an unexpectedly intimate moment between Souma and Ginger. Also, apparently those glasses really work .

Well, yeah, of course Souma wants to abolish slavery, but I guess it's not going to be easy and he doesn't want to incite a Friedonia Civil War, so he's trying to transition the slaves from being, well, slaves to basically employee's and civil servants (which is what he wanted to be to begin with). So going from literal slaves to wage slaves, I guess, which considering Souma is from Japan...well, I hope they at least ditch the slave collars .

[stray]

Is taking collars off hard or something? Carla is still wearing hers even though Souma is supposedly against slavery and not-Raphtalia is still wearing one even while Ginger pronounces she's totally not a slave.

Also, wasn't that whip used for comic relief just two episodes ago? This series really struggles with sensitive topics.

[Frontier]

Originally Posted by stray

Is taking collars off hard or something? Carla is still wearing hers even though Souma is supposedly against slavery and not-Raphtalia is still wearing one even while Ginger pronounces she's totally not a slave.

Also, wasn't that whip used for comic relief just two episodes ago? This series really struggles with sensitive topics.

To be honest I wish they hadn't brought slavery into this show at all because I don't think it fits tonally nor have they properly addressed it with the level of gravity it deserves.